My homemade black powder

[atom73]

Used my homemade black powder in my TC black diamond express today with some boolits sent to me by someone on the site. The powder performed really well with both 450gr .505 and .245gr power belts. The recoil was a little lighter than commercial powder but it had a nice crack to it. Much less smoke than other powers that I have used with still a very satisfiying smell.
Mike

[fatboy]

Thats great! would you give out your recipie and process? I am interested in also making Black Powder.

[Matt3357]

Very nice, always like to hear people doing stuff that is not usually considered the norm. Any info on your BP would be great.

Matt

[mooman76]

There are some posting on Youtube that show how to make BP.

[atom73]

Yeah, there are many recipes for bp out there and I've even seen a few on this site. When I'm back from out of town I will post a write up. It's pretty easy.
Mike

[Matt3357]

Personal experience is everything. I look forward to your writeup.

Matt

[coopieclan]

Yes,
That is really getting cool with the authentic home made BP.
I'll be looking for the post about how you did it.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I am also looking forward to the write up. thanks in advance for sharing the recipie and procedure.

[atom73]

Sorry for the delay guys, gonna be next week before I get to it. I did measure out the amounts and get everything out, just have to have an evening to do it.
Mike

[gnoahhh]

Next thing you know we'll be adding a "missing fingers and eyes" forum to this web site. I will grant you that most of the guys here seem to be pretty responsible folks who experiment with care and caution and who I trust to do it safely, but there are a few I've noticed who seem ready to go off half-cocked and it is those folks I worry about whenever recipes and techniques for doing this turn up.

[Jim]

Weighing the risks against the advantages, I'll just buy what I need.

[cba257]

Thanks for the laugh this morning Gnoahhh!!!! Better than a third cup of coffee.

[woodyubet]

Me too, but I still want to know what you use and how the process works.

[Charlie Sometimes]

Next thing you know we'll be adding a "missing fingers and eyes" forum to this web site. I will grant you that most of the guys here seem to be pretty responsible folks who experiment with care and caution and who I trust to do it safely, but there are a few I've noticed who seem ready to go off half-cocked and it is those folks I worry about whenever recipes and techniques for doing this turn up.

Well, alll you can do is tell them the dangers/emphasize the hazards- then step back. As they say, "I am not my brothers keeper." Everyone has to learn- some take harder lessons than others; to each his own.
We have enough libs out there that haven't heard that phrase apparently, and think in similar ways- "We want to protect you from yourself." :lol:

More people should know how to do it- that might be a saving grace sometime in the near future, you can never tell.
More "powder" to you, atom73! 8-)
Pun intended. :grin:

[Matt3357]

A lot of times just because I am interested in something doesn't mean I am ever going to do it myself. I have asked questions on forums about supposedly "controversial" things and got page after page of people telling me not to do it and how stupid I am etc etc, when in reality all I wanted to do was have a discussion about it and determine if there was a safe way to do it. I am a grown boy, I can determine whether or not something is safe to do and if I am wrong, it was no one's fault but my own for being stupid enough to try it. Besides, it would be a cold day in you know where when I would use homemade powder in a gun that I was holding, (at least for the first shot) ;)

Matt

[cba257]

Could not agree more Matt! After all trial and error is how we got what we got... or don't.

Cody

[Boz330]

As a snotty nosed pre-teen kid I not only made my own BP, but managed to ignite some sewer gas with a home made bomb. It caused some aggravation for my neighborhood and a certain portion of my anatomy when the old man found out. Those damned little birdies again.
Point is that I was making BP when I REALLY didn't have a clue and survived it. With what I already know and some good ideas I think I can make it safely without a surrogate conscience telling me I am dumba$$.
I would like to make some BP, just to see what it would do. Do I want to use it in competition, he!! no, but it would be nice to know if it would put meat on the table in a pinch. It is that genetic thing in me that made me tear all of my toys apart to see how they worked. I do have a PHD from the School of Hard Knocks so I am qualified.:bigsmyl2: Or so the old man told me (God rest his Soul).

Bob

[Jim]

Well, at my age, I can't afford to loose anything. I've lost too much already.
As for being prepared, I've got enough supplies stocked up to outlast me.

[starmac]

I too would like to learn how to make it. The knowledge can't hurt.

Most people on this forum gets satisfaction out of casting and, or reloading.
There are many that gets a lot of satisfaction from harvesting animals from their own product. This could be one more step, the last step yo build your own if it turned out to be consistant enough.

[jmh54738]

Anyone trying to make their own black powder will have a hard time convincing me that they can make a satisfactory product by just mixing the moist ingredients together and granulating by pushing it through a coffee strainer. Real black powder is made by milling the moist ingredients in edge runner incorporating mills. A 50 pound batch is placed in the mill, the two circular runner wheels weigh from 3 to 4 tons each, and are from 4 to 7 feet in diameter. At 8 rpm, it requires 3 1/2 hours of incorporating to produce cannon grade powder. Small arms (dogwood) powder requires 5 1/2 hours of incorporation. The "soft cake" must next be converted to "hard cake" by being pressed between copper plates under hydraulic pressure. Then there is "granulation", "grading", "glazing", and "Drying". In the past many factories blew up, and they still do. John

[Charlie Sometimes]

Anyone trying to make their own black powder will have a hard time convincing me that they can make a satisfactory product by just mixing the moist ingredients together and granulating by pushing it through a coffee strainer. Real black powder is made by milling the moist ingredients in edge runner incorporating mills. A 50 pound batch is placed in the mill, the two circular runner wheels weigh from 3 to 4 tons each, and are from 4 to 7 feet in diameter. At 8 rpm, it requires 3 1/2 hours of incorporating to produce cannon grade powder. Small arms (dogwood) powder requires 5 1/2 hours of incorporation. The "soft cake" must next be converted to "hard cake" by being pressed between copper plates under hydraulic pressure. Then there is "granulation", "grading", "glazing", and "Drying". In the past many factories blew up, and they still do. John

Great abbreviated description of the process. It's no wonder they blow up factories going to all THAT trouble. :lol:
But, they forget to put one thing in that we have more of than they do, and it is reflected above.
That key ingredient is................


(wait for it)............................... :bigsmyl2:


Dumb Luck!!!!!!!!!!!!! :redneck:

I think you can KNOW too much, and cause yourself more grief- just ask the factories that involuntarily expanded operations and relocated to the other side of their property. :shock:

Seems like if you keep it small, you'll probably be less likely to find the "Illudium Q-36 space modultor" formula before finding the mix for good BP. [smilie=p:
I'm going to give it a shot this summer, I hope. [smilie=s:

[Chris Smith]

I read that during the Civil War there were caves around these parts that provided not only a good hiding place but a key ingredient. Bat poop. So if a bunch of half starved rebels did it that way it ought to be taught in school or something. I'd love to know how just to say that I really know how.

[Matt3357]

Definitely not an indoor project, that's for sure.

Matt

[Chris Smith]

I've wanted to try it for quite a while. Just a small amount though. Since we cast our own bullets might as well see about making the powder too. To have a successful hunt with the main components hand made by myself would be quite a fulfilling moment for me.

[wgr]

I read that during the Civil War there were caves around these parts that provided not only a good hiding place but a key ingredient. Bat poop. So if a bunch of half starved rebels did it that way it ought to be taught in school or something. I'd love to know how just to say that I really know how.

people poop too

[jmh54738]

Ignoring the last 800 years of mechanical processing will net you "meal" powder that was made around the year 1200. Bamboo was strong enough to contain the pressures generated. Sure, start with the bat guano, or become a night soil collector, as was done during the revolution, and with a few processes you will have the Potassium Nitrate at little cost. The other ingredents are easy. Enjoy yourself, seeking knowledge and obtaining experience are a worthy goal.
There are old blasters, and there are bold blasters, but there are no old, bold blasters.
John, state licensed blasting technician, retired.

[zxcvbob]

Mike, what kind of charcoal did you use?

I made a couple of half-pound batches of BP 2 years ago. I still have a little of it, but I think it's disintegrated back into dust.

I cooked my own charcoal out of white cedar (couldn't find any willow) and i milled everything dry in a rubber-drummed rock tumbler with a hundred or so .46" hard lead balls. Kneaded in a little rubbing alcohol, and pressed the resulting dough thru a kitchen sieve to granulate it. It was kind of disappointing the first time I tried it (because it was still a little damp) but a month later when it was bone dry it worked great.

[wills]

I read that during the Civil War there were caves around these parts that provided not only a good hiding place but a key ingredient. Bat poop. So if a bunch of half starved rebels did it that way it ought to be taught in school or something. I'd love to know how just to say that I really know how.

http://books.google.com/books?id=oSOmP4a-QB8C&pg=PA9&lpg=PA9&dq=niter+from+barns&source=bl&ots=YsFY92BxMq&sig=mToRnC9yX2RUXBEwPs0wDD-qoq4&hl=en&ei=VQI5TeGCJoG8lQfzmYCyBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=niter%20from%20barns&f=false

[shotman]

not hard to make but Its not as hot as you buy and you cant keep it long . you can get the stuff at drug store but you need a morter/pistel too

[Matt3357]

Why can't you keep it for long?

Matt

[zxcvbob]

Why can't you keep it for long?

Matt

You can if you corn it (press into a cake using a hydraulic press, then crush it.) Or probably if you add a binder to it, like dextrin. The stuff I made still works, it's just dusty. I could dampen it with alcohol and sieve it again and it would be good as new.

[Old Ironsights]

not hard to make but Its not as hot as you buy and you cant keep it long . you can get the stuff at drug store but you need a morter/pistel too

Actually, a Thumber's Tumbler with a lb of .36 or better lead balls works quite well...

You can also use an electric blender & the alcohol slurry method (with a long extension cord).

No mortar & pestle needed.

[nanuk]

there are some very good tutorials and testing on line...

just google home made fireworks...

some of these guys make powder that is more powerful than any commercial available... at least what is available up here.

[nanuk]

Anyone trying to make their own black powder will have a hard time convincing me that they can make a satisfactory product by just mixing the moist ingredients together and granulating by pushing it through a coffee strainer. Real black powder is made by milling the moist ingredients in edge runner incorporating mills. A 50 pound batch is placed in the mill, the two circular runner wheels weigh from 3 to 4 tons each, and are from 4 to 7 feet in diameter. At 8 rpm, it requires 3 1/2 hours of incorporating to produce cannon grade powder. Small arms (dogwood) powder requires 5 1/2 hours of incorporation. The "soft cake" must next be converted to "hard cake" by being pressed between copper plates under hydraulic pressure. Then there is "granulation", "grading", "glazing", and "Drying". In the past many factories blew up, and they still do. John



You simply do NOT need all that equipment

[camerl2009]

anyone wanting to make saltpeter(potassium nitrate) take a look at the improvised munitions handbook thay even have a smokeless powder how to [smilie=w:

now for making it with bat pop or human waste its nasty ive done and im not going down that road any time soon

you need the boil it down i dont recommend it

the bat poop is not what the rebels found it was a natural saltpeter cave all thay had to do was purify it and thay had saltpeter

[woodyubet]

This is a very interesting subject......Thanks for posting it guys.

[mold maker]

Where did those dumb a$$ forefathers of ours get Powder. Wally World hadn't been thought up yet. Some where back then they made their own and fed the family with it.
If it was done then with the primative tools available, surely it can still be done today.
What if, when the gun was invented, there was no gun powder.
Yeah Yeah, I know, the powder came first, but somebody way back then, both invented it, and produced it.
Was everybody back then, that much smarter than we are?????

