Lubrisizer vs Accuracy

[bmblong]

I bought an RCBS lubrisizer, Thompson Blue Angel bullet lube, and a Lee 6 cavity RNFP 158gr .357 mold. I excitedly cast, lubed and loaded 50 cartridges. The load was 6.5 gr of HS-6 with Federal small pistol magnum primers. I took them to the 100yd range and they shot what I would guess to be a 4 FOOT group.:mad:
I then shot some of my 158gr Lee tumble lube cartridges over 6.0gr HS-6 with small pistol magnum primers and was shooting clays off the berm consistantly. I went home and lubed and loaded 50 more cartridges and only put 6.0gr HS-6 in them. I also assembled 20 with 14.0gr Lil' Gun. I went to the 100yd range and shot again. I shot 10 rounds and I only found 2 holes in the whole target. I then shot all 20 with the 14gr Lil' Gun and they were on target. The only problem with that is that they leaded the barrel. Minor but I never got ANY leading with the Lee tumble lubed over 6.0gr HS-6. (By the way there wasn't any leading with either the 6.0 or 6.5gr of HS-6.) I have alot of questions. 1- Should I increase my load of HS-6? 2-Should I try to decrease my load of Lil' Gun? (Already below minimum) 3-Any other suggestions?
Just so you know I was shooting a Winchester 94 angle eject. The bullets were sized to .358. I hope I got everything.

[Bullshop]

try sizing to .360"
BIC/BS

[44man]

I never used any Blue Angel lube so I am not sure, but it could be too hard. Bullshop suggests sizing .360 but the boolit might not be large enough to start with. I would use an oversize size die anyway so you can lube without sizing the boolit. In other words, if the boolit casts at .358, use a .359 die. If you are lucky and the boolit casts at .359, then yes, a .360 die would be best. Try a soft lube like Felix and see what happens.
The HS-6 will bump up the boolit faster while Lil gun is slower so it is an indication the boolit is too small when it leads the bore with the slower powder.
Cast much hotter to see if the diameter will increase a tiny amount.
Compare the tumble lubed boolit diameter with the new boolit, I will bet the tumble lubed one is larger.

[bmblong]

Right now I am sizing to .358. My only problem sizing bigger is I am using a Lee factory crimp die. (which makes sure the case will chamber as well as crimp if you are not aware of how the Lee crimp die works) Even sizing to .358 it takes a little force to get through the die. The tumble lube bullet went through the same die. Maybe I'll run each one through and see what they measure. On a side note I never did size the Lee tumble lube bullets at all. I don't know why if the bullet is undersize it would shoot with one powder (Lil' Gun) and not another (HS-6). Another question it brings to mind, I used to shoot this rifle with Ranier 158gr plated FP bullets and would get 2 inch groups at 100yds. I think they are .357? Is there that much of a difference between cast and jacketed/plated bullets? I will also measure an as cast bullet and see what it measures. Thanks.

[bmblong]

I measured both a pulled Lee tumble lube bullet and also a Lee lubrisizer bullet and they both measured out at .359. I thought that was odd because I size to
.358 maybe I'll measure one straight out of the sizing die. Maybe they "spring back" like I read somewhere. I did measure two unsized bullets and they measured .361 "as cast". Thanks again.

[DOUBLEJK]

If yer crimp size die is one a them with a carbide ring inside the bottom of the die....it won't matter what yer lubrisizer sizes too as that does em agin'....if yer boolits er a bit big it'll squeeze em right down...:twisted:
You might try usin' a regular seating and crimping die without that durn carbide ring....
I had one for my 45acp and when usin' it my loads scatter like a covey a quail....went back to a normal die n accuraccy came right back....
ymmv....:drinks:

[Bass Ackward]

You are getting good information. My bet is dies are causing some problems too.

You also said that with HS-6 that you were using a magnum primer in the ones that shot bad and standard primers in the HS-6 load that shot poorly. Reverse the test! Load five and five. See what happens and what that tells you.

Primer makes a big difference in a small case and more so with faster powders and or stick / flake powders.

Lead is much more sensitive than copper which is why copper won out in the market place. Less to think about.

When you run faster / shotgun powders, you can easily reach points with each one where magnum primers becomes too much ignition and starts driving pressure straight up. When this happens, you are changing the burn rate characteristics of the powder making it more sensitive to minor variations. I go the exact opposite of what you would expect and I use magnum primers for mild pressures with slower powders and then go to standards as the pressure gets up to where the powder was designed to burn well on it's own.

Professor Gun might mislead you from time to time, but he won't lie if you listen to what is being said.

