44 Special development update

[inthebeech]

Thank you all first off for the suggestions from my earlier posts regarding a lead free target load for my Flat Top Blackhawk.
We are a couple hundred rounds later, having tested a variety of combinations, all comming from the recommendations here and I believe that I have now come as close to my goal as I can with the existing bullet, lube and perhaps even powder. So I am now wondering where to go from here, if indeed mor progress could be made.

***Bullet - Accurate 43-220 (It is a collaberative design made for me). Please take a look at the shape (on-line catalog) to understand the design.

***Alloy - Moved from unknown scrap to carefully blended Lyman #2 alloy - noticably harder to the fingernail test.

***Lube- Tumbled with LLA AFTER SIZING.

***Sized - .432 with a honed out Lee push through die, which is a very tight fit in my cylinder throats.

***Seated - about 3/16 inch is fully within the throat so roughly half the bullet is out of the case. The half in the case is being sized down When seating, only about .0005 inch (and probably springing back most of this half a thou when it comes out.

*** Charge - unlike before I am now able to shoot my "gauge" load of 6.5 gr Unique with very little leading. Before using a harder alloy and matching the diameter to just over throats, my testing only allowed 4.9 grains with this same nominal amount of leading.

Conclusion and Request: It seems that I have found as much success as I might ever without changing powder, bullet, or lube (or lube style) as I am now comfortably in the midrange of power, probably in the 800 - 850 f/s zone, with very little leading which is concentratd within the first eighth inch of the lands and the forcing cone.
I would like to know if any of the "constants" now need to be addressed as I do recall comments from others who have obtained zero leading as well as having clean barrels with considerably heavier loads. I am not opposed to a traditional lube grooved design or a different design for other reasons. Another mold and a lubri-sizer are not really constraints here. I am enjoying the learning process.

Thanks and feel free to ask any questions.
Ed

PS- Recall that the amount of leading that I am describing is always after ten rounds for every test load. Then I scrub clean and move on.

[462]

Give Alliant 2400 a try...start low and work up.

[Bass Ackward]

It took you longer to write this than it would have to have tried a couple of other things.

If you are seating out that far out with the hard and light of a bullet, then you are too light on your powder charge.

I would be shooting at least 7 grains and the gun will probably tell you it wants MORE.

If you don't like to try, why don't you find somebody close to mail him a few of your bullets to lube for you. While you wait, tumble lube your bullets twice. Once before sizing and then again after.

[inthebeech]

462- Thanks for the tip. I picked up the 2400 today and we'll see what we see. I'll run some at both of my two "gauge" loads - one that pushes at 700 and the other to give about 850.

BA - Teh double tumble may work for some but I've tested every load that leaded with single and double tumbled bullets as well as before and after sizing (again single and double tumbled). It don't show a bit of difference. I'd hesitate to try a hefty load - it just don't make sense as the sole means by which to eliminate leading to fire something this hot. I'd like to think that there are other methods of obtaining a clean load. If you are thinking that pressure is not building up enough, then what do you think about trying a decent crimp to the loads?

[Lloyd Smale]

seating bullets out in a handgun isnt allways the best answer. Ive fooled around mostly with the 41 mag because ive got a couple guns that need bullets seated deep because of there short cylinders. For grins ive tried these swcs crimped over the driving band in other 41s that didnt need them seated that deap and believe it or not a couple of those loads were some of the most accurate loads ive tried in those guns.

[Bret4207]

Crimp, deeper seating, softer alloy, different lube, different powder, fire lapping/polishing, even a different seater die could all make a difference.

BTW, I know going hotter seems counter intuitive, but you're using a relatively very hard alloy now. If you fit is off a bit a little more pressure may make up for it, especially since you already know your seated section is getting swaged down. That's the problem I'd work on first.

[Bass Ackward]

BA - Teh double tumble may work for some but I've tested every load that leaded with single and double tumbled bullets as well as before and after sizing (again single and double tumbled). It don't show a bit of difference. I'd hesitate to try a hefty load - it just don't make sense as the sole means by which to eliminate leading to fire something this hot. I'd like to think that there are other methods of obtaining a clean load. If you are thinking that pressure is not building up enough, then what do you think about trying a decent crimp to the loads?


I didn't think that it would. Some claim that thinning or mixing but I find that if LLA doesn't work fairly well from jump street, then you are better off changing lubes. But I don't want to be the one that you spend money because of. You'll get to it at your own pace.

Nothing wrong with 6.5 grains if you seat it fairly deep. But what you don't realize is how VERY fast you drop pressure with seating depth. I don't have Quickload on this computer, but let's say your initial pressure was 13k. Seated out like you describe, probably drops pressure to about 5k or 6k. You still get velocity via the blow gun effect, but that hard of a slug probably needs more.

Crimp has the ability to make an impact ONLY if it is within it's capability to do so. (minor tweaking) In this case of what you describe and only 5 or 6 k pressure, It ain't going to help much.

Logic works ONLY if you change one variable at a time. Otherwise, it amounts to throwing darts mostly.

[Bass Ackward]

seating bullets out in a handgun isnt allways the best answer. Ive fooled around mostly with the 41 mag because ive got a couple guns that need bullets seated deep because of there short cylinders. For grins ive tried these swcs crimped over the driving band in other 41s that didnt need them seated that deap and believe it or not a couple of those loads were some of the most accurate loads ive tried in those guns.



Yep. Deep seating improves ignition in cases with excess capacity for the velocity attained. Not just for powder burn, but more importantly consistent powder burn.

The biggest advantage (my secret to cast success) of a straight case (in revolvers or single shots only because you don't have to worry about mechanical feeding) is that you have the ability to .... engineer case capacity to where it is needed regardless of how big it is. Even if the bullet is below the case. This provides flexibility so that you don't have a one powder or one bullet gun. :grin:

If you handicap yourself with OAL based upon where someone else thinks it should be, (crimp groove)you need to run a powder that produces a full case of powder at the pressure level needed to get it to burn properly. The case is best when it is filled with powder and bullet.

Coarse if you run full cases with bullets seated out at top pressure, then you probably have to believe in hard bullets too. And in the end, you become a believer in HEAVY for caliber bullets that still fill the case or improve ignition with stronger case neck tension or inertia. Then your accuracy comes once you achieve stabilization and it fails when your bullet can no longer hold the rifling. This effect is so pronounced that it will cause people to believe in bullet to twist rate theories and what not. :grin:

It all interacts to make you or a gun a one trick pony. :grin: