22 Savage High Power

[Char-Gar]

The current issue of Handloader magazine, contained an article by Terry Wieland on loading the 22 Savage High Power. The substance of the article would leave the reader with no use for the round, nor a desire to own a rifle in that caliber. This reflects the American attitude toward the round.

The round, has has enjoyed a much greater popularity in Europe (Germany, Austria, France etc.) where it is know as 5.6X52R. The combination of the long bullet with high sectional density, high velocity for the day and light recoil, made it very popular to carry into the mountains in search of Chamois and other small four footer critters. It continued to be used with some regularity up through the end of the 20th century.

Back in the very early 60's, I made the acquaintance of a German gunsmith who attended gunsmith school in Austria before the war. When WWII broke out, he joined the German Army and served with Rommel in Africa. Taken prisoner by the British and after the war went to Alaska where he hunted wolves for bounty. Somehow, he ended up down in deep South Texas trying to make a living as an old world Gunsmith in the land of rusty broken 22s.

During a hard spell, he sold me the rifle he had made as his final project in the school. He did all the metal work, barreling, clambering, engraving and bluing the same. He made the stock and carved the wood in the typical Teutonic style of the day. It was built on a Mauser 98 action and come with double set triggers and the whole she-bang. It was first class work, and chambered for the 5.6X52R (22 Savage High Power).

In those days Ralph Sisk of Iowa Park Texas was still making bullets by hand and offered some 70 grain .227 bullets. Cases were in short supply, but some were found and loading began. It proved to be an accurate rifle and round, and I took several coyote, javelin and one white tail deer with it.

In due time, he pulled up the stakes a moved elsewhere. Before he left, I took the rifle and gave it to him as a going away present. He would not have sold it, had he not been in dire straights.

So, I have a higher view of the round that Wieland. Even so, it is an odd ball and a problem child. Just the thought of it, brings back fond memories of visits with the old German who told me tales of the Africka Corp and wolfing in Alaska. Exciting stuff for a guy of 19. He as a first class gunsmith and a quality human being.

[starmac]

I would have to say that was a very good thing you did.

[justingrosche]

My father has a 22 Sav HP that was his Dads one and only deer rifle. It is a take down version Sav 1899 made in the early 20's.
Ive been assembling components to reload for it, and most of the list has been obtained. I have dies and brass and a 228367as well as a 228 sizer. I would like to get a 228035 in one of the heavier weights as well. I've kind of back burnered this project considering the rifle is 250 miles away from me and have not got an opportunity to get the bore diameter.
Justin

[Bret4207]

The Hi Power and 22 Zipper both appeal to me. I had a Hi Power on layaway, but things didn't work out. Didn't really want a TD 99 anyway, I prefer solid frames. To me they are more of a coyote and deer "if you have to" walking around rifle than a solid deer rifle. I hope to get one someday. The .228 diameter is an odd child, but we can work around it.

Good tale Charles. I knew a few old time gunny smythes but none with tales like yours.

[Char-Gar]

Bret.. One story from Wilhelm, I recall is about hunting wolves from a Piper Cub in Alaska. They flew out and shot wolves that were following the Caribou hears. The had skis on the Piper and would land and skin out the wolves. Here is the story to be read in a thick German accent..

" Dis Skimo and I hunted dem wolves. The Skimo flew the plane and I shot da wolves. Da sun is mostly overhead and dem wolves are pretty damn smart. De figure out, if they stay in the shadow of the plane I can't shoot dem. Well, I am smarter dan any damn wolf. I cut hole in bottom of plane!"

He had lots of good memories of the Africka Corp, but surrender and imprisonment was a bitter pill for him to swallow. If Hitler had not cut off their supplies and turned his back on them, those Krauts would still be fighting. He had no use for Hitler!

I once saw that guy thread a rifle barrel with files. He laid it out with string and a scribe and went to work. Not many folks could do that!