[camerl2009]

Where did those dumb a$$ forefathers of ours get Powder. Wally World hadn't been thought up yet. Some where back then they made their own and fed the family with it.
If it was done then with the primative tools available, surely it can still be done today.
What if, when the gun was invented, there was no gun powder.
Yeah Yeah, I know, the powder came first, but somebody way back then, both invented it, and produced it.
Was everybody back then, that much smarter than we are?????

people need to think every one is in a flase sense of security when
the stores run out and dont get restocked alot of people will die. no one and do anything for them selfs on a computer all day to have every thing thay need right there some time i wish thay would just get rid of all this **** and go back to the
old days. wow i talk too much

some people ask me why i shoot flintlock well its antique here no madder when it was made no one can take it from me it not registered it dont need to be.

i can keep it working no matter what i can make powder,flints,bullets
its the best thing i can think of for when the SHTF

[shotman]

why you cant keep it ?? make some and try best I can tell you. Experience is best teacher.
as for ball mill the M/P is much cheaper Hell 2 rocks will work for most on here it will save you a buck
from some of the posts I have seen the combine wealth of most on here couldnt be more than $2000

[Old Ironsights]

I just don't like grinding BP by hand. I really hate burned knuckles/eyebrows.

OTOH, used rock tumblers are cheap and they produce a better/more consistent blending... plus you can do about a pound at a time while keeping the blending process away from your face.

[camerl2009]

I just don't like grinding BP by hand. I really hate burned knuckles/eyebrows.

OTOH, used rock tumblers are cheap and they produce a better/more consistent blending... plus you can do about a pound at a time while keeping the blending process away from your face.

you only mix charcoal and sulfer in the ball mill

i do it this way http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkWKffzY0Yk its alot safer
and it keeps in the granulated for a good bit

[atom73]

I made my powder tonight and took pictures along the way. First, let me say that along with other processes discussed on this site, making your own black powder has its own set of risks and hazards all of which should be well understood and mitigated should you decide to do it. Also, make sure that if you decide to do it, you are in compliance with any laws that may apply. Lastly, I have read all the posts on this thread about the dangers of this process and why we shouldnt be doing it, I especially am entertained by those that counsel against it because of how dangerous it is....so is melting lead. If you dont think this should be done then dont do it. I am posting this because I think its neat, it makes me feel a little connection with those that have gone before me and paved the way for our 'hobby' (which was their necessity), and I like to know how things worked. If you are wondering if I am qualified to do this, dont worry about it, I am an adult and can take care of myself. I wont post about how qualified I am.
Last but not least, I have fired this powder in my .50 cal TC black diamond with great results, next year I intend to kill a deer with powder I made and a bullet I cast.

Ingredients:
The ratio is 15:3:2 Of KNO3, Charcoal, and Sulfur respectively. I make batches using (in grams) 150g KNO3, 30g charcoal, and 20g sulfur. You must make your own charcoal out of willow, grass, or another very soft wood or it wont work well. I make my own out of willow, grind the charcoal in a hand crank old fashioned meat grinder, then screen it to sift out the chunks, and use only the fine product for the process. To learn how to make your own charcoal, google it.
You will also need some 90+% isopropyl alcohol, chilled in the freezer (i put it in the night before), 750ml is fine, and I use the whole bottle.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u287/atom73/gunpowder-1.jpg

I buy my other ingredients on line from a pyrotechnic supply co, get the finest grade you can.

Process:
1. Measure your amounts and screen/sift the charcoal and sulfur together to keep it fluffy.
2. Bring about three cups of water to boil on stove, stir in 150g KNO3. Keep stirring and make sure all the KNO3 is dissolved, dont overwater the mix as it will be harder to reprecipitate later. Turn off heat.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u287/atom73/gunpowder-2.jpg

3. Slowly sift in the charcoal and sulfur mix. It will float on top of the water so wisk it in or stir vigorously until you have a grayish sludge.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u287/atom73/gunpowder-5.jpg

4. Once the sludge is fully mixed and wetted, remove it from the stove and pour in the chilled alcohol while stirring.

5. Keep stirring until the sludge is cool. I actually will put the pan in an ice bath to bring the temp down to ice water temp. What this does is causes the KNO3 to precipitate out of solution onto the charcoal and sulfur particles allowing for intimate oxidizer/fuel apposition. You will see the previously watery mix begin to thicken as the precipitation occurs.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u287/atom73/gunpowder-11.jpg

6. Once you are confident all the KNO3 has precipitated out (its been ice cold for about 5-10 min), you can begin to carefully pour it through a coffee filter supprted by a screen strainer.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u287/atom73/gunpowder-13.jpg

7. Let the liquid filter out, it takes a while and I usually have to do two filters worth as they fill up quick. I also scoop and pour into the filter to reduce mess.

8. After most of the liquid exits via gravity, bunch up the filter, wrap another filter around it and begin to slowly squeeze out excess liquid until you have a compacted ball of powder. This you can set on a wad of paper towels until ready for use.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u287/atom73/gunpowder-14.jpg

9. It is necessary to get as much liquid out as you can prior to corning, if excess remains it will mud up when pushed through a mesh and not grain up properly. Once you have a nice ball, grate it through a screen onto a large pan lined with paper for drying. Allow this to dry over night, undisturbed, away from flame, where a kitty cat wont find it!!!!

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u287/atom73/gunpowder-16.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u287/atom73/gunpowder-17.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u287/atom73/gunpowder-19.jpg

Meet your new black powder. I store it in cleaned out tupperware or used powder cans that seal well. I have used some in my .50 cal that was a year old successfully. You can put a packet of rice in to absorb moisture and dont store too much in one container. Test it, play with it, have fun. Remember, you are responsible for your own actions not me (or anyone else for that matter). I post this only in the spirit of sharing something that I made that I found to be quite enjoyable so do your homework and be safe.
Again, for those that have poo poo'd making black powder, dont do it then. BTW, the batch I just made cost me about 50 cents.
Mike:p

[45nut]

Outstanding post!

[Charlie Sometimes]

ALL RIGHT, GREAT JOB! :grin:
Glad someone on CB did it and posted the process here, as proof positive that it is as easy as it sounds, and looks- just takes time to do. The old timers had to find everything and refine the ingredients to make it, which made it much harder to acquire, and more work intensive. Heck, they probably weren't as safety oriented either.
I've watched others on You Tube, etc., and this is just as good as any of those productions I've seen there. Congratulations! :drinks:

[Matt3357]

Awesome tutorial Atom! Can't wait to try it out. What website do you get your ingredients from?

Matt

[atom73]

EBay, scienceforyou.net is where I got mine.

[Charlie Sometimes]

Screen size could allow you to change granulation from 4Fg, to 3Fg and 2Fg.
Would you say your BP is as fine as 4Fg after pushing through your sieve, or is it finer or coarser?

[atom73]

Yes, changing screen size would give you different burn characteristics. I haven't messed with that yet. Mine is about 3F. My grains are more fragile than commercial powder but still functioned well. My buddy is gonna use some in his optima and run his chrono. I would like to know how fast its pushing the sabots I'm shooting.

[docone31]

I think that is fantastic. I am glad I have seen it. It makes sense.
I have no plans to follow through, but to have seen it done is great. That is right up there with watching the stock making machine at the Springfield armory. I am pretty sure I will remember it.
I tried gold processing. I saw it done, and got all fired up. Not as easy as it looks. I tried it though. I spent several hundred dollars, and got less than one hundred. Not as bad as it could have been. I did it though.
Thanks for taking the time, and sharing with us.
I appreciate it.

[Charlie Sometimes]

Yes, changing screen size would give you different burn characteristics. I haven't messed with that yet. Mine is about 3F. My grains are more fragile than commercial powder but still functioned well. My buddy is gonna use some in his optima and run his chrono. I would like to know how fast its pushing the sabots I'm shooting.

Yea, I'd like to know the how well it performs also. Please, post the results whe nyou get that info. :smile:
I think the factory adds more "binder", as someone said above, or maybe a glaze to coat and protect it from absorbing moisture less rapidily, IIRC. I think that is what they do to modern powders to inhibit burn rate and for same protection, IIRC. Graphite coating is added to aid despensing, which may contribute to preventing moisture absorbtion too. Can't remember exactly- been too long since I read about it. :oops:

I've got some new one gallon paint cans that I can use as my retort to make the charcoal- lots of it, as I have lots of black willow! :bigsmyl2:

[atom73]

I have considered adding a dextrose binder but haven't tried it yet. Yes tumbling with graphite inhibits burn and protects the grains. It just worked so darn well when I shot it in my gun I really hate go screwing with it. I'm sure I will tho. I will post chrono info when I get it, might be a while.

[Hellgate]

Aren't you losing some of the KNO3 in the fluid you wring out of the filter? I'd think that would lower the percentage as there has to be some that is still dissolved in the water (not sure how soluble it is in isopropyl). Speaking of rubbing alcohol (isopropyl) the usual 70% is flammable so the 90% stuff is even more so. I have only seen it in 70 & 99% strengths not 90.

[zxcvbob]

KNO3 is not very soluble in cold water. A little bit will be lost, but not much. (NaNO3 is soluble in cold water.)

I still think using a ball-mill is a better process. :)

[Boz330]

It would seem that using the ball mill to combine your charcoal & sulphur might be the way to go for a really well combined mix.
I shoot mostly BPCR and I'd really like to try this for grins and giggles. Thanks.

Bob

[woodyubet]

I can't say that I will try this but I did enjoyseeing and reading about how it is done. I have a deeper knowledge of this hobby and a lot more respect for our fore fathers.

Thanks for posting this Atom..It's a job very well done........woody

[Charlie Sometimes]

Aren't you losing some of the KNO3 in the fluid you wring out of the filter? I'd think that would lower the percentage as there has to be some that is still dissolved in the water (not sure how soluble it is in isopropyl). Speaking of rubbing alcohol (isopropyl) the usual 70% is flammable so the 90% stuff is even more so. I have only seen it in 70 & 99% strengths not 90.

Doesn't matter what % it is, ALL alcohol is flammable- no "more so" about it. The water just thins it a little. When it burns, you can not always see the flame either. THAT would be the real hazard. Good 'shine will burn with a blue flame- and a lot of that is, or can be, 190 proof! That gets hard to see, in more ways than one.:grin:

I noticed in the link that camerl2009 posted, that the guy squeezed off the alcohol and didn't save it (maybe for convenience sake at the time of production). I would think it would be reuseable to a point, and therefore no KNO3 would be lost in any of the process- potentially, by using the same liquid to make other batches. Atom73 sent his down the kitchen sink for the local sewer treatment plant to deal with, too (unless you have a septic tank).

The only way to keep all of the KNO3 in the batch would be to remove all the water, since it is water soluble. Even the finest charcoal get washed out in the filtering process. The filter turns black, and most likely so is the liquid drained off.

Maybe someone with a little chemistry back ground can show us how much water can be "absorbed" or displaced by the alcohol. :?:

[atom73]

I am not overly concerned about loss of KNO3 in the water, yes there is some loss but the powder still works very well. Chilling the mix with ice does help as does using greater conc. of alcohol. I don't have a ball mill and don't plan on getting one. The thing I like about this process is that the oxidizer precipitated onto the fuel for optimal proximity. This does have an effect on burn rate. As for dumping alcohol down the drain, there are no hazardous disposal guidelines on the bottle, I am about as concerned about dumping that down the drain as I am the pan drippings from cooking dinner or ringing shampoo out of hair. It isn't a big deal.

[camerl2009]

KNO3 is not very soluble in cold water. A little bit will be lost, but not much. (NaNO3 is soluble in cold water.)

