50 yards groups

[canuck4570]

I have access to a 50 yards range for the winther .... correct me if I am wrong .... to judge a 50 yards group is ..... if it group half inche at 50 than it will group 1 inche at 100 yards.....

[versifier]

...and generally 2" @ 200, and 3" @ 300, etc. I have observed some loads that print 1/2" @ 50 and still 1/2" @ 100, but most follow the logically predictable rule. Why the occasional anomaly? I don't know. It probably depends more on the load and the individual barrel. There seems to be no clear line between art and science sometimes, just a gray area.

[Bass Ackward]

Aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh. Maybe. Theoretically, yes, but still maybe.

Some handgun loads can do 2 or 3 inches at 50 and won't hit an 8X11 sheet of paper at 100. Then you have sound barrier problems to deal with.

While I have never seen rifle loads that bad, (I don't use wide meplats or super fast powders) they can and will open up at some range because of simple aerodynamics. Or worse .... key hole. The wider the nose, the more twist rate you need to stabilize it at longer distances.

Bottom line is that you just have to try everything at the maximum range you want to shoot and see what happens. As a general rule, the slower for cartridge powder that you select, the longer the accurate range will be too. I assume that is because you are being as gentle on the base of that bullet as possible. There are exceptions of course, but my rifle experience supports this.

[felix]

The crown of the barrel is most critical, or said another way, the boolit fit at the crown. Lower the pressure at that junction, the better the chance the boolit will fly for a longer distance. This is the reason the old theory about accuracy depended upon barrel length. Actually, the shorter, fatter barrels are the most accurate for BR work because less can go wrong in manufacturing the barrel. However, these short, fat barrels don't have enough practical inertia during recoil to ride the bags the same way twice. ... felix

[Buckshot]

...............1" @ 50 = 2" @ 100? Nope, not always. A good friend had a Sako in 375 H&H Ackley improved. At 50 yards it would stack 5 rounds of cast boolits right in on top of each other, and at a goodly clip too. Going out to 100 yards and sometimes not even all five would hit the target backer board.

He did everything he could think of, but I think it was the 12" twist myself.

...............Buckshot

[1Shirt]

Yep, like some others have said, maybe. Possibly true in a vacuum, but who is going to shoot in same. Many variables, including twist, wind, sunlight/glare, lubes, blt. hardness, and of course the human element and the nut behind the trigger.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[montana_charlie]

canuck4570,
Mathematically, you are correct. A rifle that shoots in one inch at a hundred should group in half of that at fifty.

But, your username leads me to believe you might be shooting bullets that need to 'go to sleep' before their true performance can be evaluated. That usually doesn't occur at ranges as short as fifty yards.
CM

[cbrick]

Half inch at 50 and and 2 inches at 200? Maybe. I think felix and Bass Ackward nailed it with twist, crown and powder. I almost always use the slowest powder that I can get enough of it in the case to acheive the velocity I'm looking for. Twist rate, bullet length (weight) and meplat, velocity all come into play. I have read where 22 rimfire shooters run into trouble with bullets faster than sound ruining groups when the bullet drops below the speed of sound. When working up groups for 200 meter silhouette I group at 150 meters just because its easier at our range. When I find what I'm looking for I always double check at 200 meters. Every now and then there's a load that groups well at 150 and looks like a shotgun patern 200. That's not a bad thing though, its the perfect excuse to cast more and spend more time at the range.

Rick

[mooman76]

I have heard of rounds doing 1/2 at 50 and the same at 100. While I think this is not imposible I think mostly it is the shooter. I had an .06 that would do 2'' at 100 and the same at 200.
Aim small, mis small!

[David R]

With lead,

My 222 shoots 1.5" at 50 and 8" at 100. what went wrong?

Barrel is pitted and wavy rifling, Chamber is wrong size, Boolit is only 45 grains.

I guess it doesn't work every time.

308 shoots 1" at 100, but 8" X 5" at 300.

22-250 shoots Just over 1" at 100, but 5" at 300.

These are my guns and my exp. YMMV

David

[waksupi]

Dave, I hate to ask, but are you sure your bench technique is good? If not, you can't keep them together. Bench shooting, done properly, is a tough task. Just ask Felix.

[JohnH]

Yeah, maybe. The one problem not yet discussed is sights. I can shoot 1 1/2" groups at 50 yards with irons, if the light is right, I can't even see a target over irons at 100, my eyes just won't give me enough definition to do better than 5". What of a scope sight you say? What kind of reticle are we talking about. Common thick wire hunting oriented reticles will cover 3" at 200 yards. I can cheat the system, place a square in a corner of the recticle, but repeatably enough at 200 to say that my rifle will shoot to the math???? Then again, I've shot loads that were great at 50 and lousy at 100, as well as loads that shot to the math. Let the rifle tell you what it will do, and ignore the theoretical wisdom.

Edit::: As an afterthought, take a look at a 50 yard big bore target, the X ring is only about 1/4" diameter. That speaks a few volumns by itself.