[gnoahhh]

That article is yet another example of someone taking preconceived notions, writing them down, and passing it off as research. Having spent a ton of time and money playing with this cartridge I can fairly say the author is full of hogwash. As for it's usefulness as a deer cartridge there are two camps of opinions. One holds that a high velocity heavy .22 bullet (ie: 60gr. Partition in a .223 for example) is plenty good for deer. The other camp says no, it isn't. Both sides are passionate in their beliefs and there isn't much point in arguing it. If you fall in the first group then the .22 HiPower is alright. I've seen it work, so you know which camp I fall into. I mean come on, we're talking deer here, not Cape Buffalo.

The HP offers a lot for a tinkerer to mess with. It provides some unique problems that once overcome make it no more difficult to load for than any other cartridge. Accuracy in my Savage takedowns is sterling, averaging under 2MOA with tang sights with enough much better groups that I would blush if I told you.

[Eutectic]

That article is yet another example of someone taking preconceived notions, writing them down, and passing it off as research.

.... I can fairly say the author is full of hogwash.

I totally agree..... Just one look at those cast boolit noses told me the quality of who we were dealing with! Just another nail in the coffin of "Handloader'!

I've had a fair amount of .219 Zipper experience. However I have thought for sometime about making up a heavy barreled single shot in .22HP. I would use a .224" barrel with 1 in 10" twist and use the longer bullets/boolits... As I form brass for either caliber anyway... the .22 High Power is actually easier...

Eutectic

[justingrosche]

I come from the deer camp as well. This was my daughters first deer about 5 years ago. She is a 1/4 Colville Native American Indian, so she is allowed to hunt with any center fire caliber.
This was 4 generation hunt. The rifle belong to my grandfather, and my father and I were both there to see her make the shot.

[gnoahhh]

Graet pic! Must have been a thrill to watch her do it!

[justingrosche]

I was a proud Papa that day, as was my dad, I bet my grand-dad was smiling down too.

[Harry O]

gnoahhh & Eutectic: I agree with the article in Handloader completely. I used to own one of the Savage 99's in .22 Savage High Power. Here is an article that I wrote long, long before the Handloader article was ever written. If anything, I had worse luck than that guy. And remember Ken Waters also had the same problems. Maybe the rifle is the problem, but it is a problem.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/22_hipower.htm

[Eutectic]

Maybe the rifle is the problem, but it is a problem.


Harry O,

As the 'finger of blame' seems to be waving..... I suggest we start with the forum!
Another category is needed. Something like: "Cartridges For Cast Boolits"......
Lacking this, Chargar posted his comments in 'Factory Rifles'. BUT..... Chargar was talking about the cartridge.... NOT A FACTORY RIFLE!

I suggest Harry O, that you start by re-reading the first post in this thread. Is the Savage Model 99 in the forefront?

I've been at this game for a L O N G time... I was trained by the best both in guns and ammunition, and tool & die work. Funny.... there is quite the rage it seems about 'Take-Down' lever actions nowadays. My father loved Winchester Model 86's, calling them the best of the lever actions. This was long ago; but truth still rings in the comment.
BUT MY FATHER WOULDN'T HAVE A TAKEDOWN MODEL 86 ON A TEN-FOOT POLE! I was young and learning and asked why? "A gun won't shoot worth a **** with a hinge in the middle! The rear sight on one side and the front sight on the other!" (tang peeps were the rear sight of choice on lever guns back then)

The 'attitude' towards lever action takedowns was not good then; alot of used takedowns were for sale....

S o o o o , an already 'springy' Savage Model 99 with a thin light weight barrel.. including the takedown feature.... Add a little time and wear.... It won't shoot very well regardless of caliber! And it certainly isn't the 'platform' to belittle the cartridge as a whole!

Look at your quote above Harry O.... you already know the answer!