I still think using a ball-mill is a better process. :)

you cant put all 3 ingrediens in the ball mill thats a pipe bomb waiting to happen
and i think that too much water in the pot there you want to use just enough to
cover the saltpeter. then let it dissolve then add the charcool and sulfur mix
to a paste like clay

[atom73]

I agree, use the very least amount of water possible and heat to dissolve. I am not planning on ball milling (I have read a bunch on it tho) just because this process is so easy, is safer, and produces great results. Plus, ball mills cost money, even to make. I bought the pot I use at goodwill for a buck.

[Charlie Sometimes]

I am not overly concerned about loss of KNO3 in the water, yes there is some loss but the powder still works very well. Chilling the mix with ice does help as does using greater conc. of alcohol. I don't have a ball mill and don't plan on getting one. The thing I like about this process is that the oxidizer precipitated onto the fuel for optimal proximity. This does have an effect on burn rate. As for dumping alcohol down the drain, there are no hazardous disposal guidelines on the bottle, I am about as concerned about dumping that down the drain as I am the pan drippings from cooking dinner or ringing shampoo out of hair. It isn't a big deal.

It's a good, practical process, IMHO. [smilie=w:
As to disposal, I could care less what you do with it. I just refered to the fact that if someone were that concerned, they should capture all the drippings and recycle- that might save some saturated solution, and the alcohol contained in it might still displace additonal water (to a point), especially when more is added. It could be self defeating if used too many times, too.
That is why I mentioned needing to know if alcohol looses it's effectiveness in absorbing or displacing water at some point.

Only so much KNO3 can be added to hot water to make a super saturated solution- which is called for in this process. Since you have a known ratio amount of KNO3, then figuring out how much water is needed exactly would be easier. KNO3 is the oxidizer in the process, and the more presence, and even distribution it has, the better the burn.

If you dry out the drippings, I'd bet the quantity of KNO3 is very insignificant. You can even compost your paper filters to help your garden, too! :lol: :kidding:

I've got a Thumbler's Tumbler that I plan on using to mill the charcoal and sulfur together, when I get around to this. Going to cut the willow limbs today. :grin:

[zxcvbob]

you cant put all 3 ingrediens in the ball mill thats a pipe bomb waiting to happen and i think that too much water in the pot there you want to use just enough to cover the saltpeter. then let it dissolve then add the charcool and sulfur mix to a paste like clay

Sure you can, where's the source of ignition? Sealed rubber drum, and lead balls.

[atom73]

Making the charcoal itself is a neat process. That really makes me feel like i am in the old days. I have an old metal popcorn tin (like the christmas ones you get) that I use for making mine. The quality of the product came out really good with my very first batch too. It was fun to watch the gasses start to escape from the top vent hole and then ignite (I did mine in the firepit outside). Once the charcoal is done, dont open the tin till its cool or the product will ignite and your proceeds will go up in smoke. It was a strange conversation when I went over and asked the neighbor if I could cut some branches from his willow tree. When he said 'sure' he also asked what for. I dont think he believed me when I responded, "I'm making gunpowder".
Good Luck Charlie, Let us know how it goes.
Mike

[jmh54738]

I read this thread with interest, as when young, I made rockets and other pyrotechnic things. From reading this thread, I am led to perceive that making gunpowder was a home craft, or a cottage industry and our forefathers all made their own powder. I just don't recall ever reading that this was the case, as British powder was preferred, though the British restricted the quantities. DuPont build in 1804. Can anyone suggest reading material to support the home crafting of blackpowder? Extracting lye from wood ashes and making soap with animal fats was common on the prairie in pioneer days, but I just don't recall the same pioneering spirit with regard to black powder.

[atom73]

Probably not a cottage craft like soapmaking but it was something that more folks knew how to do. My guess is that it is a question of resources and volume, just like any other comodity. Most people didnt 'make' everything they used but the chain of middlemen was much shorter. If I can dig up an article covering black powder history I will. I think it would make a really cool "Modern Marvels" episode (gunpowder in general that is).

[jmh54738]

sent PM, Adam73,.....John

[camerl2009]

Sure you can, where's the source of ignition? Sealed rubber drum, and lead balls.

heat and friction

[fatboy]

Atom,
thanks for the post and the time spent to show us all. i have been preparing to make Black powder this winter also. Your post has helped shorten the R&D phase. I have found an easy source for salt peter(KNO3) at lowes. it is the spectricide stump remover, MSDS Sheet, and Spectricide web site list it as 100% KNO3 about 7.00 a pound. Thanks Again
Chip

[Charlie Sometimes]

I didn't get to cut the willow today- spent all afternoon in the dang unemployment office, and I mean ALL afternoon.:evil: I will tomorrow though- even if it is snowing again!

I've made char cloth in smaller retorts like I described for flint and steel fire starting kits before, so I know how that process works.

No, I don't think it was "cottage craft" "back in the day". :grin:
Even the mountain men bought their stock at rendezvous- they took the easy way out like we do today. I think our difference is that we have refined materials easily available to us NOW. They would have had to laboriously refine everything from the source, and their source weren't usually found in large quantities, except maybe for bat guano in the larger caves. Getting all components together in any quanity would have been a logistical nightmare for them.

Shoot, miners may have been the most likely to try to make BP, and may have tried to make there own nitro gylcerine at one time, I'm sure. THAT would definitely be a "Kids, do not try this at home. These people are professionals." project, IMHO. But probably has been done more recently somewhere, followed by a "Hey, ya'll! Watch this........." :bigsmyl2:

[Charlie Sometimes]

I thought "Stump Remover" was mostly Sodium Hydroxide (Lye)- better check before you buy a different product. I'm gonna look next time I get the chance.

[Karen]

Knowledge is power.

[Charlie Sometimes]

AND, powder is POWER! :lol:

[Boz330]

Charlie, if you search around on that earlier link to saltpeter you will find a kid that posted a video on refining KNO3. He mentions the stump remover and says that the Green Life and Spectracide are the 2 purist brands for it. Figures a 12 year old kid would know the best place to find this stuff.
We use to get it at the drug store but you had to wait for the little ole lady to be working the register. The druggist wouldn't sell it to mischievous looking young men.:bigsmyl2:

Bob

[wiljen]

Most of the fireworks making outfits still sell all the stuff you need in pure form if you are really wanting to try it.

pyrochemsupply.com
Firefox-fx.com
Skylighter.com

[Skipper]

Or, you could get 5 lbs of it for 7.50 here:


http://www.seattlepotterysupply.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=sps_ecat&Product_Code=72345&Category_Code=

[Charlie Sometimes]

I used to find it on the drug store shelves when I was a kid. Our druggist would sell it- in fact, I think he encouraged it! I guess he was just glad to see kids wanting to learn something, rather than be a hippy!

[zxcvbob]

I bought a bunch of 2 oz cellophane packages of potassium nitrate at local Asian market. (not sure if it's for curing sausage or what) I haven't opened one up and tasted it, but it looks about like the stuff I bought at the drug store as a kid. Much higher grade than nitrate stump remover.

[nascarkent]

I thought "Stump Remover" was mostly Sodium Hydroxide (Lye)- better check before you buy a different product. I'm gonna look next time I get the chance.

Thats drain cleaner:shock: Sodium Hydroxide (Lye)

[EOD3]

Charlie, if you search around on that earlier link to saltpeter you will find a kid that posted a video on refining KNO3. He mentions the stump remover and says that the Green Life and Spectracide are the 2 purist brands for it. Figures a 12 year old kid would know the best place to find this stuff.
We use to get it at the drug store but you had to wait for the little ole lady to be working the register. The druggist wouldn't sell it to mischievous looking young men.:bigsmyl2:

Bob

And a child shall lead them, or words to that affect... :D

[EOD3]

Thats drain cleaner:shock: Sodium Hydroxide (Lye)


Do NOT get powder manufacture and soap making mixed up, you'll rot your rifle and blow your butt off. :bigsmyl2:

[Charlie Sometimes]

Yea, I know what it is, and what it is used for.

The reason I said that about the Lye is because my neighbor had some not long ago that he was using, and I remember reading on the side of the plastic bottle that it had Sodium Hydroxide in it, and some other stuff, which I can't remember.

Just double check the contents of any product you get, is all I advise.

EOD3- THAT is funny, I don't care who you are!!!!!!! :lol:

[coopieclan]

Atom 73,
Great show & tell.

I'm not gonna do it but I'm glad you did!

It was better than when Captain Kirk shot the Gorn with diamonds.

CoopieClan

[wills]

http://www.skylighter.com/mall/chemicals.asp?Sort=P

Potassium Nitrate, and other chemicals.

[mold maker]

As far as doubting that BP was home made, Not everybody had a Dicks Sporting Goods , or even a drygoods nearby, when the nearest town might be over a hundred miles away.
Like everything else on the fronteer, you either produced it or did without. Many went for years depending solely on what they either made or grew.
If they grew cotton, spun yarn, made cloth, died it with natural colors, and sowed their clothes, why not make BP????

[perotter]

I have considered adding a dextrose binder but haven't tried it yet. Yes tumbling with graphite inhibits burn and protects the grains. It just worked so darn well when I shot it in my gun I really hate go screwing with it. I'm sure I will tho. I will post chrono info when I get it, might be a while.

You might want to try using gum. Red, arabic, etc. Unless I find a good reason not to do so, I won't make white powder, primer compounds & some ammid/ammon powders, etc without it.

[perotter]

http://www.skylighter.com/mall/chemicals.asp?Sort=P

Potassium Nitrate, and other chemicals.

They had an article in their newsletter on making your own BP a while back. IMO, worth reading.

[Matt3357]

What does the gum do for the BP? Does it act like a binder? Water proofer?

Matt

[shotman]

well do have a question WHY water just asking . using denature and small amount of sugar will work. also have used what we call coal bloom in WV . Never tried in a gun but does go bang or boom depends on amount

[Charlie Sometimes]

Now, I have never heard of "coal bloom"- please elaborate. Where do you find it- in the mine?
If that is where it comes from, and were very common, I'd think the mine owners would blame explosions on it rather than half-ass employees, improper procedure, or total disregard for safety, etc. :groner:

KNO3 is water soluble- that means it's possible to disolve the entire amount of it into a solution and distribute it fairly evenly in it's finest, most pure form to the rest of the components.

Supersaturation comes from heating the water so that it can absorb more of the KNO3- water expands and leave more room for the KNO3 molecules between the H2O molecules, basically. Nearly, the same principle as heat treating boolits- same idea anyway, but here you are adding material, and there you are rearranging material/strucutre.

I don't think KNO3 is soluble in alcohol at all. The water is absorbed/displaced by the alcohol and speeds up the process of drying- if I understand everything correctly. Correct me if I am wrong.

[perotter]

What does the gum do for the BP? Does it act like a binder? Water proofer?

Matt

A binder. Denser without having to use some sort of press to make it into a cake before grain.

http://www.skylighter.com/skylighter_info_pages/article.asp?Item=115#BP

My experience with various types of sugars haven't proven to be worth the time. But I don't claim to that there in no benefit to there use, just better things.

[Charlie Sometimes]

My reason for wanting to make BP is to be able to have a source, if for some reason I could not get commerical anymore (which is happening).
I would also like to get by with needing as few components as possible to make a useful and effective product.

How hard could gum be (or become) to locate over sugar, or can it be easily made locally?
Now in the same sense, sugar could soon become cost prohibitive, if not just plain hard to find, but can be rendered from various trees as well.

[perotter]

BP isn't sold here & the city is 100,000 people in it. Sugar is easier to get than gum. I think the only place in the US where natural gum can be gotten in the SW dessert. The sugars that you can make from a tree don't work as a binder. White powder is only KNO3 & sugar. And, IMO, is greatly benefited with a binder.

I think that those interested in DIY powders should try various ones & methods. Cover all the bases. Sulfur may not be available ready to go & takes time to make. No one thing is the best for every moment in time.