[44man]

Bruce, how lucky can you get? .361! You can do anything with those. First, seat an unsized boolit and without crimping, just remove the flare, see if it will chamber easy. If it is tight, beg, borrow or steal a .360 die and try again. Once it chambers easy then get a die to fit. Lee will make any size you want and for as cheap as they are, you can lap one of the standard sizes out. Do not limit yourself to the .358 die because you will learn nothing. My guess is the unsized boolit will fit.
Listen to Bass and Doublejk! They know what they say. I only use Hornady dies for top accuracy in revolvers and rifles with pistol calibers. I use the Redding profile crimp die on most and the Hornady roll crimp on others. You don't want to size as you crimp and you don't want to crimp too hard to ruin brass either. Case tension is more important.
And as Bass says, watch those primers. I never use mag primers in the .44 and .45 with ANY powder and the .357 will work the same way most of the time. Some loads might need a mag primer but it is for you to test. A lot of guys read the manuals where it says use mag primers and that's all the gun ever sees. Changing primers is like changing powder or boolits where every kind needs to be shot to find the best results with each and every other change you make. You don't want to change loads and powders and keep using the same primer all the time.
I am sure you can get 2" or LESS at 100 yd's with your boolits. That is the fun of cast, you can work with them and you are not limited like you are with jacketed.
Don't limit yourself to one lube either because the wrong one will ruin accuracy so fast you will quit casting. These have to be all tested too.
Never load 50 at a time either, work with small batches until you get what you want, nothing worse then having 45 loaded rounds left that won't shoot. Keep track of how many times a case is shot to keep brass uniform in hardness. Never test with a few cases shot 20 times mixed with brass only shot once or twice. Keep brass trimmed to even lengths.

[bmblong]

I keep all my brass in it's own lot. I don't count how many times it has been reloaded, I just keep it all together. I usually do only 20 "test rounds" but I had no reason to believe that my new cast bullets would'nt shoot. I can load up 20 rounds and not run them through the crimp die and see how it goes. I have an old lyman crimp die that was given to me a while back that I might try. The only thing left that is really confusing me is that both the Lee TL and the lubrisized bullets both measure the same diameter after they've been through that crimp die. Thanks, and look for this thread to pop up to the top after I get to try some of this stuff.

[Bass Ackward]

Bruce,

Good. We like to hear results. That way all the arm chair guys that are sitting back their reading this thread, making their own guesses without posting, get to follow the process. Makes guys think.

From my experience, Lyman dies usually allow the largest cast bullet diameters to be seated without modifying the die. Now you can take that positively if you have larger cast bullets. Or negatively if you have bore diameter or jacketed bullets because that means there is a lot of slop for seating the bullet if the nose punch doesn't fit perfectly which can affect concentricity of the loaded round. But when you crimp, that generally helps center.

[bmblong]

OK. Here is what I've done so far. I thought that maybe the bullet shape might be messing things up so I took my Lee TL158gr SWC and instead of tumble lubing I ran them through the lubrisizer. They were sized to .358 and sent downrange. They shot terrible. (I only got to shoot them on the 50yd range 'cause the 100 was closed for a match.) The 10 shot group was about 8 inches or so, looked like buckshot. I start thinking that you guys are onto something with needing to size the bullets to .360. I bought a Lyman .360 sizing die and sized them to .360. I took them and the unsized TL158gr SWC's and shot them and they are shooting great. I am at 3 inch 10 shot groups @ 50yds. I will try them again on the 100yd range this weekend and let you know how that goes.[smilie=w:

[Bass Ackward]

OK. Here is what I've done so far. I thought that maybe the bullet shape might be messing things up so I took my Lee TL158gr SWC and instead of tumble lubing I ran them through the lubrisizer. They were sized to .358 and sent downrange. They shot terrible. (I only got to shoot them on the 50yd range 'cause the 100 was closed for a match.) The 10 shot group was about 8 inches or so, looked like buckshot. I start thinking that you guys are onto something with needing to size the bullets to .360. I bought a Lyman .360 sizing die and sized them to .360. I took them and the unsized TL158gr SWC's and shot them and they are shooting great. I am at 3 inch 10 shot groups @ 50yds. I will try them again on the 100yd range this weekend and let you know how that goes.[smilie=w:


Bruce,

Glad you came back. I was wondering how you made out. Sounds like you are on your way to becoming adicted. Congratulations.

[bmblong]

I got to the 100 yd range. I tried sized to .360 and run throught the Lee factory crimp die. I got 8 inch 10 shot groups @ 100yds. I tried sized to .360 and not run through the crimp die with the same result. To be fair, I shot a group with the LLA tumble lubed unsized bullets that got run through that factory crimp die and got the same result. I had only shot those on the 50yd range and thought they were fine. I put a scope on the rifle thinking it might be me and the peep sight. That didn't help at all. All those are loaded over 6.0gr HS6 and magnum primers. The next thing I think I'm going to try is a load of H110 or Lil gun and see what's up. Not a speck of lead though.

[Bass Ackward]

Bruce,

Just follow a logical reloading pattern so that you cover the bases. Eventually you are going to hit a combination you will like. The 3" at 50 and 8" at 100 sounds like you are losing stability. Maybe slower powder will be just the ticket. But just because it is slower, doesn't mean you have to go to max right off either.

Trust me, someone is watching your results with anticipation.

[TCLouis]

Welcome to the reality of load development.
Just because one boolit does something with a load of powder does NOT mean a boolet of comparable weight will do anything near the same.

A group I hang with sometimes with three letters after their name have the following statment:
When it comes to high temperature and high pressure or high temperature or high pressure NEVER be caught saying "it ought to behave in some certin way".
TEST it and whatever the results are, they are. Speculation is just that, and not necessarily anywhere near reality.