As far as the 'Handloader' article... Some gun writers should just stick with a regurgitation on the .270 Winchester full of O' Connor nostalgia.
To photograph pictures of deformed bullets reeks of 'Joe Magee'! Is it that difficult to modify (or make) a seating screw or nose punch? If it is, then stay with the status quo and leave the difficult for experts. ... Forming brass correctly for the .22 Savage High Power is not an amateur job either. At least done correctly for an accurate gun in that chambering. Changing body taper to a steeper angle cannot be done starting with a .30-30 casing and just using the .22 HP die. You may get something that resembles a .22 High Power casing on the outside, but with case/necks walls with any number of problems!

I quote from the end of Chargar's post....
"brings back fond memories of visits with the old German who told me tales of the Africka Corp and wolfing in Alaska. Exciting stuff for a guy of 19. He as a first class gunsmith and a quality human being."

Some projects on the 'oldies' these days with what's now available for them, do indeed need a first class gunsmith to do correctly. 'Handloader' couldn't supply this regardless of the testing platform used.....

Eutectic

[gnoahhh]

Right on Eutectic. I collect Savage 1899's, and particularly like the 1899H Takedown. Maybe I have been lucky, but all of them are very accurate. At least as much so as my solid frame models. I don't buy into that as being an inherent source of inaccuracy. That said, also refer to my original post on this thread. I said that this gun/cartridge combo is for someone who likes to tinker with a gun to solve it's mysteries and make it work.

First off, throw a mic on a sampling of modern .25/35, .30/30, Norma .22HP, and S&B .22HP brass just ahead of the rim, and then measure some old vintage .22HP ammo from back in the day when the guns were being made. You will find a striking difference. The modern stuff is a lot smaller in diameter, the worst offenders being Norma and S&B 5.6x52R's. We theorize that is because of the translation from English to Metric dimensions coupled with Euro chamber dimensions being slightly smaller than Savages dimensions for the HiPower. Be that as it may, it works ok if you're not a handloader and just want to fire the gun now and then. A handloader won't want to fool with the stuff because case life is nil. (The fact that Norma and S&B ammo is loaded pretty bloody hot doesn't help matters either.) Those of us who have mastered the HP usually use .25/35 brass and be done with it. I typically get a 1/2 dozen loadings with hunting loads before I relegate them for use with low-vel cast loads for a bunch more firings. Current W-W .25/35 is within .005" of optimal in my guns. Not perfect, but not bad.

Projectile choice has been solved via a number of solutions, none of which include resorting to using way undersize .224 bullets. If you really want to know, PM me and I'll fill you in. It basically entails making the standard 70 grain bullet short enough to be properly stabilized by the 1-12" twist used by Savage 90-100 years ago. Why they went with that twist is anybody's guess. What's done is done, and is THE main source of problems with making this cartridge shoot. Solve the bullet length (not weight) problem, and the gun will shoot- takedown model or not. Again, it all comes down to identifying the issue and then solving it through experimentation- the realm of the gun tinkerer.

(And by the way, a takedown barrel can be shortened by one thread and re-chambered/fitted back to the gun to correct headspace with no more difficulty than any other rifle barrel. The rub is that the takedown latch hook on the barrel won't line up with the latch in the fore end and will have to be moved accordingly and is a royal PIA. Ask me how I know.)

P.S. Feel free to throw any Take downs that you don't want my way! (You don't HAVE to use the TD feature. I rarely ever dismantle mine. Just when I want to perform a thorough cleaning. After sighting in for hunting I leave it strictly alone so it doesn't shift it's zero.)

[Eutectic]

I apologize for 'dusting your tail feathers' a little groahhh....

A tight takedown, fit correctly without slop, can be made to shoot. See... you fit right into my criteria for the person who makes a 'bad-mouthed' caliber and/or gun shoot!. You are wise to takedown as minimal as possible; I liked that comment; it made me smile.

I champion the .22 Savage HP, as I know it can shoot... I think it should have 1 in 10" twist, but that's my opinion..