One thing that I've never tried is the brown powders. Something to be said about a powder made from grass clippings & KNO3.

FWIW, I make my own powders because it's interesting & cheaper.

[EOD3]

Atom 73,
Great show & tell.

I'm not gonna do it but I'm glad you did!

It was better than when Captain Kirk shot the Gorn with diamonds.

CoopieClan

OMG, a "trekker" has invaded the site, run for it... :groner::groner:

[atom73]

Made another batch today with my little girls. Pressed some of it into pellets that I will wrap in tissue paper 3 at a time so I can just dump the whole mess in the muzzle when loading. I used a 45acp with the web cut off (just a brass tube) and pressed it in. Then, pushed out the moist pellet with a pencil (eraser end) and let them dry. Burn test tomorrow.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u287/atom73/IMAG0198.jpg
I think next year, three of these behind a saboted 45 cast with straight lead should kill me a deer.
Mike

[EOD3]

Are you planning to mill them or just burn them as chunks?

[atom73]

Burn them as pellets just like pyrodex pellets. They take a little more work to make but will be more convenient than loose powder. Just trying stuff out.

[zxcvbob]

IF they don't work well, set a few aside in a warm dry place for a month and try them again. It made all the difference in the world with my powder. Your process may normally dry faster than mine, but those pellets don't have the surface area of loose powder.

Did you use any kind of binder? (I think about 1% shellac would be interesting to try. It would be soluble in the alcohol)

[atom73]

Haven't used a binder yet. Need to order some dextrose, gum arabic, or shell and try it out. It works for the pyrodex pellets, I just wanted to see if it would work with my recipe.

[waksupi]

I am guessing the pellets will burn like the cannon grade powder, and be pretty slow. Never can tell,though.
A simple cheap binder is egg whites.

[camerl2009]

I am guessing the pellets will burn like the cannon grade powder, and be pretty slow. Never can tell,though.
A simple cheap binder is egg whites.

lol it work good ive seen them made and shot in a cap lock i'll see if i can find the vid

[shotman]

hey charlie wonder if nitro gylcerine mixed in the black powder would make a bigger bang. nitro is easy and fun to make BIG exploding targets. . a 12ga shotgun shell full will make a BIG bang and a 12in X 6indeep hole in the ground

[EOD3]

Absolutely nothing compared to what it can do for your living arrangements...

IMHO: (and my opinion is uniquely good in this case) making NG without a complete understanding of what your doing AND why you're doing it as well as the exact correct equipment is a one way ticket to "Red Goo" :violin:[smilie=f:

[perotter]

Absolutely nothing compared to what it can do for your living arrangements...

IMHO: (and my opinion is uniquely good in this case) making NG without a complete understanding of what your doing AND why you're doing it as well as the exact correct equipment is a one way ticket to "Red Goo" :violin:[smilie=f:

IMHO you are 100% correct. And my opinion comes from the fact that if red fumes start appearing, I can't run 30,000 fps.

FWIW If I ever had a great need to make some, the equipment would be remotely controlled. I'd stay far enough away to ponder what went wrong & decide if I wanted to buy new equipment.

[perotter]

A simple cheap binder is egg whites.

That's a great idea! Cheap & available. I'm going to try that tonite or tomorrow. I've been working on primer compounds. My experience is that it is critical to have a binder for the type of non corrosives that I'm making & testing.

[perotter]

Burn them as pellets just like pyrodex pellets. They take a little more work to make but will be more convenient than loose powder. Just trying stuff out.

If you think that they are burning to slow, you can make them with a hole in the center.

There is free software for helping you calculate out the changes that different size holes & hole shape makes.

[Matt3357]

perotter,

When you gonna give a detailed tutorial on primer compounds?

Matt

[perotter]

I've posted some on corrosives over at reloaderz.com. There is a reference to a non corrosive, but that one really only works in berdan primers. The other site that I have posted more at declared primer making a verboten topic.

It will be a little while before I will post anything about my current mixes that work in boxer primers. Because it is "green" it may have a commercial value & is - to the best of my knowledge - patentable. I have to make some a few more basic tests. Iif they prove good than I'll file the for a patent. A month or 2 should do it.

For those members who live outside the US, you can buy red phosphorous. Then making your own non corrosives is easy. A nitrate(lead, barium, potassium, etc) & red phosphorous will do. The US army used a barium nitrate/red phosphorous mix right after WW2. In the US, one can buy rp if they own a corp & get 6 corps to give a them a reference(really).

FWIW, these mixes are simple and don't need any type of special equipment.

[camerl2009]

I've posted some on corrosives over at reloaderz.com. There is a reference to a non corrosive, but that one really only works in berdan primers. The other site that I have posted more at declared primer making a verboten topic.

It will be a little while before I will post anything about my current mixes that work in boxer primers. Because it is "green" it may have a commercial value & is - to the best of my knowledge - patentable. I have to make some a few more basic tests. Iif they prove good than I'll file the for a patent. A month or 2 should do it.

For those members who live outside the US, you can buy red phosphorous. Then making your own non corrosives is easy. A nitrate(lead, barium, potassium, etc) & red phosphorous will do. The US army used a barium nitrate/red phosphorous mix right after WW2. In the US, one can buy rp if they own a corp & get 6 corps to give a them a reference(really).

FWIW, these mixes are simple and don't need any type of special equipment.

well i know here in canada you cant find red phosphorous hell you cant even get saltpeter

[atom73]

So I decided to post a quick how to for making charcoal for those who haven't done it.
You will need; a metal tin (like a cookie tin, an old popcorn tin, etc) that has a tight lid and your wife wont miss. Punch a hole or two in the lid with a screwdriver. The heated wood releases gasses that will vent out of these holes.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u287/atom73/IMAG0202.jpg

Start with freshly cut, green willow. Strip the bark, and make sure they will fit in your tin. Pack in tightly.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u287/atom73/IMAG0203.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u287/atom73/IMAG0207.jpg

Next, build a fire, get a good bed of coals going, place the tin packed with your willow in the center of the fire and build up wood around it.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u287/atom73/IMAG0215.jpg

As the wood inside heats, it will off gas water and other components from the wood leaving behind only pure charcoal. The vents will flame up once the gasses get hot enough, if you look close you can see two flames coming out of the vents. Let the fire burn with the tin in until these flames go out. That signals the end of the off gassing and the only constituent left behind will be charcoal. If you leave it in too long the charcoal will begin to burn. Take the tin out, leave the lid on till it's cool. Once it is cool, open the lid (if you open it when it's too hot, the oxygen from the open air will ignite the superheated charcoal). You can now grind your proceeds into dust. I use an old meat grinder, screen the powder, regrind the larger screenings in a mortar and pestle. Use as needed.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u287/atom73/IMAG0223.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u287/atom73/IMAG0224.jpg

Enjoy.
Mike

[EOD3]

That's a great idea! Cheap & available. I'm going to try that tonite or tomorrow. I've been working on primer compounds. My experience is that it is critical to have a binder for the type of non corrosives that I'm making & testing.

As in impact/pinch ignition primer compound? The federales can be somewhat troublesome in some circumstances. :brokenima

[Charlie Sometimes]

hey charlie wonder if nitro gylcerine mixed in the black powder would make a bigger bang. nitro is easy and fun to make BIG exploding targets. . a 12ga shotgun shell full will make a BIG bang and a 12in X 6indeep hole in the ground

You have tried that, too? :veryconfu

That is what is added to modern double based powders, IIRC.
If I want those, then I will BUY them from a factory. I am NOT messing with NG, or TNT, for that matter. :veryconfu
I watched them make it on and episode of GUNSMOKE once- that wagon never made it to the mine! That is all I needed to see. :lol:

[Charlie Sometimes]

If you think that they are burning to slow, you can make them with a hole in the center.

There is free software for helping you calculate out the changes that different size holes & hole shape makes.

That is why Pyrodex puts the hole in them, IIRC. More efficient burn, with better surface area to burn on.

[perotter]

As in impact/pinch ignition primer compound? The federales can be somewhat troublesome in some circumstances. :brokenima

I'm in the US not Mexico so the federales aren't around. In the US it is legal for your own use. I talked to both the ATF & the DEA about it to make sure that I hadn't misread the law. The DEA because some chems that can be used in primers are on there "list" & I wanted to make sure that it was ok for me to buy them.

[perotter]

I like that using the meat grinder grinding the charcoal.

[Matt3357]

What about an old blender for the charcoal?

Matt

[EOD3]

What about an old blender for the charcoal?

Matt

Charcoal "dust" and un-sealed electric motors do not get along well. Vacuum cleaners are worse.

[Matt3357]

ooo good point, should have known better, I have lit dust on fire many times and work in the appliance motor industry, I'll just chalk it up to a brain fart. What else could one use to grind up the charcoal?

Matt

[Charlie Sometimes]

Blender, or some sort of Miracle Chopper, is what I was thinking, too.
They make those with lids that seal pretty good now.

Bash it with a hammer, to reduce size, and then ball mill?

[Matt3357]

A ball mill could definitely be doable. Could work for adding graphite to my homemade shot too and some brass tumbling too. Would the ball mill break up the charcoal chunks?

Matt

[Charlie Sometimes]

EVENTUALLY. :bigsmyl2:
That is why I said pound it with a hammer first.

[atom73]

My meat grinder makes pretty quick work of it. Of that whole batch I got about a cup and a half of screenings that had to be ran in my mortar and pestle. I tell you guys, its really great to have a sounding board to bounce ideas around. I started this project thinking I was a little odd for wanting to do it, glad to know I'm not the only one...

[Matt3357]

I agree the meat grinder would be ideal, but I don't think the girlfriend would like me running willow charcoal through the meat grinder attachment on her brand new Kitchenaide mixer. I'll be keeping a look out at the garage sales this spring.

Matt

[EOD3]

Hey, if that Kitchenaid can't stand up to willow charcoal, you need to find out ASAP before it lets you (her) down at an inopportune time. :bigsmyl2:

PS: The "gear box" in the Kitchenaid has a neoprene gear that's supposed to be the first to break. Order one now and she may never find out about the charcoal.. :bigsmyl2:

[Matt3357]

If all of a sudden I stop posting on here, you'll know what happened. Just call the police and tell them to look in the meat grinder, she'll have fixed it and then run me through it to hide the evidence. :bigsmyl2:

[PatMarlin]

My meat grinder makes pretty quick work of it. Of that whole batch I got about a cup and a half of screenings that had to be ran in my mortar and pestle. I tell you guys, its really great to have a sounding board to bounce ideas around. I started this project thinking I was a little odd for wanting to do it, glad to know I'm not the only one...

