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Blackhawk45hunter
01-16-2011, 09:48 PM
I'm working on a load for my ruger with the 255 lee plain base mold.
I want to use h110 but can't find load data for this boolit weight with cast.

Hodgedon's site has 21 grains starting load under a 325 grain boolit.

It also has a starting load of 23.5 grains under a 260 grain jacketed bullet.

Should I use the load for the jacketed bullet to start with?

btroj
01-16-2011, 09:53 PM
I have used 23.5 with a 265 bullet in my Ruger . It was a real wrist snapper of a load too. I far prefer my 44 mag SRH to the 4.625 inch black hawk in 45 colt for heavy loads. I got good accuracy, once I worked up to the recoil, but have since decided I don't need the velocity gains in that gun. I just use a 290 at 900 fps now, easier on my wrists and much less blast.
Not sure that is the best bullet for heavy loads of H110 but it doesn't hurt to try it. Just be sure your throats are big enough. Mine were .449 and it leaded horribly. Opened up to .452 and no more leading. Seems Ruger likes the small throats in this caliber.

RobS
01-16-2011, 09:59 PM
Don't load down for sure as you'll end up with hang fires and have to drive the boolit out with a brass rod or wooden dowel or worse yet fire another down the tube and have a KABOOM. Jacketed bullets are harder than cast so there is less pressures associated with a cast boolit. I would work in the middle of 260 grain jacketed info and work up or better yet work in the lower end of 250 grain jacketed info, probably around 25 grains of H110. I'm assuming you are using a Ruger firearm???

RobS
01-16-2011, 10:02 PM
Seems Ruger likes the small throats in this caliber.

They sure did screw the pooch on many 45 colts thats for sure.

Blackhawk45hunter
01-16-2011, 10:11 PM
Yeah it's a ruger blackhawk 45 convertible.
I was thinking about starting with 23 grains and working up in .2 grain increments for accuracy.

RobS
01-16-2011, 10:31 PM
I would start at least the min load of a 260 grain J and take a wooden dowel or brass rod with you to shoot. If for any reason you think a round is funny stop and check things out. I really feel that 23 grains is a bit light.

I reload for the casull and ball powders have always been an all out or no go for me. Even after changing my brass over to large pistol primer pockets it still is on the upper ends of load data or I will often times end up with hang fires or squibs.

Hopefully others will chime in here for you in regards to your paticular boolit/load.

zxcvbob
01-16-2011, 10:37 PM
I've loaded 255 grain commercial SWC's with 25.0 grains of 296 and a Federal "benchrest" LPM primer. Shot good, but I just didn't like burning that much powder in one shot, and I haven't gotten back around to it yet.

I wouldn't start below 24 if I were you. Make sure your neck tension and crimp are *really* tight, especially with the lighter loads.

(16.5 grains of Blue Dot is also a good one)

x101airborne
01-16-2011, 10:41 PM
I tried to load H-110 in 45 colt many years ago in a ruger BH. That powder never did develope enough pressure to burn correctly. I would recommend (and it is just a recomendation) to stay away from H-110 in the 45 colt. Try any of the load data for Blue Dot. I dont remember my load, but a 260 gr cast HP over the Blue Dot is AWESOME!! Both in perfomance and in killin power. Not as sensitive about pressure either.

leftiye
01-17-2011, 04:55 AM
Plus 1 on the Blue Dot - 16.0 grs with a 250 grain Lee SWC 1250 fps. Will split some cases if your chambers are too large (standard -.486" is too large).

btroj
01-17-2011, 08:31 AM
Plus 1 on the Blue Dot - 16.0 grs with a 250 grain Lee SWC 1250 fps. Will split some cases if your chambers are too large (standard -.486" is too large).

It is a Ruger, what do you mean IF? My Ruger has chambers the size of Texas. Sadly, my Marlin 1894 is no better. When I get a split, I get a split. Like down the length of the case. Good news is, I seem to get 15 or so loads on Starline brass before this happens. Been using the same 500 cases for better than 10 years and have not really lost that many, maybe 20 to 40.

x101airborne
01-17-2011, 10:28 AM
It is a Ruger, what do you mean IF? My Ruger has chambers the size of Texas. Sadly, my Marlin 1894 is no better. When I get a split, I get a split. Like down the length of the case. Good news is, I seem to get 15 or so loads on Starline brass before this happens. Been using the same 500 cases for better than 10 years and have not really lost that many, maybe 20 to 40.