To make my point more clear I'll close with a short story about the .22HP's little brother; the .219 Zipper.
Around fifty years ago, my father wanted to re-barrel a nice set-triggered Winchester Hi Sidewall to a varmint caliber.. I had a .222 Remington Magnum (it had just came out) and it would shoot! Probably this was my father's objective... as he championed the old single shots. We discussed calibers.... He liked my .222 Mag but didn't want to fool around trying to convert the Model 85 to rimless. I recommended the .219 Donaldson Wasp. He made a face commenting he'd just as soon not form cases either...
"How about the Zipper?" He says.
"I don't know why not. It's got a bad reputation accuracy-wise, especially since the .222 Remington showed up. But it will shoot in a Hi-Wall."

A .219 Zipper it became.... A heavy 28" barrel made a 10lb plus gun. But it would shoot!! So well in fact, it rivaled my very accurate .222 Mag or any modern .22 to this day for that matter.

Yes, some cartridges may have some inherent accuracy engineered in their design I will admit. BUT the heavily tapered casing, along with its gentle shoulder angle can hang with the best of them. Just don't apply .22 PPC rules to it.

Something you have found about in your .22 High Power experience!

Eutectic

[Harry O]

Eutectic. Yes, I did see that this was a custom bolt action. That is why I said that I did not know if it was the gun or the cartridge. However, MY experience was bad. You should try reading what was written before looking for a fight.

[Bret4207]

I am a lover of the Savage 99. I think it's the single finest example of a lever action rifle ever made. But at that, I've yet to see a standard TD that was accurate as a solid frame. In fact, I have yet to personally handle a TD 99 that didn't have noticeable "wiggle". I have shot some TD's that had the barrels secured with Loc-tite that shot as well as solid frames, but those were the only 2 I've seen yet. It's nice to hear some folks are finding better examples than I have.

[gnoahhh]

Maybe I should clarify, Bret. Since I "collect" them I focus on pristine examples which haven't been ridden hard and put away wet. Old loosey-goosey gray rats don't hold an interest except maybe as parts guns. They get loose because people don't take care when taking them apart, and take them apart way too often.

If you ever stumble onto a fresh one with a nice bore that has a tight TD feature, snatch it up. It's accuracy might surprise you. (Actually now that I think about it, I think I've seen more tight TDs over the years than loose ones anyway.)

[Eutectic]

As this so called 'fight' started over opinion on a poor article in the current (#270) issue of "Handloader" on the .22 Savage High Power...... I thought I would mention to those of you with an entire "Handloader" collection to get the March-April 1982 issue (#96) in hand. The .22 Savage High Power is reviewed in a pretty favorable light by Layne Simpson. I like Simpson's articles.... he reminds me of our now gone neighbor, Bob Hagel.

A sharp eye will catch some things Simpson did of his own accord, unlike other authors that just follow... I was particularly interested in the case construction of the very early Savage brass. Something to read. Seems gnoahhh has already mentioned early .22HP brass differences with no comments from the peanut gallery. (This is also a problem in the .250-3000 Savage by the way)

The .30-30 family of brass doesn't like running above 40,000 psi even in a 'tight' gun like a Ruger #1 or the older Winchester Model 1885.
With a rear locker and their inherent 'springiness' the problem worsens.. I have worked recently with a Winchester Model 64 in .25-35. (I use this as an example to not offend) The .25-35 is the daddy of the .22HP and shares most of the same problems in the springy Model 64. The solutions are the same.

I'll give you one hint... Fired casings need to be precision measured to the thousandth of an inch (THIS INCLUDES SHOULDER LOCATION) and then the sizing die set with precision accordingly. Only Waters, alludes somewhat in this direction.

It seems we have even talked about VW superchargers in this thread! I'll end on a similar note on transmissions!

Most of our current crop of reloaders have been trained to drive an automatic transmission..... A few of the older reloaders may even have experience in driving with a manual transmission. The frustration (and blame) it seems, occurs when an old "Model T" like the .22 Savage High Power is tried to be driven...

The very first thing you reloaders need to know to even get moving is THAT YOU HAVE TO SHIFT WITH YOUR FEET!!!

Current articles on the .22 Savage High Power glaringly reflect this lack of knowledge as the author wrestles with the throttle and spark advance levers on the steering column trying to shift gears!!!!!