Definitely no alone as we're all odd balls here Atom.. :mrgreen:

Great thread!~

[Matt3357]

I think that is why I like it here so much, we all have the same mind set, even if everyone else thinks I am a little crazy and obsessive :bigsmyl2:

[Charlie Sometimes]

There have been other threads on here about this very topic.
I've read just about all of them- just can't get around to actually doing it.
That will be changing very soon, I hope. :bigsmyl2:

I've got a book or two on this somewhere, along with flint knapping, blacksmithing, brain tanning, etc.
I'd like to think that I have gained a lot of "survival" knowledge from reading and doing things like this, and could really do most of it IF I had too- don't really want to HAVE to though, if you know what I mean. :lol:
I'm getting too old for finding out, but the way things are going these days, we just might get to test our skills regularly very soon. :rolleyes:

[Ron60]

Just to add to the chatter; in 1974 I was working at Green River Rifle Works in Roosevelt Utah. Several of my friends were working out at the Green River Powder mill loading a truck with a just finished batch of powders ready to be shipped. This was about 5 - 6 miles from the rifle works. We felt the place shake and everyone knew instantly what happened. Everyone at the mill was lost. There was nothing left to bury. To this day no one knows what happend. Moral of the story: even at $25 per pound Alaska prices it's a good deal - - -
But you know - I still think I'd like to try making a little =)

[Charlie Sometimes]

Today, I was going through some boxes of stuff I had put away and found a copy of Army TM31-210 Improvised Munitions (from back in my Marine Security Guard training days)! Forgot I had it. :oops: I lost so much stuff several years ago when I was flooded, I can't remember what I have or don't have sometimes. :sad:
It has LOTS of different and VERY INTERESTING information in it on various concoctions. It has a very good "how-to" chapter on BP, as well.
I intend to peruse it further next week, as the chance presents itself. :mrgreen:

[Charlie Sometimes]

Just to add to the chatter; in 1974 I was working at Green River Rifle Works in Roosevelt Utah. Several of my friends were working out at the Green River Powder mill loading a truck with a just finished batch of powders ready to be shipped. This was about 5 - 6 miles from the rifle works. We felt the place shake and everyone knew instantly what happened. Everyone at the mill was lost. There was nothing left to bury. To this day no one knows what happend. Moral of the story: even at $25 per pound Alaska prices it's a good deal - - -
But you know - I still think I'd like to try making a little =)


STATIC is probably what happened. From everything I have read about large manufacturing facilities of BP and their operations, that is what caused explosions 99% of the time.

The above scenerio occured around the time OSHA was created, IIRC. Knowing how they "regulate" things now, I wonder what safety precautions were utilized back then without that agencies guidelines? Not trying to place blame on anyone, but I would suspect someone short cut a "standard" practice.

That might be part of the reason federal regulations make you store it in such small batches. But that doesn't explain why the companies that transport it have issues with it (other than making more money in charging fees for transporting it)- I've never heard of a BIG BROWN truck circling the moon yet.

[waksupi]

Just to add to the chatter; in 1974 I was working at Green River Rifle Works in Roosevelt Utah. Several of my friends were working out at the Green River Powder mill loading a truck with a just finished batch of powders ready to be shipped. This was about 5 - 6 miles from the rifle works. We felt the place shake and everyone knew instantly what happened. Everyone at the mill was lost. There was nothing left to bury. To this day no one knows what happend. Moral of the story: even at $25 per pound Alaska prices it's a good deal - - -
But you know - I still think I'd like to try making a little =)



Ron, I remember when that happened. Too bad for the workers, and the powder. It was some good stuff. I think I still have one of the empty cans around somewhere.

[I Haines]

I'm in the US not Mexico so the federales aren't around. In the US it is legal for your own use. I talked to both the ATF & the DEA about it to make sure that I hadn't misread the law. The DEA because some chems that can be used in primers are on there "list" & I wanted to make sure that it was ok for me to buy them.

This is what I found on another ML website-

(d) Except for the purposes of subsections (d), (e), (f), (g), (h), (i), and (j) of section 844 of this title, "explosives" means any chemical compound mixture, or device, the primary or common purpose of which is to function by explosion- the term includes, but is not limited to, dynamite and other high explosives, black powder, pellet powder, initiating explosives, detonators, safety fuses, squibs, detonating cord, igniter cord, and igniters.

(h) "Manufacturer" means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing explosive materials for purposes of sale of distribution or for his own use.

(n) "Distribute" means sell, issue, give, transfer, or otherwise dispose of.

[perotter]

Here is the full law:

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div5&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.3.5&idno=27

The part that applies here:

(a) General. Except for the provisions of §§555.180 and 555.181, this part does not apply to:

(4) Small arms ammunition and components of small arms ammunition.

Here is 555.180:

(a) No person shall manufacture any plastic explosive that does not contain a detection agent.

Also:

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5400-7.pdf

In part:

16. Is small arms ammunition subject to regulation under Federal explosives laws?
No. The law specifically exempts small arms ammunition and components thereof.

37. When is a manufacturer’s license required?
....... Persons who manufacture explosives for their personal, non-business use are not required to have a manufacturer’s license.

[Charlie Sometimes]

Thank you perotter for adding more to clarify the "legalese" injected into the discussion, and posting a link for all to read for further and ensure compliance with the intent of the law. 8-)

If someone is going to quote LAWS, I think you should quote all of it, and not just pieces of it, to avoid confusion and misunderstanding. Or, you can FULLY DISCLOSE YOUR SOURCE, by providing a link for READING the whole thing to ensure no mistunderstanding and get full intent, then quote (as perotter did). :coffeecom "Another ML site" is not good enough for me- the CFR site IS.

Interpretation is sometimes critical- and perotter did the right things by pursuing further clarification from the BATFE and DEA in his area, to ensure compliance and avoid unintentional legal problems. :-?

Partial quotation of law is like quoting from the Bible. Pieces taken out of context don't always mean what you are attempting to equate them to without the full content, and can cause division and derision. The Bible says "Prove all things."- good advice in more than just religion. :-D

Don't pick out the piece "Thou shalt not." and stop there, without providing the why and wherefores, or the exceptions to the rules. :veryconfu

[atom73]

Good call, thanks for posting the 'rules'. I felt that i was in the clear (even though would continue to make my own regardless) based on what I have heard others say but that really isnt solid proof. So thank you for doing the legwork for the rest of us.
Mike

[EOD3]

Most people that post "rules" are well intentioned but they typically conduct their research from the point of view of "prove my opinion is correct". Want to start a real argument, start discussing the ins & outs of firearm suppressors. People will come flying out of the woodwork to demand you stop discussing one of the "forbidden knowledge" topics. Here in the Peoples Republic, 8 out of 10 people will INSIST switchblade knives are illegal. To bad it isn't true.

Let the war begin... :bigsmyl2:

[Old Ironsights]

...Let the war begin... :bigsmyl2:

Ragnarok & Roll Baby! :twisted:

[Charlie Sometimes]

I pruned some apple trees yesterday, and there were some pretty nice pieces laying around. I am going to strip the bark off them tomorrow and let them dry out a little, before I attempt to make some apple wood charcoal. The grain is pretty dense, and looks like a good candidate for a BP component.
I haven't got to pruning the black willow trees yet. Winter weather has finally given way, and I am busy playing catch up on more pressing spring needs before it turns nasty again (you know it will at least two more times before spring officially arrives). It ain't like they are going to sprout legs and walk away, huh? :lol:

[EOD3]

Yep, day before yesterday it was wet and dreary, today EVERYTHING is budding or blooming... Maybe I overslept. :-(

[perotter]

One thing that I've seen come up on threads of this nature, is that it is illegal to talk or write about this topic. That is only true in the following when there is intent of committing a crime:

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5400-7.pdf

Page 5 I think.

"(A) to teach or demonstrate the making or use of an explosive, a destructive device, or a weapon of mass destruction, or to distribute by any means information pertaining to, in whole or in part, the manufacture or use of an explosive, destructive device, or weapon of mass destruction, with the intent that the teaching, demonstration, or information be used for, or in furtherance of, an activity that constitutes a Federal crime of violence; or

(B) to teach or demonstrate to any person the making or use of an explosive, a destructive device, or a weapon of mass destruction, or to distribute to any person, by any means, information pertaining to, in whole or in part, the manufacture or use of an explosive, destructive device, or weapon of mass destruction, knowing that such person intends to use the teaching, demonstration, or information for, or in furtherance of, an activity that constitutes a Federal crime of violence."

Bold I added.

[perotter]

Made another batch today with my little girls. Pressed some of it into pellets that I will wrap in tissue paper 3 at a time so I can just dump the whole mess in the muzzle when loading. I used a 45acp with the web cut off (just a brass tube) and pressed it in. Then, pushed out the moist pellet with a pencil (eraser end) and let them dry. Burn test tomorrow.

Mike

Mike,

How did they work out?

[cavalrymedic]

My 16 year old son has been making his own BP for over a year now and he makes some really good stuff. I buy him the Saltpeter from Tractor Supple. It's sold as stump remover, but it's pure SP that needs to be finely ground. That is accomplished in a coffee/spice mill until it has the consistency of confectioner's sugar. Then some hardwood charcoal is ground the same way. We could ude the charcoaling in a can method for making good charcoal, but I just get my charcoal out of the fireplace and that has been working well for small amounts. The sulfur comes from the local drug store. Blend well and use a little bit of water to get granules of BP. Sift through a garden sifter to get nearly uniform sized BP grains. If I want lots of smoke, and who doesn't, I use more sulfur. You can actually make BP without sulfur and it is nearly smokeless. The only problem is that this raises the flashpoint of the BP to the point that you could get a few hangfires. You can't use the sulfurless powder as flashpan powder cause you need a really low flashpoint. Anyway. Making BP is fun and really really easy. Cheap too. For regular smokey BP I use , by volume, 2 parts SP, 1 part charcoal, 1/2 part sulfur.

[Flash]

This has been an interesting thread. I remember as a kid, me and my buddies would go to Drug Fair and buy bottles of Potasium Nitrate and Sulfer flower then, crush up Kingsford Charcoal and even though it was primitive, it was fun. We also learned on Hawaii Five O, how to make fuses out of the magnesium hair in the old camera flash bulbs and the mercury switches in furnace thermostats. I guess the Feds invented video games to stop kids from doing this stuff. 8-)

[Hellgate]

cavalrymedic,
Why not measure the ingredients by weight rather than volume? I'm thinking that the grind and fluffiness would make a difference just like using sifted flour vs packed flour, same volume but way different weight.

[cavalrymedic]

the volume seems to work pretty well. Once the stuff is all ground up, we just use a small plastic kitchen measuring cup. No weighing required. It turns out that with BP the exact mixture isn't really crucial. A little more SP, or a little less, very little difference.

[T-Bird]

I'm going to try this. I made some "dextrin" from cornstarch in a skillet last night( amid a hail of questions concerning why I was sauteing cornstarch) from a procedure I got off the net. When should I add this if I choose to try it? Shoot straight T-Bird

[Charlie Sometimes]

I finally got all the bark off the apple wood- lot more of it than what I thought, and a little more time consuming. It didn't strip off as easily as I thought it would, being from a dormant tree. I cut it into shorter pieces that would fit into my retort, and make it easier to set in the house and strip them (raining and snowing over the weekend- perfect weather for this project).

Something I noticed while stripping- there was a light build up of "tar" on my knife that I used in stripping and scraping. I would venture to say that "tar" would help add to the charcoals effectiveness over other types of wood.
Going to go trim the willow now, so I can see if that same condition exists in lesser or greater quantity. Probably the natural sugar factor.

[atom73]

T-bird,
I dont know where in the manufacturing would be the ideal time to add the dextrin. I havent tried it yet so it looks like you are gonna be the one to report on it ;) My guess would be after you have precipitated out the KNO3 and maybe after you have drained off some of the liquid. It does have to be wet otherwise it wont work. Please let us know how it works out.
Charlie,
I have read that the softer woods are better for making BP charcoal but am interested in your efforts with apple wood anyway. So please let us know how it goes, I think I posted about a guy that I read about somewhere that swore by using grass to make his (I bet hay/straw would work).
Mike

[Fly]

Just add 5% dextrin by weight in when you ball mill.I use gum arobic instead, for you only
need 2%.Use boiling hot water when you dampen & it really helps in harder grains.

Fly

[Boz330]

It has been at least 50+ years since I made my last BP but I'm getting kind of interested in trying some in BPCR just for grins and giggles. Been eyeballing for some willow but haven't seen much that is easy to get to.