BooBoo, iffn you gettin splits, even ONE, H-110 is a recipie for disaster. No doubt about it. H-110 ONLY operates at maximums. I know you are using fireformed cases, but even so, they are probably stretched already. If you are set on using H-110, maybe trade for about 20 or so 454 casull cases. Trim them and this solves several problems..... 1) They are MADE for magnum pressures. 2) They are marked differently so it is easy to keep em seperate from regular 45 Colt loads. What you are wanting is possible, but I recommend the different cases. Just a little extra safety there.

Willbird
01-17-2011, 10:35 AM
http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm

Linebaugh goes up to 27.0 grains with a 260 lead

That load is really a handful.

Do the 454 cases have a different internal capacity than 45 colt cases ?

white eagle
01-17-2011, 10:39 AM
I have had hangfires and pops along with stuck boolits with a
250 gr'r so beware
the charge was 26 gr of h110 and a cci cap
just had to pound out a boolit yesterday that got stuck

felix
01-17-2011, 10:48 AM
I've used the 454 cases from Hornady, and have found stretch marks at the base. The unfired brass is smaller in diameter as well as harder than the normal Colt cases making these features worse for our lousy Colt chambers. The industry spec for the 454 chamber is three thousands SMALLER than for the Colt chamber. Heavy loads for the Colt chamber should only be used when required without regard for the brass on hand. ... felix

zxcvbob
01-17-2011, 11:48 AM
What difference does a split case make in a revolver?

I do wonder about splits in a '94 lever action though; where does the escaping hot gas go in that one? In my face, or down the barrel? I'm trying to visualize the action and I can't think of anyplace else for it to go, the ejection port is closed and the loading gate is closed.

Willbird
01-17-2011, 12:14 PM
I'm not sure any gas really leaks, I have never fired a pistol, or revolver and noticed anything that would warn me I split a case (bad or worn out brass). It might be that the case still mostly seals ?

Bill

white eagle
01-17-2011, 12:46 PM
the only split cases I have encountered have been new Starline
brass in 44 mag other than that age probably wears em out

waksupi
01-17-2011, 01:08 PM
You can possibly get gas cutting of the firearm, and accuracy will be poor.

Willbird
01-17-2011, 06:04 PM
I have seen cases split in 44 magnum, 357, 45 acp, and even 357 maximum.

Bill

btroj
01-17-2011, 07:37 PM
They split after many, many , loads in Ruger and Marlin way oversize chambers. It is not pressure, it is work hardened brass. I have never measured them but I would not be surprised to find that my cases get sized down by 25 thou or more each loading, then expanded that much again on firing.
I have done what Felix said, reserve heavy loads for when they are warranted. I have gone to more moderate loads for both guns, they work for about any need. I no longer see a need for max velocities in my 45 colts, I have other guns for those needs.
Will bird is right, I have gotten splits in 38 special even, and I don't even use +p loads. Just my fat Ruger chambers at work.

dagger dog
01-17-2011, 08:13 PM
Linebaughs .45 Colt P+ loadings of H110 did not mention the use of Large Pistol Magnum primers.

I found out that the MAGNUM PRIMERS ARE A MUST WITH H 110 AND ITS WINCHESTER CLONE ALONG WITH A HEAVY CRIMP,
don't drop the hammer on another round if you get a strange sound, or no recoil.

Even WLP weren't enough to light up 23-25grs of H110 and a 270 gr cast, had to prove it to my self even after posting questions on another board, and receiving answers to YES USE MAGNUM PRIMERS !

Just glad I didn't get a bad case of HAMMER ELBOW only loaded 24 rnds had to pull 20.

Shulse
01-17-2011, 11:38 PM
I agree with staying away from H-110 with 45 LC. I use H-110 for 454 and 240 gr XTP's. It works great. For 45 LC and 255 gr cast SWC I use Unique. It pushes the 255 1150fps easily and is a sweetheart to shoot. No need for magnum primers and uses very little powder. Why ask for more? It's never even crossed my mind to dump H-110 in it. I just don't see the need. I let friends shoot the 454's so I can watch other shooters at the range cringe and grimmis. 454 aint that much fun to shoot in my opinion.
Steve

Frank
01-18-2011, 02:09 AM
H110 works fine in the Ruger 45 Colt. But the 1/16 twist desires a heavier boolit. Shoot boolits in the 300-350 grain range.

geargnasher
01-18-2011, 02:14 AM
What's wrong with a stiff charge of 2400?

Gear

btroj
01-18-2011, 09:23 AM
What's wrong with a stiff charge of 2400?

Gear

Ummmmmm, nothing?