Eutectic

[gnoahhh]

Ha ha! I actually learned to drive on a Model T. (My grandfather was a Ford mechanic from 1920 to 1957, and kept T's, A's, and early V-8's around until his death in 1973.) Good analogy.

A lot of guys don't realize that Charles Newton wildcatted the .25/35 into the HiPower starting as soon as the .25/35 was introduced in the late 1890's. He convinced Savage to buy into it in 1909, and as such was the first commercially offered high velocity jacketed bullet .22 centerfire. Many experimenters of that era were building .22 CFs based on a bunch of different cases, but this one was the first factory rifle. It is truly a shame that no other U.S. factory rifles were ever chambered for it (that I know of).

[justingrosche]

It is truly a shame that no other U.S. factory rifles were ever chambered for it (that I know of). Quote

I had not thought about a 22 sav chambered n in anything other than a 99, other than what Chargar had described in a Mauser.
I wonder what the Europeans are shooting, Mauser? Factory?

[dromia]

Thank you for your fine posts gentlemen and a timely thread for me.

I've just bought a Savage 1899 Take Down in .22 Savage Hi Power. I've always fancied a Savage underlever but you don't see them all that often over here in the UK so when this came along at an auction I jumped at it.

I like .22 centrefires as well as cartidges and rifles that need work to make them shoot, so the Hi Power seemed to fit the bill for me.

I've got the rifle and dies, bought a RCBS .228" mould that will be with me soon and Buckshot is crafting me some .228" and .229" sizing dies. I can get some Norma cases but they are $60 for 20. S&B factory ammunition is available down the line but I'm not south for a couple of months so I might just bite the boolit and spring for the Norma's.

The lock up seems tight on the rifle I have but we won't rightly know 'till I start shooting.

Interested in the observations on boolit length and the reference to case measurements and size die setting. Would you care to alluded a tad deeper on those points please Eutectic.

I'm looking forward to working with this cartridge and rifle and its good to know I'm not "alone". :D

[Eutectic]

Interested in the observations on boolit length and the reference to case measurements and size die setting. Would you care to alluded a tad deeper on those points please Eutectic.

I'm looking forward to working with this cartridge and rifle and its good to know I'm not "alone". :D

Hi dromia,

First, if you can, get copies of "Handloader" magazines March-April 1982 #96 and November-December 1983 #106. These will be good reference while you own a .22 Savage High Power.

I believe the 1 in 12" twist is a little borderline for the longest 70gr bullets. You will see Simpson in Handloader #96 had fine results with the 70gr Hornady spire point while Waters in #106 did not. As far as cast boolits, experiment and see. If your mold is a pointed boolit, I might even make up something to 'bob' the point if they gave me any yaw tendencies..

It seems even more that I believed before this current thread that Savage chambered these guns rather large. Maybe better put, large for the brass available today. I speak mainly over the web area on the case. This is the critical spot. .30-30 brass runs .002"-.003" larger over the pressure ring or web area of the case if you feel inclined to form your cases.
It is common instruction to full length size all brass for lever action guns. I wouldn't do this with the .22 High Power! Neck sizing only could get you in trouble as well. A slightly tight casing may suffice in a bolt gun but stick in a lever gun.
So I've found a partial and accurate full length size works the best especially with the rapid body taper that the .22 HP has along with large dimensions over the web as mentioned.

You will need a few fired cases from your gun first. Make sure they are fired with ZERO, or NO CLEARANCE. Seating the bullet out to impinge in the throat usually works for this.
The two critical measurements are expansion over the pressure ring (web) and head to shoulder length at about mid-shoulder.
Say the web measurement is .418". I would not want my finally sizing to take that below .417"..... More on this in a moment. Here's what I've found the easiest to get the shoulder sized perfect and still have a reload that function's trouble-free in a lever action.