Bob

[Charlie Sometimes]

I cut some of the willow today, and a few other types for comparison, while pruning the trees along my creek bank today. It was a really nice day to be outside (partly cloudy, mid 50's & breezy), and this project provided incentive to to finish the pruning work I started two weeks or more ago. :smile:

The willow seemed to be more pithy under the bark, and lighter wood, but grain is not open, and not much smell; I need bigger pieces for better comparisons, I think.

Some of the other tree sample had little to no pith under the bark and are heavier, and even smell green. Sap is starting to run in some of the trees now, too. Cut some low thumb size limbs off a couple of trees and water just poured for a little while; the higher ones didn't.

I have some sumac and large grape vines nearby- they are my next target! Looks like I am going to have several small batches whenever I get around to making test charcoal. :groner: :lol:

I think I am going to try to locate a coffee grinder to grind my charcoal, or a used bullet chopper or similar appliance to make it like flour, I hope. :wink:

[T-Bird]

I am going to add the dextrin in with the sulfur/charcoal, will mix it well, then add it to the KNO3 solution. I am the family cook and I thicken alot of sauces with cornstarch(mostly asian), so I know cornstarch/water mixtures change alot at the boiling point. Didn't know how this impacted the "project" Not going to be tomorrow, but when I get some "alone time". Will report back. Shoot Straight, T-Bird

[Fly]

T-Bird you MUST ball mill your powder or it won't perform well at all.Your meal powder must
be as fine as baby powder, before you granulate it.
Fly

[perotter]

T-bird,

.... I read about somewhere that swore by using grass to make his (I bet hay/straw would work).
Mike

When it is made with grass or straw it is call brown powder or cocoa powder. Rye straw was the preferred base. The max amount of sulfur was 5%. Some had no sulfur in them. For example - Germany 80% KNO3 & 20% rye charcoal & France 78% KNO3, 19% rye charcoal & 3% sulfur. The powder was denser than normal black powder & burned slower.

Many of the modern military's back in the day used them for their rifled artillery. Including the US Navy. They weren't grained like black powder, but formed into perforated shapes. Hexagon, Octagon, etc.

The above is based on what is in Tenny Davis's book.

It is reported to be more sensitive to friction than BP. There were some deadly accidents with it during the Spanish American War.

[T-Bird]

Fly, Atom73 isn't ball milling his powder. He says his works well T-Bird

[Charlie Sometimes]

What is the name of the Tenny Davis book? Sounds like one reference I need to have and read.

Seems odd that the lighter wood is the prefered, but grass/straw is too light. Works, but must not have enough carbon in it for the process. Reversing that, you would think denser wood would be more optimal.

Grass/straw sure would be easier to make charcoal out of- no bark stripping or grinding would remove a lot of time. That stuff would go to powder probably just by shaking the retort after being fired.

[waksupi]

Fly, Atom73 isn't ball milling his powder. He says his works well T-Bird

I'm not sure that "working well" has been established, as I don't think accuracy testing has been done with the powder. There is a difference between powder that goes bang, and powder that is good quality.

[Charlie Sometimes]

YES, I neglected that aspect in my commentary.
We have not seen any results from that side of the equation, yet.
It is my intention to make and use mine for shooting, so eventually I will get there. ::bigsmyl2:

But since we are starting from somewhere in the 1700's technology (maybe), how long will it take to get up to late 1800's quality?

[EOD3]

This has been an interesting thread. I remember as a kid, me and my buddies would go to Drug Fair and buy bottles of Potasium Nitrate and Sulfer flower then, crush up Kingsford Charcoal and even though it was primitive, it was fun. We also learned on Hawaii Five O, how to make fuses out of the magnesium hair in the old camera flash bulbs and the mercury switches in furnace thermostats. I guess the Feds invented video games to stop kids from doing this stuff. 8-)

Video games? We had super-fun activities like hauling hay or clearing dead-wood from the orchards... :groner:

Long ago we occasionally made our own fireworks but, when I was a kid, it was easier to just go down to the hardware store and buy dynamite and electric caps. [smilie=w:

[Fly]

Fly, Atom73 isn't ball milling his powder. He says his works well T-Bird

Well he is using what is called the CIA method to making BP.I have never made
it that way.None of the manufactures make it that way.

I'm not saying it is bad, for I never made mind like that, as most people don't.
But if you may, try & see what you think.Report back, for I would like to know
from another making powder with the CIA method.

Fly:bigsmyl2:

[T-Bird]

Well, I was going by what he said in his 1st post it "performed really well" when he used it in his gun. Since he is a muzzleloader shooter I assumed that "really well" would mean something more than it just went BANG. And fly-I''ll play-what does CIA stand for? I know you're dying to tell me. Shoot Straight T-Bird

[perotter]

What is the name of the Tenny Davis book? Sounds like one reference I need to have and read.



The title of the book is "The Chemistry of Powder & Explosives". He was a prof at MIT. Wrote the book in 1941 at the request of the US gov to help with the war effort.

FWIW, the guys with Phd's(North American ones) in this topic believe that maple is the wood to use for BP. The reason being that the pore size from tree to tree is more uniform & uniform chem make up. The one's from Japan say use charcoal from coconut hulls(rare in Minnesota & Wisconsin).

[waksupi]

Well, I was going by what he said in his 1st post it "performed really well" when he used it in his gun. Since he is a muzzleloader shooter I assumed that "really well" would mean something more than it just went BANG. And fly-I''ll play-what does CIA stand for? I know you're dying to tell me. Shoot Straight T-Bird

When previously asked, accuracy had not been determined, and I seem to recall a bit of a snit that the question would be asked.

[Fly]

Thats funny you brought up maple.Some of the best charcoal of my testing is Silver Mable.
During the civil war the north used willow & the south used cotton wood.I think it was more,
do to avaliblity at the time.
Fly

[atom73]

My definition of "working well was four shots giving a 2 inch group at 50 yards. I have not chrono'ed it yet, I was using 230 gr 45 cal saboted in a .50 Black Diamond by TC. The recoil was less than with pyrodex but it felt crisp/sharp, not slow at all.
mike

[Charlie Sometimes]

I think that is why I picked the apple wood to try. I read something somewhere about it, and I remember something about sugar maple, too. I also remember something about coconut hulls, too. Probably another thread about this topic.

So many trees, and so little time! :groner:

[atom73]

No snit meant about the performance question to anyone. The only issue I have is when someone tries to tell me I am making it wrong. I know folks do things differently here, I originally posted the project hoping others would get excited about a throwing our own lead with our own powder. I have since learned a bunch about bp and even look forward to ball milling my own someday (for now I will stick to the wet method until I get a mill). The process I originally described isn't the only way or the best way but it is a way that works. By 'works' I mean, a good group at 50 yards with a saboted .45. When I vs chrono it I will, that will be the true scientific test. Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this little corner of knowledge. No offense meant to anyone (Waksupi).

[atom73]

should we start to call the guys that ball mill "ballers" and the wet process "wetters" when we talk about how we make our bp ;)

[Charlie Sometimes]

should we start to call the guys that ball mill "ballers" and the wet process "wetters" when we talk about how we make our bp ;)

Now that is FUNNY right there, I don't care who you are! :bigsmyl2:

When you chrongraph, be sure to include as many factory powder loads as you can. I'd love to see grain for grain load and velocity comparisons! :grin:
If you need samples, I have some Elephant 2Fg, and some Goex 3Fg that I could send you small amounts to include in the test.

[waksupi]

No snit meant about the performance question to anyone. The only issue I have is when someone tries to tell me I am making it wrong. I know folks do things differently here, I originally posted the project hoping others would get excited about a throwing our own lead with our own powder. I have since learned a bunch about bp and even look forward to ball milling my own someday (for now I will stick to the wet method until I get a mill). The process I originally described isn't the only way or the best way but it is a way that works. By 'works' I mean, a good group at 50 yards with a saboted .45. When I vs chrono it I will, that will be the true scientific test. Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this little corner of knowledge. No offense meant to anyone (Waksupi).

None taken, I just am interested in having all the facts and figures possible available, so people can make good consistent powder.

[Fly]

The only issue I have is when someone tries to tell me I am making it wrong.

Atom I certainly hope you did not take what I said as saying you were doing it wrong.If
you go back & read my post, I said I have never made it that way & can't comment on
that.

I did say most people make it with ballmill grinding as do the manufactors.I also ask
T-bird to try yours & post back the results.

I'm glad you posted making it that way, for it's another way to skin the cat.I never quit trying
new charcoal & so on in the "quest for the best" back powder.

All I can say is mind has out performed Goex & that is what I set out to do.
If you would like to PM me please do for two heads are better than one.

Fly

[T-Bird]

Well, I'm going to try it. I have everything but the sulfur(I don't think that will be a problem).Life has intruded again on my project . It might not be for a week or 2, but when I make it, if it burns vigorously in the yard, we're going to the range. Y'all will hear either way. Shoot Straight, T-Bird

[nanuk]

ingredients are the real issue up here

seems the Gov't has listed everything they could think of on a restricted list as it can all be used in Meth production or something

I went looking for KN02 and was told by most that the Gov't sent letters around telling them not to sell it, return to wholesaler for refund.

and most just look at you funny when you ask about sulpher

[montana_charlie]

I think I am going to try to locate a coffee grinder to grind my charcoal, or a used bullet chopper or similar appliance to make it like flour, I hope.I have no expertise on this subject, but...

My wife uses a kitchen appliance to make very fine flour from wheat kernels, or any other grain. It may be somewhat pricey for your intended use, but it's rugged and strong...and turns two cups of grain into flour in less than a minute.

It's called the Vita-Mix.

CM

[Skipper]

ingredients are the real issue up here

seems the Gov't has listed everything they could think of on a restricted list as it can all be used in Meth production or something

I went looking for KN02 and was told by most that the Gov't sent letters around telling them not to sell it, return to wholesaler for refund.

and most just look at you funny when you ask about sulpher


You can buy it here hassle free:


http://www.seattlepotterysupply.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=sps_ecat&Product_Code=72345&Category_Code=

[Fly]

Kno3, also called salt peter is used as fetilizer for tomatos.It it legal in the USA or I would
never started making it.I can list you places to buy it & sulfur if you would like.

The ONLY reason I started making it was most gun stores quit handling it for insurance
reasons in case of a fire.

So I make my own for less than $2 a lb.
Fly

[perotter]

Most garden supply stores have sulfur.

There is KNO3 listed for sale on the Canadian Ebay. If you can't get KNO3 in Canada, you can make it from most "instant cold packs" & Lite Salt or lye(potassium hydroxide).

The cold packs that you want are the ones that list ammonium nitrate on them or list nothing. The ones that use urea in them won't work with the above method. Again these are available on the Canadian Ebay. Many garden supply store have calcium and/or sodium nitrate. These can be converted to KNO3.

[perotter]

FWIW. If ordering for Seattle Pottery Supply, one may want to also buy some potassium carbonate. Then making yellow priming powder for a flintlock can be done. Yellow priming powder is what guys were switching to when percussion cap came out.

I don't have flintlock so I've never tried it. But I might make some for educational reasons.

[T-Bird]

I meant to ask, is it safe to store this black powder in smokeless canisters? They are plastic, but surely non-sparking (is that a term?). T-Bird

[Fly]

T-Bird plastic is fine.Static is not setting it off & I,m not going there again with anyone.

Fly

[wills]

Try skylighter for your chemicals.

[Charlie Sometimes]

I think it is a LARGE amount of static that causes problems, not what we experience in handling small quantities in reloading. I would think plastic is better to protect against moisture anyway.

I'll look up the Vita-Mix and compare to a unit I saw in Kmart the other day that would grind coffee beans ($16). It seals everything away from the motor and air exposure. :smile:

And I'm not fooling with anything but these 3 basic components- simplicity is best in my book. Needing another component to make a special priming powder would be defeating the purpose if it should become hard to come by.