I have actually gone to 10 gr AA5 under a 290 plain base cast . Shoots well and I would have no problem at all taking a deer with it. Penetration would be great.

white eagle
01-18-2011, 10:42 AM
nothing wrong with h110 in a colt
burned up 16#of it in the last year
just need to watch what you are doing

geargnasher
01-18-2011, 05:06 PM
Folks, the OP was wanting advice on data using H110 and 255 grain PB boolits. Before this turns into a Ford vs. Chevy debate about whether or not H110 is a suitable .45 Colt +P propellant (which it is), reconsider the application. 255 grain plain based boolits are a little light for the caliber with H110, or at the least on the ragged edge of suitable IMO.

I mentioned 2400 because it's a lot easier and safer to ignite with lighter boolits in larger calibers than H110/296. The plain-based boolit might appreciate it more, too. 2400 will get almost the same velocity, maybe even more depending on the gun, because it will get a cleaner burn at lower initial ignition pressures. Now if you go to 300+ grainers, the H110 would probably be a better choice.

Gear

USSR
01-18-2011, 06:57 PM
I have actually gone to 10 gr AA5 under a 290 plain base cast . Shoots well and I would have no problem at all taking a deer with it. Penetration would be great.

Any idea as to the pressure/velocity of that load?

Don

leftiye
01-18-2011, 10:29 PM
It is also the RATE at which the stretching comes about. It is about the higher pressure and the quickness of the stretching that occurs. Lighter loads result in just as much stretching/bulging - as measured (until the chambers start flexing that is, then the cases stick too).

Blackhawk45hunter
01-18-2011, 11:34 PM
Well I loaded and shot a dozen or so with 23.6 grains and I have to say, these rounds will wake you up in a hurry.
The recoil was pretty stout, but so far no squib loads.
I haven't had time to try them off a bench for accuracy tests yet. So far I know they're at least moderately consistent and there's no leading that I can tell.

btroj
01-19-2011, 12:30 AM
Any idea as to the pressure/velocity of that load?

Don

Pressure, no. I would imagine a bit over the limit for a SAA but no problem for a Ruger.
Velocity from my 4.625 inch Blackhawk is right at 900if I recall. It goes around 1250 to 1300 from my Marlin 1894 cowboy with 24 inch barrel.
This load shoots well enough that it is aout all I load for my 45 Colts.

btroj
01-19-2011, 12:32 AM
Folks, the OP was wanting advice on data using H110 and 255 grain PB boolits. Before this turns into a Ford vs. Chevy debate about whether or not H110 is a suitable .45 Colt +P propellant (which it is), reconsider the application. 255 grain plain based boolits are a little light for the caliber with H110, or at the least on the ragged edge of suitable IMO.

I mentioned 2400 because it's a lot easier and safer to ignite with lighter boolits in larger calibers than H110/296. The plain-based boolit might appreciate it more, too. 2400 will get almost the same velocity, maybe even more depending on the gun, because it will get a cleaner burn at lower initial ignition pressures. Now if you go to 300+ grainers, the H110 would probably be a better choice.

Gear

I agree entirely. H110 has a place, but it is a limited application powder. 2400 works over a much broader range of bullet/powder charge combination.

Trey45
01-19-2011, 11:12 AM
I use H110 in 45 Colt, but not with boolits as light as 255gr. Anything under 265gr is a Blue Dot load if I'm going to push it hard. My normal load for 255gr boolits is 9gr Unique. Not a barn burner by any means. Surprisingly, a 8.5gr unique load with the same boolit was accurate, bumped up to 9gr unique and everything just came together better. Better accuracy, better burn, just a beter load all around.

There's nothing wrong with using H110 in 45 Colt, as long as your boolit weight is heavy enough to give you a proper burn. 255gr in 45 Colt isn't heavy enough for this. Switch powders, give Blue Dot a try, 2400 works, Unique is good for everything, I have yet to find a handgun cartridge that unique can't be used for, even some rifle cartridges like unique for down loading.

missionary5155
01-19-2011, 11:30 AM
Greetings
Split cases is one good reason I neck size all my brass. Yes it must be segregated to a particular revolver but I do not mind. If it can be reinserted into the chambers after firing why squish it down to a smaller diameter ?
I keep it in zip locks cleary marked with black marker which revolver or rifle it belongs to.

leftiye
01-19-2011, 09:39 PM
Might be a great place to use Lil Gun??? Ignites much easier than H110/296, and therefore runs well at lower (starting pressures for H110) pressures.

RobS
01-19-2011, 10:21 PM
Lil Gun has been known to be very hard on forcing cones. A quick google search will give you some good info. I had issues with my 454 casull and won't go back.

geargnasher
01-19-2011, 10:46 PM
I bought a pound of Lil'Gun over a year ago since it looked to be the berries for +P 45 Colt, but shied away from trying it since I heard the same things about forcing cones. Blasted internet rumours! Is there any real truth to this?