For the .22 Hi-Power I use a .30 Carbine brass. Make sure the mouth is round, without burrs, and it is de-primed. I telescope the carbine brass over the neck of the .22 HP fired brass. The .30 Carbine brass will hit the shoulder about mid-length on the .22 HP's case. Then mic this total length.... This may sound a lot worse than it is... So take a look at the described setup in a 2" to 3" micrometer...

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/shoulder_mic.jpg

The measurement is done on your fired and deprimed only casing. The overall length in our illustration is 2.774". When you get your dimension, write it down!
Then size your casing with the die up enough not to touch the shoulder. Turn in a little at a time until you JUST GET A MEASUREMENT CHANGE! A half thousandth is great! When you are getting close it may actually increase a thousandth or two.Then see how the brass closes and extracts in your gun. Usually .001" clearance will give you trouble free functioning. Mic the web area now...(Shown in picture as well) If it sizes more that .001" smaller on the fired case then I would polish the die until it only sized .001"
These steps are the best I've found to prevent incipient head separations. Your lower pressure cast boolit loads will really help as higher pressures along with the large chamber are the problem with max loads. This probably all sounds more difficult than it is and is quite simple AND EXACT actually..

Hope this helps, Eutectic

[Bret4207]

Maybe I should clarify, Bret. Since I "collect" them I focus on pristine examples which haven't been ridden hard and put away wet. Old loosey-goosey gray rats don't hold an interest except maybe as parts guns. They get loose because people don't take care when taking them apart, and take them apart way too often.

If you ever stumble onto a fresh one with a nice bore that has a tight TD feature, snatch it up. It's accuracy might surprise you. (Actually now that I think about it, I think I've seen more tight TDs over the years than loose ones anyway.)

You might have something there since pristine examples are as rare as an honest politician in my neck of the woods.

[Bret4207]

As this so called 'fight' started over opinion on a poor article in the current (#270) issue of "Handloader" on the .22 Savage High Power...... I thought I would mention to those of you with an entire "Handloader" collection to get the March-April 1982 issue (#96) in hand. The .22 Savage High Power is reviewed in a pretty favorable light by Layne Simpson. I like Simpson's articles.... he reminds me of our now gone neighbor, Bob Hagel.



Eutectic

I'm saddened to hear Bob has passed. I always enjoyed his writing and devoured "Game Loads and Practical Ballistics for Hunters". I took more away from that than almost any other book I can recall, except "Pet Loads". I know he and Elmer had a falling out, but he still was one of my favorites.

When did he pass?

[gnoahhh]

Dromia,

Is Norma brass the only .22 HP brass available to you? It has the smallest head diameter of them all. If you can acquire Winchester .25/35 brass you'll be ahead of the game. If Norma is it, then you'll have to make-do.

The key to accuracy, as I said before, is matching the bullet length to the rate of twist. Not knowing what is available to you I will say that a maximum length for a 70 gr. jacketed bullet is .750". That rules out the Hornady spire point which is .850- and explains why it doesn't shoot worth a tinkers dam in most Savage HiPowers. I make a file trim die to shorten them to .750 (and only losing 2 grains of weight in the process) at which point they'll shoot. Group sizes were cut in half by the reports from the guys I made the dies for, and by my own observation. If you ordered the 60 gr. RCBS mould you'll be fine. (6gr. Unique is my favorite with that bullet and the Lyman 228367. Typically 3/4" groups at 50 yds., tang sights.)

[Eutectic]

I'm saddened to hear Bob has passed. I always enjoyed his writing and devoured "Game Loads and Practical Ballistics for Hunters". I took more away from that than almost any other book I can recall, except "Pet Loads". I know he and Elmer had a falling out, but he still was one of my favorites.

When did he pass?

Hi Bret,

I thought I still had a copy from the newspaper.... It's been five years!!!! I couldn't believe it!
I've attached the paper's obituary for any interested....

Eutectic

http://www.hunt101.com/data/556/28043hagel.JPG

[dromia]

Appreciate you for the advice gentlemen.

Thanks for the pointer to Layne Simpson article, I've printed it off. I'd already come across the Ken Waters article in his Pet Loads.