Finding a local supplier of BP is impossible anymore, because of the dang the shipping fees and regs. I'll just make it myself then.

[Charlie Sometimes]

OMG! Vita-mix is not even a comparable unit- BIG money!
Not something I will be considering, but they do make a super-HD unit.

[Wayne Smith]

Guys, if you are really curious about the power of your various powders Dixie Gunworks used to sell, and probably still does, a powder tester. Looks like a pistol with a spring loaded plate covering the barrel. They used to have them in both flint and cap lock.

I once had a piece that was re-published from the Confederate government explaining to farmers how to percipitate saltpeter out of cattle manure. I don't know how much making the powder was a cottage industry, but making saltpeter was.

[EOD3]

Static electricity (or any other kind for that matter) is not what bites your butt. Most people understand (probably all or most of the people here) that electrically generated heat requires a curtain amount of resistance to generate heat at a given point. Resistance to current flow is what cooks fuses, and starts fires.

Caution is a good thing in any case...

[castingagain]

Great Thread and a lot of great contributors.
I was wondering all through the 10 pages about pressures, so I appreciate Wayne mentioning devices exist,(or did) and if I recall correctly in Phil Sharps 1947 bible there was a statement made about BP producing a pressure no greater than 12,000 to 14,000 PSI because the pressure kills the "fire" limiting pressure.
The reason I ask is that the info pertained to common factory made BP powder and Presures could be greater, or less, with different mixtures when home made.
If I'm wrong about where I read that it will take six weeks to find it in my library, anyone know?

[perotter]

Here's a link to a study of how & why BP work:

http://www.pyrobin.com/files/black%20powder%20blackwood%20%26%20bowden.pdf

For example, cover tests in areas like- friction, sulfurless, impact, sparks, etc. One practical use of the study, might be for picking charcoals to use.

[perotter]

I have Phil Sharpe's 1937 book. A couple of things he writes about BP, is of his friend the lost 3 fingers & gained facial scars when making a 1 lb batch & about an excellent commercial BP that had charcoal made from peas.

[Charlie Sometimes]

Thanks for the link- will save and read it over. :smile:

Peas? Sweet, no doubt.
Dried peas would sure be easy to find.
Next it will be Corn, Lima Beans, or how about Pinto Beans for the extra gas?
As Sylvester would say, "Suthferin' Succotash!" :lol:

[nanuk]

CM: from what I have gleaned from others who seem to know what they are talking about, the softer/lighter the raw cellulose, the better the charcoal for BP.

CornCob would probably work

[Charlie Sometimes]

Wonder if someone has ever used dried corn, made hominy out of it, dried that, and then turned it into hominy charcoal? That would be fluffier, and better for you, too. :grin:
How about Orville Redenbacker's Popcorn charcoal? :kidding:

LOTS of options to tinker with, isn't there. :groner:

[nanuk]

wouldn't it pop in the retort????

might make a bomb?

[perotter]

I think that it was pea vines or pods that were used & not the seeds. I think I read that somewhere once. But, right now I'm not sure. The seeds may not be porous enough.

With charcoal the things that is wanted:
1. The pores for the KNO3 & sulfur to go into.
2. The chemical residues that is left after the char process. This is what pure carbon doesn't provide.

These 2 things being the same batch after batch is what is sought after.

[Charlie Sometimes]

wouldn't it pop in the retort????

might make a bomb?

Pop it first- in a hot air popper (remember, no butter or salt :lol:), then put it in the retort. I know burnt popcorn is pretty nasty, but might be good for BP charcoal.

I think you are right, perotter. Probably the pea vines, maybe pods, too. I do think I have read that somewhere, myself. The charcoal must absorb/bind with the KNO3, and help lock everything together.

[perotter]

I was wrong. It is the seeds. Here is a thread on it & details about charcoal:

http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=3390.0

Here a a patent for it.
http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT381507&id=y4FgAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=gunpowder#v=onepage&q=gunpowder&f=false

[Charlie Sometimes]

That was fast- I didn't even have time to search WHERE I had read, forget WHAT I read! :grin:
Well, that shoots the theory of the density or the porosity in the foot, don't it?

The willow charcoal was charred to yield the maximum amount of creosote retained in the charcoal.
The carbonized peas were used to slow the powder down for use with heavy elongated bullets.
Willow charcoal is not as fast as the buckthorn alder used in the very fast, very hot-burning sporting powders. But behind heavy projectiles it still produced gas temperatures high enough to produce baked fouling in the bore. Use a small percentage of a charred starch and you "temper" the combustion a bit. Charred peas, or any other starchy material, and you have a charcoal that can be ground to an extremely fine particle size that produces almost no ash (mineral content). You could do essentially the same thing with charred potatoes.

So I guess the "light and fluffy is faster, heavy and dense is slower" actually correspond to burn rates in BP?

[EOD3]

I have Phil Sharpe's 1937 book. A couple of things he writes about BP, is of his friend the lost 3 fingers & gained facial scars when making a 1 lb batch & about an excellent commercial BP that had charcoal made from peas.

Does that mean "snow peas" can be used to make "white powder"? :bigsmyl2:

[nanuk]

Does that mean "snow peas" can be used to make "white powder"? :bigsmyl2:

I don't think that it would make a "White" powder, but I would think it would be much less temperature sensative in the winter....

kinda like Hodgdon Extreme... same power no matter how dang cold it gets.

[cajun shooter]

The best Black Powders are made today and yesterday by using a certain wood to produce the charcoal. It also requires a certain process in it's making that is more than building a campfire and using the burnt pieces left over. Swiss Powder, Wano powders all use the blackthorn alder. It even matters as to what the size of the tree used is and what time of the year it is harvested. Now this is pertaining to the best powders made today. Goex powder uses a maple wood and the new Diamondback powder made in Brazil uses a native type of tree for it's charcoal. The quality of the charcoal is a very important step and is probably more important than the wood used. I read where a guy made a BP that went bang with Kingsford Barb-B-Que briquettes. I am not saying that it was even a cannon grade but it worked although he did say that ignition was difficult.

[felix]

The kind of wood indicates what kind of charcoal is used. By observation thus far, if the wood burns in a fireplace real good, like oak, hickory, mesquite, etc., then it should NOT be used to make a quality gunpowder. Maple is a very poor fireplace wood, at least it is around here, and so would be a candidate here. I am sure there are others, but which ones? Like CS said, the time of tree harvest would be paramount as well. Perhaps that is because of the required moisture content of the wood before frying, i.e., a production efficiency problem. ... felix

[Fly]

OK guy's here is my buddy's form.I would say he has done more testing than
anyone over the last ten years.Check his test data & also he has a sec on
the different ways of making it ect.
http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/charcoal_tests.html

Fly :violin:

[PatMarlin]

He have all of his fingers? ...:mrgreen:

[EOD3]

The kind of wood indicates what kind of charcoal is used. By observation thus far, if the wood burns in a fireplace real good, like oak, hickory, mesquite, etc., then it should NOT be used to make a quality gunpowder. Maple is a very poor fireplace wood, at least it is around here, and so would be a candidate here. I am sure there are others, but which ones? Like CS said, the time of tree harvest would be paramount as well. Perhaps that is because of the required moisture content of the wood before frying, i.e., a production efficiency problem. ... felix

More or less sap? More or less moisture?

[Charlie Sometimes]

More or less sap? More or less moisture?

That would mean more or less "tar" once the moisture is removed, which by the way, leaves during "cooking" in the retort. What is left would be what "makes" the quality of the charcoal and hence the BP.

Hardwoods are prefered for firewood (Oak, Hickory, Beech, etc.), softer deciduous woods (Poplar, Sycamore, etc.) are favored for fire starting and early season warmth. Some species are in between- Apple, Maple, Ironwood, etc. Evergreens are avoided. (All depends on where you live.) Creosote build up in a chimney can be a problem. Could that component be a factor?

[T-Bird]

Just finished my 1st batch. followed the procedure as posted, except I added 3gr homemade "dextrin" I made from cornstarch. I was going to add 2gr, but the last gram slipped- oh well. Took about 45 min start to finish. Simple as falling off a log. I will report tomorrow as to whether it went POOF or not. If it goes POOF, I'll take some to the range. I can't wait to light the residue lined coffee filters! Shoot Straight, T-Bird

[T-Bird]

shot my powder yesterday, basically "pooted"the ball out of my T/C hawken 50 cal. When dry, my powder is very fluffy. I may have used a larger mesh strainer than atom, I can't tell. The addition of the cornstarch "dextrin" may have messed it up-I don't know. I think I will try to mush it up some to make it finer grained, and try again. I used Big Green Egg brand lump charcoal ground to baby powder like consistancy together with Rattlesnake brand sulfur (90%) and the dextrin with a mortar/ pestal. This I added to the hot kno3 solution. It precipitated when it cooled, looked just like the picture. The only thing I added different was the dextrin but I used the sulfur that was only 90% because it was all I could find here. T-Bird

[zxcvbob]

I've had no problem with 90% sulfur. Your pharmacist might be able to get the 99% for you; it has several medicinal uses. What kind of KNO3 are you using? Stump remover is adequate, barely.

[T-Bird]

Stump remover-Green light brand. What do you think of the "dextrin". T-Bird

[T-Bird]

Here's how fluffy my powder is. A 45colt case of it weighs 18grains. A 45 colt case of ff weighs 40gr. T-Bird

[Charlie Sometimes]

I think I read and understood the dexetrin would slow the burn rate. I would not experiment with that untill I got a consistent burn. That IS fluffy, though. :smile: That wichita buggy whip link is fuill of good info! THANKS, Fly!

I was reading a couple of different articles the other day about making hominy and lye soap, and thought about this project. They showed various ways of producing the lye or lye solution required for processing corn or lard into hominy or soap.

Wood ash can be use to make a lye solution, which. I think, is basically Potasium Hydroxide, instead of Sodium Hydroxide. County Extension Agents will recommend that you put wood ash (only from certain types of wood- not the acidic kinds) on your garden to increase the K2O content, etc.

I haven't followed up much further than this yet in reference to past reading on BP processing in the old days, but it strikes me that this could be a very easy source for the KNO2. I know they rendered it from bat guano in caves, and maybe from a few other manure piles around the farm.

Which would make a better natural source, and would the wood ash produce the proper component for BP?

I've got some poplar trees to cut soon, and I am thinking of rendering the ash for making some hominy, a little soap, and BP if it will work for that. :smile:

[Fly]

T-Bird the info is right there to the link I posted.Buddy it is not hard at all.My powder kicks
Goex.I have been testing this stuff a long time.I have posted in the past on how I make mine.

But the link to Dannys site should tell you anything you need to know.You can send me a PM if you like & I will help you any way I can.

Fly

[atom73]

T-Bird,
I am sorry that your powder wasnt more energetic. I wasnt there when you made it so I really cant say what I think the reason is. I know there has been a lot of talk on this thread about charcoal, all I can say is that I make mine from willow, mine works great when made from willow. I havent tried any other woods because I really like how mine shoots. The sulfur that I get is PURE, I get it from scienceforyou.net (I also get my KNO3 there too) and have not tried any others types of sulfur. If I were to make a suggestion I would say that in order to repeat results in any experiment, stick to the reported experimental materials and methods exactly and then try adjusting components. I really wish you had different results, I sure enjoy shooting mine and think once some others here start making and shooting their own we will really be able to get some good recipes down. I still havent made mine with dextrin yet, next batch I will but I have to shoot up what I have now! Nice problem to have.
Lots of smoke...
Mike

[Fly]

Atom I hope you don't think I,m trying to Hi Jack your thread.The site I posted on the thread
has a place in making BP as you did also.It is up to anyone as to how they want to make it.
Both way's work if done right.