[Lloyd Smale]

dont know about rifles but in handguns the theroy doesnt fly. To many variables in bullet designs and bullet stability due to rate of twist and initial velocity.

[Trigger44]

I am shooting with cast bullets a .22 Hornet 1:12 twist and a .22 BR Rem same twist. The hornet loves medium weight 54-55gr bullets with something like H322. Light bullets will put them in the same hole a 25yds and some times 1.5" at 50. Finally ended up making several scope changes, eventually to target scopes from 14 to 20 power. That made a big difference. My groups at 50 yds are now down in the .25 to .75" range. With the .22 BR, it like the bullets long and heavy even though the twist is the same as the Hornet. The NEI #5 (about 62-64 gr) with
3031 or Benchmark will do .25 to .5" all day. I do not even shoot any fast powder
any more in these rifles except for one subsonic squirrel load.
I find three things are important. First to see the target as well as possible.
Find the bullet length/weight thats right for that gun. Finally shoot the slowest powders suitable for the cartridge your using.

[felix]

Probably not long and heavy per se, but more bearing surface. Reason? You have shot that BR case with hotter loads, more powder and the rifling is not as sharp at the beginning of the lands. Checking both guns out with a bore scope will prove or disprove this difference. ... felix

[9.3X62AL]

......"going to sleep".......my old Ruger 77V in 308 that the Department issued to me showed this phenomenon markedly. We shot at 50/100/200 yards with some frequency, and the Federal loads using the Sierra 168 Matchking bullet would go into 3/4"-7/8" at 50 yards (5 shots), and NO BETTER--EVER. At 100 yards, the rifle was a reliable 1"-1.125" performer, and at 200 yards would normally run about 1/8" either side of 1.75". From this example, I learned that bullets "going to sleep"--even in this rather short range space--is a real thing.

I also believe in trans-sonic flight disturbance--that is, the possibility of a missile being buffetted around as it slows to 1119 FPS and disturbing downrange radial dispersion. Think "Chuck Yaeger" and his sound barrier experience. There are likely boolit/bullet/aircraft shapes and profiles that resist this reaction better than others, and with the projectiles we also have the twist imparted by rifling that potentially can work to counter-act the dispersion expansion.

Lacking formulae or shape factor knowledge to figure this out, I'm left with shooting the rifles and handguns to test the downrange results. Just awful, ain't it? :-) Where possible, I strive to keep the boolit going super-sonic through its intended flight path, or start the boolit out sub-sonic in the first place to eliminate the variable altogether. This rationale was used with the 10mm and the 200 grain RCBS boolit, which I run to 1100 FPS, same story with the 44-40 in the '73 Winchester and its 200 grain SAECO.

In situations where you significantly lose a caliber's potential by down-loading its velocity, you can regain striking energy by raising boolit weight. One of these "tip-over calibers" is the 45-70 in the Marlin or Ruger rifles, where its factory load-level performance of 405 grain @ 1320 FPS will likely "hit the trans-sonic wall" during its 150-200 yard hunting ranges. Accuracy tests at all intended ranges need to be done to confirm consistent dispersion charcteristics. In the rifles mentioned, you also have the option of raising velocity past that "hit the wall" point, but such moves exact a recoil penalty that might be counter-productive. I'm more inclined to raise boolit weight and keep velocities at 1100 FPS, myself.

[Trigger44]

That subsonic load I mentioned was used in my Encore .22 Hornet 1:12" twist.
It was 1.5 grains of Accurate #2, small pistol primers and the Lyman 225438 44 grain bullet sized to .225. Also seated to cover the grease groove not into the lands. Velocity is 1085 fps. A gas check was used also. This load shoots cluster
groups at 25yds and usually 0.5" at 50. Next load up the scale and the most accurate of all is 4.2 grains of HS-6 behind the Lyman 225414 54 grain GC. Sized to .225. Shoots .25-.375" groups at 50 yds. Velocity runs 1575 fps. Next up in power is 12.0 grains of H322 and the 225415 bullet 2175 fps and 0.5-0.6" groups
at 50 yds. Strange the same load using the RCBS 55 grain 1.0 - 1.5" groups 50yds.

In the 22 BR (11 pounds with a Zeiss Conquest 6.5-20x50, Douglas barrel and
Remingtion 700 action + Timney trigger) the RCBS 55gr, the Saeco 60 grain and the NEI #5 bullet (66 gr w/GC) all shoot real well. The Lyman 225415 shoots well
enough to hit one gallon paint pails most of the time at 50 yds. Lighter weight
bullets such a NEI #2 45gr or the 44 gr Lyman 225438 do not shoot well at all,
sometimes groups as big as 4 - 5". I will begin shooting the 22 BR soon at 100 yds
as the second phase in this load development. Some of these 22 BR loads are up
in the area of 2600 fps. All the above bullets were hardened wheel weight alloy with about 2% tin. I haven't done much with this new gun with jacketed bullets but at 50 yds 50 grain Speer spitzers cut nice little clusters. The 22 Br has a no neck ream chamber with minimum freebore. Cast bullets are simply more fun.