Regarding 25-35 cases do they require a forming die? I can get Winchester at a 1/3 rd of the price of the Norma.

[sav300]

Hi Dromia,
I lube the necks of the 25-35 and run them thru the 22hp die,slowly.
I have two rifles in hp.One is a 1924 savage 99 and the other is a brno combo in 22hp and 12gauge.
Both use cast.With the brno combo,several boxes of Norma ammo came along.I reserve these for hunting.

[dromia]

Thats a relief Sav300, just looked at the RCBS die and it is over £100. :shock:

[dromia]

BTW any sites where I can date my Savage from its serial number?

Had a look on the netty but haven't had much success so far.

[justingrosche]

http://www.savage99.com/savage99_dates.htm
try this.
Justin

[dromia]

Thanks.

Its 1920 manufacture.

[Bret4207]

Hi Bret,

I thought I still had a copy from the newspaper.... It's been five years!!!! I couldn't believe it!
I've attached the paper's obituary for any interested....

Eutectic



Thanks very much. It's kind of sad the way life takes away "friends" you've never even met, isn't it?

[gnoahhh]

There are errors contained in that Savage website. For the best info regarding the 1899 or 99, go over to the Savage collectors forum on the 24 Hour Campfire. There are guys there with data bases that would make your head spin. PM me if you wish to pin down model/date of manufacture, etc.

[starmac]

They may be gone, but a couple of days ago there was a 22 high power die set on flea bay. It is kinda rare to see them their.

[Bullshop]

If you folks want a chuckle try to find some of the original advertising for the cartridge when it was first available.
It was touted as the proverbial lightning bolt from Heaven and suitable for large dangerous game as lion and tiger.
It was used for such by a few hearty souls, SHORT TERM!

[Eutectic]

If you can acquire Winchester .25/35 brass you'll be ahead of the game.

gnoahhh,

A question.... Sort of on subject. Do you have a Savage 99 in .25-35?

I bet I have 'watched' for one for at least 40 years; I haven't even seen one! Is it the least chambered (most rare) caliber in Savage 99's?

Thanks, Eutectic

[gnoahhh]

I have one in .25/35 AI. .32/40 or .38/55 are the rarest ones.

[onceabull]

I am thinking 7/08 and 22/250 are the rarest,but acknowledge that it is all hearsay... Onceabull...(Have orig.1899 25/35, 26" Octagon,but it's a gray rat)

[IridiumRed]

The current issue of Handloader magazine, contained an article by Terry Wieland on loading the 22 Savage High Power. The substance of the article would leave the reader with no use for the round, nor a desire to own a rifle in that caliber. This reflects the American attitude toward the round.

The round, has has enjoyed a much greater popularity in Europe (Germany, Austria, France etc.) where it is know as 5.6X52R. The combination of the long bullet with high sectional density, high velocity for the day and light recoil, made it very popular to carry into the mountains in search of Chamois and other small four footer critters. It continued to be used with some regularity up through the end of the 20th century.

Back in the very early 60's, I made the acquaintance of a German gunsmith who attended gunsmith school in Austria before the war. When WWII broke out, he joined the German Army and served with Rommel in Africa. Taken prisoner by the British and after the war went to Alaska where he hunted wolves for bounty. Somehow, he ended up down in deep South Texas trying to make a living as an old world Gunsmith in the land of rusty broken 22s.

During a hard spell, he sold me the rifle he had made as his final project in the school. He did all the metal work, barreling, clambering, engraving and bluing the same. He made the stock and carved the wood in the typical Teutonic style of the day. It was built on a Mauser 98 action and come with double set triggers and the whole she-bang. It was first class work, and chambered for the 5.6X52R (22 Savage High Power).

In those days Ralph Sisk of Iowa Park Texas was still making bullets by hand and offered some 70 grain .227 bullets. Cases were in short supply, but some were found and loading began. It proved to be an accurate rifle and round, and I took several coyote, javelin and one white tail deer with it.