Gear

454PB
01-19-2011, 10:57 PM
I use Lil'Gun in my 454's with no problems. Some say it burns "hot" and makes the barrel too hot to touch. Yes, it does heat up my guns on a warm day when shooting long strings relatively fast.....but so does every other powder that produces the same velocities.

Every one of my magnums (.357, .44, and 454's) has some flame cutting of the top strap directly above the barrel/cylinder gap.......it's simply the result of that hot, high pressure gas escaping. I've never seen a revolver in those calibers with more than a thousand rounds through it that DIDN'T have it.

RobS
01-19-2011, 11:25 PM
Curious 454PB, what weight of boolit are you using with this powder? I was using 300 grainers and seen forcing cone damage on the Casull in only 25 rounds.

454PB
01-20-2011, 12:12 AM
Mostly the Lee 320 gr. and Lyman 452651 330 gr.

In my .44 magnums, 250 to 260 gr. of various designs, and the Lee 310 gr.

I don't shoot many "light" boolits in anything I own.

leftiye
01-20-2011, 11:18 PM
[QUOTE]Lil Gun has been known to be very hard on forcing cones. A quick google search will give you some good info. I had issues with my 454 casull and won't go back. RobS[QUOTE]

Even if it were so, would that occur at reduced pressures as would be the case in a .45 Colt? I doubt that even the hottest .45 Colt loads are actually in the 40,000 psi range as is the case in many magnum pistol loads ( not to mention pistols that run in the 50 to 60 thousand psi range).

RobS
01-21-2011, 12:08 AM
I was running the bottom end loads for 325 gr PB and with 23.2 grains this load is to be at 33,200 CUP. My loads should have been a bit less since I was using 300g PB boolits. I don't know what it is or how some say it ruined their revolvers and others not, but it sure did give me problems where as H110 and 4227 never yielded this issue.

pistolman44
01-21-2011, 12:53 AM
I shoot a Lee 255 RF PB in my black 45LC 7 1/2"brl. using WC820 14gr. I tried 15gr with the same powder but it was bulging the bottom of the case. This is around 1200 fps. Very accurate load.

x101airborne
01-21-2011, 09:24 AM
Dont tell me lil gun does that... I just got in 8 pounds.

RobS
01-21-2011, 01:29 PM
And some pics from 25 rounds of Lil Gun:

Top of forcing cone

http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt206/RobS01/IMG_4117.jpg

another angle

http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt206/RobS01/IMG_4118.jpg

Had the same thing (but at a much less degree) with my other 454 and only shot two cylinders before I noticed the other revolver lying on the bench looking funny at me. I have since recut the cone on the SRH and may recut the Taurus you see above but it doesn't see anything but popcorn loads as it is a dedicated plinker my wife enjoys shooting. I will note that I only loaded from one container of Lil Gun and it could have been a bad lot, but this turned me off very quickly.

tonyjones
01-21-2011, 01:31 PM
Trey,
Use it in your .410.
Tony

454PB
01-21-2011, 01:53 PM
OK, I see what you are worried about.

My .44 magnums and 454's had that same minor flame/pressure erosion LONG before I started using Lil'Gun. I don't think it's possible to avoid if you use any recipe that meets or approaches the guns capability.

My old Ruger Redhawk must have 10K rounds through it, and the forcing cone has been "scuffed" like that for the last 20 years. I quite worrying about it and accept it as wear.

Is that a Taurus RB?

RobS
01-21-2011, 01:57 PM
Didn't have any of it before I stated with those 25 rounds and I shot a good 1K of H110/4227 out of that gun prior to. I'll post up some pics of my SRH's recut 11 degree cone after a good 2K or so loads of H110/#9/4227/2400 loads along with countless Alliant herco and steel loadsl it shows zip zero no forcing cone erosion.

RobS
01-21-2011, 02:06 PM
OK, pic of the Ruger FC:

http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt206/RobS01/IMG_4119.jpg

RobS
01-21-2011, 02:29 PM
Is that a Taurus RB?

Yep, it is. Like I said I don't know what it is with this powder, but the experience I drew from it was not in my liking and where as I've read that Hodgdon has reformulated it etc. I'm not sure, but I was burnt once and it was enough for me. I will choose H110/4227 for the upper loads with 340 grain heavy boolits. H110/#9 I reserve for upper loads with 300 grainers and stay with 2400 for the mid/upper mid loads with this boolit. Herco, Steel (although can be a pain to meter) and blue dot I work for mid and down.