If there are some here that really want to make there own, it's there choice on how they get there.

I learned a long time ago working in research & develoment that many heads are better than
one.If you look at Dannys site the charcoal he test come from all over the world.He has spent
years putting his data together.

Fly

[atom73]

FLY, No problem. I am with you on the collaborative power of many experimenters. I just wish T- Bird had some mire success. Next batch I make I am going to try tweaking a little and in the future plan on trying the ball mill method based on what has been posted here. I think its a good thread and has generated a lot of good discussion as well as directed us to some other resources.
Mike

[zxcvbob]

My first powder was kind off between a fizzle and a "poof" when I tried it when I thought it was dry. I waited another month with the powder sitting in a metal pie pan on top of a heating duct (getting *really* dry) and tried it again and it went "BANG!". Also, when really dry the powder was lighter in color than it had been the first time.

But there's still a problem if the density was that low; 17 grains to fill a .45 Colt cartridge is too light.

[Fly]

Atom I faliled more than once starting out.I wish he would have had success also.You hate
to see someone just give up.When I first started I had no one to ask.I just ran around the
net reading & doing.

I finally did pretty good & about that time I got into the fireworks deal.I met many of those folks that helped me alot.Muzzle loaders are still my first love, but I enjoy the fireworks
also.

Fly

[Fly]

My first powder was kind off between a fizzle and a "poof" when I tried it when I thought it was dry. I waited another month with the powder sitting in a metal pie pan on top of a heating duct (getting *really* dry) and tried it again and it went "BANG!". Also, when really dry the powder was lighter in color than it had been the first time.

But there's still a problem if the density was that low; 17 grains to fill a .45 Colt cartridge is too light.

Well hear is the deal with cap & ball revolvers.Goex & the rest of the powder
over the counter is pressed wet into pucks, then set out to dry.When dry it is ground
into grains & sifed threw screens for the different powders 4ffffg, 3fffg, & so on.

Thats why it is more dense.You can do the same with a hydralic jack for pressing.
Go to Dannys site for he exsplains that, it's called cornded powder.He also tell's
Atoms method, & mine.

For my cap & ball revolvers I do press mind.But for Muzzle loaders I just weigh
what I made against Goex & what ever volume mind comes out to be at the same weight I just use that volume.SIMPLE!
Fly

[Charlie Sometimes]

I'm dying to try this, just haven't got my act together enough (it's spring, you know- other things keep jumping ahead of it). Dang it, anyway! Too many irons in the fire. :sad:

[Fly]

Charley "You West Virginia Boy's are known for not getting in a hurry".

( Wink) Fly

[T-Bird]

I ain't giving up! I make my own bullets, I make my own breads, I even cut my own grass! Seriously, I know many times theye are small things that make a big difference with all kinds of recipes. I did try this powder the next day after I made it. I 'll wait a couple of weeks , let it dry, and try again.It seemed dry tho. I don't know why it was so light, I bet my screen was to large. If it doesn't work, i'll try it w/o the dextrin next. T-Bird

[Fly]

T-Bird it not the dextrin, beleave me on that one.I make my own dextrin & use it in some
of my own black powder.I would think it's your charcoal more than anything.Lump charcoal
is made from hard woods.Oak,Hickery ect, & not good at all for fast BB.

The only thing I use hard wood charcoal for is in stars I make for fireworks effects, because
it burns slow & makes golden sparks.

If you pm me I will gladly send you some siver maple charcoal to try.Black willow works great
also as do some others.Atom & I just want to get you on the right path to the fun of making
your own BP.

Fly

[Boz330]

I saw on Danny's site Tree of Heaven listed and unfortunately I have some of this growing around the farm. It is an undesirable tree but it has pretty good numbers in his chart. Now I have a use for it other than supplying me with exercise to get rid of it. Not a lot of willow around here.

Bob

[Fly]

Boz I here alot of guys using that stuff.I don't know we even have it here in Okla.I'm always
looking for new woods & drive Danny crazy with what he thinks & so on.But don't even know
what that tree looks like.

Many of the guys in fireworks use white pine.Not yellow but white pine.Most lumber yards
have it.They rate it very high on the list for fast powder.But stay away from the yellow pine.
There again I use the yellow pine for spark effects, but not for fast powder.

Fly
Fly

[T-Bird]

how is poplar for charcoal? Kinda short on willow, but tulip poplar is plentyful on my property. T-Bird

[Fly]

White poplar shows to be very good.I don't know what tulip poplar is.T-Bird click on this
web site http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/blackpowder2.html

Fly

[Boz330]

Boz I here alot of guys using that stuff.I don't know we even have it here in Okla.I'm always
looking for new woods & drive Danny crazy with what he thinks & so on.But don't even know
what that tree looks like.

Many of the guys in fireworks use white pine.Not yellow but white pine.Most lumber yards
have it.They rate it very high on the list for fast powder.But stay away from the yellow pine.
There again I use the yellow pine for spark effects, but not for fast powder.

Fly
Fly

Trust me you don't want it, it is considered an invasive species here in KY. It grows very quickly and crowds out native trees and near as I can tell it is useless for anything except BP at this point. The problem that I see with it is when you skin the bark back it has a very obnoxious smell.
I picked up a couple bottles of Spectracide stump remover this morning at Walmart. Less than $5 a pound. The local butcher shop has KNO3 for meat curing at $5 for 4oz, that is more than I pay for Swiss.

Bob

[Fly]

Boz I just noticed your from central Kentucky.You guy's have a tree out there I would
love to have for make powder from.Paulowina trees maybe make the best charcoal for
fast powder there is.

I have a fireworks buddy that lives there & he sent me some.WOW that stuff will make
some of the hottest powder there is.Check that out also.
Fly

[Boz330]

Boz I just noticed your from central Kentucky.You guy's have a tree out there I would
love to have for make powder from.Paulowina trees maybe make the best charcoal for
fast powder there is.

I have a fireworks buddy that lives there & he sent me some.WOW that stuff will make
some of the hottest powder there is.Check that out also.
Fly

Never heard of it, is there another folksy name for it?

Bob

[T-Bird]

looks like spruce 2x4 studs are the way to go. cheap, easy. I have a contractor friend that can likely get me all those I can stand, cut ends. T-Bird

[Boz330]

Fly, I did a search on that tree and it sounds pretty interesting, but can't say as I've ever seen one, or didn't know what it was if I did. Sounds like you just put them in the ground wait 20 minutes and come back and start harvesting your branches for charcoal. Kidding aside the one that they photographed grew from a couple inches the first of April to 18ft by the end of summer. Tree of heaven grows fast but not that fast.

Bob

[Fly]

T-bird I ask Danny if he has ever tested tulip poplar.He said he has not but said my other
buddy was sending him some.Another guy I know said he did & was some what disapointed.

But lets see what Danny comes up with.The spruce should be good but not as good as black willow, but good enough to suit you.About like Goex but some what dirty.I swab between shots anyways.
Fly

[Charlie Sometimes]

Charley "You West Virginia Boy's are known for not getting in a hurry".

( Wink) Fly

Sometimes, that means wez jus' thankin' 'till it smarts a might. :bigsmyl2:

That smell is why it is called "Tree of Heaven"- only there would it smell so sweet. :grin:
Don't know if it is an offical invasive species, but it takes up space like sumac does.

I think Tulip Poplar will be the same as other poplar species- not much physical differences, IMHO. Will wait to see the results, though.

[bearcove]

Hmm. Just read the whole thing. Think I'll go down to the Rio Grande and cut some cottonwood. It is a poplar related to the willows.

[Boz330]

That smell is why it is called "Tree of Heaven"- only there would it smell so sweet. :grin:
Don't know if it is an offical invasive species, but it takes up space like sumac does.



:hijack:

I went to a woodland owners short course 2 years ago sponsored by the forestry dept and in this state it is considered invasive.
They cleared a power line right of way to my house in late 09 and there are 15ft trees of heaven where there were cedars and locust. Never had it on the farm before that, and it ain't easy or cheap to kill. It propagates from root runners and seeds. Garlon is about the only thing that kills it reliably and it is $300+ a pint IIRC.
But if it makes good BP I'm set for life!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bob

[Fly]

Hmm. Just read the whole thing. Think I'll go down to the Rio Grande and cut some cottonwood. It is a poplar related to the willows.

I ask Danny about cottonwood because I wanted to try it.He said it was pretty
good.He told me during the Civil war the south started using it instead of willow.

He gave me a website on the story.It seemed the south could not get enough
wiilow & thats why they used the cotton wood.

That powder plant was some where in Alabama.I will see if I can find that site.
It's a very long read, but I love reading about the civil war.So I guess cotton
wood must be pretty good if the south used it.

Fly

[Wayne Smith]

I haven't gone to the site listed yet, but has anyone tried kudzu?? That would be a good use for it if it works! Also sounds like the sweet gum might be a possiblity.

[bearcove]

seems like you need a soft punky wood, willow and cottonwood share that property.

[Fly]

seems like you need a soft punky wood, willow and cottonwood share that property.

Beleave it or not, one of the fastest woods is balsa.

Fly:Fire:

[bearcove]

Balsa is a soft punky wood.

[bearcove]

A punky wood has a styrofoam like texture when cut or hit. Like willow cottonwood and balsa.

[bearcove]

poplar and.soft maple are also.

spruce has a little more backbone.

[bearcove]

Basswood is another wood with similar texture. used for carving.

[bearcove]

I like wood and it seems you are seeking a class of wood for its porosity after charcoaled?

Yes?

[bearcove]

OK , next time I'll post when I'm not cooking

[bearcove]

FOOD That is!

[Bullshop]

This is going to sound stupid but I have to ask. Since moose pretty much eat only willow would moose pellets work?

[EOD3]

This is going to sound stupid but I have to ask. Since moose pretty much eat only willow would moose pellets work?

You're dead right about that, ya know... :dung_hits_fan: :mrgreen: :kidding:

[perotter]

I like wood and it seems you are seeking a class of wood for its porosity after charcoaled?

Yes?

Ideally that the pores are the same size & equal distant for each other. Also, the amount of & what the non carbon chemical residue is that is left in the charcoal.

[superscifi12]

Now you guys are gonna get me in trouble with the Mrs. Still building my F/L (GPR) , making a pot for casting (got the mold, dipper and thermo) and now building a ball mill and press to make BP and corn it.....

Motor is an old washer motor, tube is made outta 4" pvc, got the barrings and the roller rods. just need the belts and pullies (where is that old riding mower?) Trying to source the bottle jack second hand. Gonna have to get the C channel and the 1" plate from the scrap yard. All I should have to buy is the gauge and the all thread.

[nanuk]

For my cap & ball revolvers I do press mind.But for Muzzle loaders I just weigh
what I made against Goex & what ever volume mind comes out to be at the same weight I just use that volume.SIMPLE!
Fly

so, let me get this straight....

if you use 80 grains of Goex from your Measure, you would WEIGH that, and then use the equivilent WEIGHT of homemade powder..... I assume you would then calculate the VOLUME of said WEIGHT, and reset your measure to that for HOMEMADE BP?

[superscifi12]

so, let me get this straight....

if you use 80 grains of Goex from your Measure, you would WEIGH that, and then use the equivilent WEIGHT of homemade powder..... I assume you would then calculate the VOLUME of said WEIGHT, and reset your measure to that for HOMEMADE BP?

If I have been reading the pyro sites correctly if you don't corn your BP then the volume to weight ratio is off (more fluffy BP).

corning involves pressing your BP to 1.7g/cc (the videos i have watched on the subject it looks like it requires about 3k psi depending on your die size)