In due time, he pulled up the stakes a moved elsewhere. Before he left, I took the rifle and gave it to him as a going away present. He would not have sold it, had he not been in dire straights.

So, I have a higher view of the round that Wieland. Even so, it is an odd ball and a problem child. Just the thought of it, brings back fond memories of visits with the old German who told me tales of the Africka Corp and wolfing in Alaska. Exciting stuff for a guy of 19. He as a first class gunsmith and a quality human being.

btw, Chargar, thats really cool what you did, giving the old guy back his gun. Thats definitely worth some good Karma points :)

[NuJudge]

A gun store near me had a 99 take-down brought in from an estate, with RCBS dies for loading and for making cases from .30-.30, and a Lyman mold, and several hundred bullets, and several hundred cases. It's an interesting rifle.

[MtGun44]

No offense to your Afrika Corps friend, but I do think that the USAAF and USN had a hand in
"Hitler cutting off their supplies". They even tried the giant gliders to resupply once their
supply lines on the suface of the Med were cut, and they were shot down in quantity.

Bill

[gnoahhh]

Not to mention the RAF and the Royal Navy. But, essentially the High Command was gearing up for Operation Barbarossa (invasion of U.S.S.R.) and since the writing was on the wall as far as the Afika Korps was concerned...

[kir_kenix]

I just read this article early this morning. I was not very impressed. There is no real research here, there is no real load data. His sized .228 boolits look ROUGH...i mean it looks like he is having all sorts of trouble sizing them (see pg 71). It looks like several of the noses on the 228367 are visably bent (ran into the sizing die incorrectly or perhaps using the wrong top punch).

I have experimented with 2 different 22 HP's in the past, and while they were not benchrest rifles, they were certainly better shooting then this Savage. I have also ran into differences in 22 hp cases as well.

Seems that the author read Waters work, and went into the project with that mindset. Why did they even bother to publish this article, since it doesn't inform us of, well...anything. They should have just republished Waters work from 20 years ago.

[Char-Gar]

Boys.. I am not a WWII historian or have much interest in being so. Bill Helms, didn't have the advantage of history, books, movies, History Channel and all of that. He was just a soldier that could only see as far as the horizon and knew what he was told about the big picture. He had his opinions and perspectives which were peculiar to his life and experience. I do know his bitterness did not run toward the Allies, but toward Der Fuhrer.

Most likely he has crossed over to the other side by now. I would not want to call him up and give him a history lesson, even if I could. I just tried to listen and learn and would do so still, if given the opportunity.

[johnly]

I just joined the 22HP club today. A came across a 1912 1899H with a peep sight for $350. I reached for my wallet as fast as I could and said deal. It's far from pristine, the bore is just OK and the stock has been cracked and repaired but I was just looking for a shooter.

John

[z1r]

I am a lover of the Savage 99. I think it's the single finest example of a lever action rifle ever made. But at that, I've yet to see a standard TD that was accurate as a solid frame. In fact, I have yet to personally handle a TD 99 that didn't have noticeable "wiggle". I have shot some TD's that had the barrels secured with Loc-tite that shot as well as solid frames, but those were the only 2 I've seen yet. It's nice to hear some folks are finding better examples than I have.


I have a very early TD in 22 HP that shoots lights out. It was fitted with an old stith mount and weaver 440 scope. It has no trouble shooting S&B factory loads into 3/4" groups.

[rintinglen]

I had a solid frame 1921 model 99 for a while in 1975 or 1976. I only shot it with factory ammo and was pretty disappointed in it. It was not capable of placing five shots into less than 3 1/2 inches, despite it having a Weaver k-6 on it. It went back into the pool at the next Great Western Gun Show. I still like Savages though, my current 250 -3000 is a favorite, though it won't shoot any bullet longer than the Remington 100 Grain Spitzer with accuracy, it is just fine with 87 grain Speer or Hornady bullets and WW-748. With a better trigger and perhaps a better scope, it might make MOA, or darn close to it.