454PB
01-21-2011, 02:50 PM
I wish you the best of luck.

The erosion on mine (Taurus RB, Freedom Arms 83, Ruger SRH .454 Casulls, and Ruger RH .44 magnum) was all done using mostly H-110/WW296, some WC 820/AA#9, and Bluedot......and all long before I started using Lil'Gun. It also affects my .357 magnums, though not as much, because I shoot them less now.

My first .357 magnum was a S&W model 28, and it had somewhere around 25K rounds through it when I traded it off for a GP-100. At the time it left me, the topstrap was cut probably .025" deep from erosion, and the forcing cone looked like it had been sandblasted with gravel. It still shot fine, but it would occasionally pepper my face with what I assume was lead shards. Most all shooting had been done with H-110, HS-6, and Unique, and 95% was cast boolits.

Again, there is a price to be paid for using high pressure loads.....and guns do wear out.

454PB
01-21-2011, 04:39 PM
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a1df00b3127ccefc7f43842d0200000030O02EZOGjFu3ZA9 vPho/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Here's the forcing cone on my F.A. 83. Notice the striations on the top.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a1df00b3127ccefc7f45e2ac5700000030O02EZOGjFu3ZA9 vPho/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

My Ruger SRH...striations all the way around, worse at the top.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a1df00b3127ccefc7fa0a0ecff00000030O02EZOGjFu3ZA9 vPho/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

My Taurus RB. The striations don't show well in this picture, but the cutting of the topstrap does.

RobS
01-21-2011, 05:43 PM
My thoughts on forcing cones and in regards to their diameter at the mouth: It is recommended for best accuracy they are .020 over bullet diameter i.e. a .452 bullet then would be best served with a .472 forcing cone mouth diameter. This is written in the 11 degree forcing cone chamfer tool kit received from Brownells and I've read this before somewhere else, possibly the Ruger forum.

I can see if the forcing cones were cut for accuracy of a jacketed bullet then those shooting cast will fill the forcing cone more. This problem I can see being compounded yet further when a revolver has larger cylinder throats and a person sizes their boolits to fit. Take this another step with those who use a softer boolit and obturation of the base as it leaves the cylinder throats creating more of an effect. Also if one firearm company cuts the cones smaller in diameter vs another it could be a factor in the amount of FC erosion as in seen by 454PB’s photo’s. This is not to start a debate on BHN and obturation however 44 man we all know uses hard boolits and his forcing cones look pretty darn good after the countless burners with H110/296 he shoots, maybe something there as his boolits do not obuturate or obturate very little.

Another point, I recut my Ruger 454 SRH’s forcing cone and it had to be cut a bit deeper than suggested for the 11 degree FC which opened it up at mouth more then .020 which may be the reason why I'm not seeing any forcing cone erosion with the slow burners; this revolver has not once spit lead back at me since the rebirth of the new FC. The cylinder throats are large on this particular revolver .455 and is what I size my boolits to. I don't believe Ruger ever intended to see .455 diameters running into the forcing cone/barrel.

This thread and what I've posted here somewhat ties into another thread currently going on as it pertains to Powders, Boolit weight, Forcing cones etc:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=103947

fredj338
01-21-2011, 07:33 PM
What's wrong with a stiff charge of 2400?

Gear

Nothing wrong w/ 2400, I prefer it in heavy 4colt loads, but H110/W296 works, you just need to run it up there & heavier bullets work better. Yes, I use mag primers w/ H110/W296. I have proven to myself many times it is needed for best ignition. Hang fires are not fun.

454PB
01-24-2011, 02:30 PM
The reason I jumped into this thread was to defend Lil'Gun. I've read so many dire warnings about using it, and haven't seen that it's any worse than any other powders of similar burn rate. for me, it has produced better performance than H-110/WW296, and doesn't seem to have the temperamental load density problems that can cause misfires and hangfires I've seen in H-110, WC820, and AA#9.

This thread started with discussion of H-110, then was linked to another thread to forcing cone cracking that happened while using 2400.

Some 38 years ago when I first started handloading for .44 and .357 magnums, the most popular powders were probably Hercules 2400 and IMR 4227. I used them both a lot, but found both did not burn completely, or were "dirty". At that time H-110 was a relatively new comer (as is Lil'Gun now), and I began using it exclusively for my maximum effort loads. I'm still learning......I try to keep an open mind.....but I have not yet seen a downside to the use of Lil'Gun.

And if anyone has a .357, .44, or 454 Casull with over 5000 rounds fired and NO scuffing/erosion of the forcing cone, I want to see pictures.