The Hornet loads took four months of shooting every week here in Florida to develop.
I have been reloading cast bullets since 1959.

[montana_charlie]

I have re-read this thread three times, and I'm still confused.

My post stated that a rifle which will group in an inch at 100 should group in half of that at fifty.

That is undeniable theory...and undeniable math...as long as the issue is not complicated by a big bullet needing to 'go to sleep' before it flies true,

The comments which came after mine leave so many factors undefined it's hard to make heads or tails what points are being made.

First, it isn't always clear if the poster is talking about a rifle or handgun.
Anyone who can fire a half-inch group at fifty yards has my admiration. If he can shoot within eight inches at a hundred, he is a damn good pistolero.
But he is not maintaining 1 MOA accuracy through both ranges...even though the gun is probably capable of it.

Second, not one person said that he had a weapon capable of that 100 yard 1-inch group...which he then tried at fifty.

They always started at the short range group and went on to say how much spread they experienced at longer ranges. (In one case, the poster even admitted that he can't see the target at 100.)
That 5 or 8-inch spread at 100 (that almost everybody described) just shows an inability to shoot with equal accuracy at longer range.

There was the Remington 700 in 6.5 mm that, with the Lyman 225415, can hit one-gallon paint pails most of the time - at fifty yards - but other bullets don't shoot well.

I'm sorry, friend, I can't call that 'shooting well'. IMO, any rifle that won't hit the 'D' in Dutch Boy - every time at fifty yards - isn't worth shooting.

Except for my Sharps, which is a whole new ball game to me, every rifle I have ever owned will shoot in less than 1.5 inches at 100. And, every one of them prints in half of that at fifty. It's simple physics.
CM

[45 2.1]

There was the Remington 700 in 6.5 mm that, with the Lyman 225415, ?????????? How? can hit one-gallon paint pails most of the time - at fifty yards - but other bullets don't shoot well.

Except for my Sharps, which is a whole new ball game to me, every rifle I have ever owned will shoot in less than 1.5 inches at 100. They will too, but you might have to give up the BP and shoot that other powder.

[cbrick]

every rifle I have ever owned will shoot in less than 1.5 inches at 100. They will too, but you might have to give up the BP and shoot that other powder.

HeHe, yep, that clean stuff :-D.

[montana_charlie]

I've had one 1-inch hundred yard group with the Sharps. That shows what it's capable of, no argument there. But I haven't (yet) found the consistency that will do it every time. Still searching...
CM

[cbrick]

I'm not to sure that its the ammo that won't do it but rather the shooter. I know I have days when I couldn't hit a barn if I was standing in it. Other days things seem to go well and I can do my part. When I do groups usually repeat.

[45 2.1]

CM-
What caliber? Wandering group size is usually due to boolit size and fit along with a couple of other things. If you want to discuss those, PM me.

[44man]

45 2.1, I have another cherry made and hope this one works for the boolit you designed for me. I have to harden it and maybe try it on some scrap first. Then I will be able to post on results from the proper fit. I agree that it is more important then boolit shape because I have shot the revolver WLNGC and WFN boolits to 500 meters with tremendous accuracy but keep reading here about them losing accuracy at long range, NOT SO! The only thing they have is more drop.
Shooting a rifle at 50 yd's will not show much (Kind of like shooting magnum revolvers at 25 yd's and less.) but I do start there with revolvers, then 100 and 200 yd's and when I get to the club, clear to 500 meters. I have had better accuracy with the revolvers then with my BPCR and hope the new boolit corrects it.
Reminds me of the 220 Swift I had that would never shoot under an inch at 100 yd's and really disgusted me until I put 5 in .250" at 350 yd's and was head shooting chucks to almost 600 yd's. The old Winchester had the perfect twist for the 60 gr bullet. The bullet would not go to sleep at close range. Then other rifles would shoot one hole groups at 100 yd's and go to pot at longer ranges. Fit, length and twist count more then shape. Talking about length to twist, the 30-30 Contender I had would shoot the RCBS 308-165-SIL boolit into a nickel at 100 yd's. Then I ran out of gas checks and every boolit would keyhole at 50 yd's from loss of length. It NEEDS the gas check to match the twist in the Contender.
So I will say that 50 yd's is best for fun shooting.
And Montana Charlie, my BPCR has shot more 1" to 1-1/2" groups at 200 yd's then you would believe but because of bad fit with every single boolit I have tried, hitting the berm at 400 and 500 is nothing but luck while the rams and turkeys laugh at me. Even from the bench with a scope it is a guess and you can watch the boolits go nuts in a spotting scope. You can see them go smooth, straight and even until just past 200, then they start to wobble and veer off course. Bottom line is that shooting close range with a long range rifle is a waste of time.