Tried cap and ball revolver cartridge conversion cylinders?

[wellfedirishman]

Have any of you guys tried cartridge conversion cylinders for cap and ball revolvers?

I was thinking that a 38 special cylinder would be fun in an 1851 Navy, especially with light Trailboss cowboy loads.

The cylinders themselves sell for about $200-$250, I am just wondering if it is worth the price.

Also - would you recommend cylinder conversions for the 1858 Navy (45LC) or for the 1851 Colt (38 spl) or 1860 Colt (45LC).

Thanks.

[Otony]

I am supposed to pick up a Uberti 1858 cartridge conversion today....chambered in .38 Special.

I am not sure if this will meet your criteria, as Uberti purpose built it as a .38, but it is definitely built on their 1858 cap & ball frame, so I think it qualifies.

If you do buy a conversion cylinder for an 1851 Navy, be aware that the bore will be grossly oversized for .38 slugs. At a minimum you would need to use hollow base boolits cast from relatively soft lead. Many folks converting Navies end up relining the barrels to better fit bore to boolit. Another thought might be to simply buy one of the Uberti Navy resolvers already so converted, as those have the proper bore size for .38 Special rounds.

None of this is insurmountable, but were I to buy a cap & ball revolver with the express intent to convert it, I would likely opt for something that would accept .45 Colt, as there are less hoops to jump through for the end result.

One other thing. LIGHT loads are the order of the day if working with any of the open top framed Colt replicas (I have a Uberti 1872 Colt factory chambered to .44 Russian, BTW). Even the stronger frames of the 1858 Remingtons require loads on the light side. In my .44 Russian I shoot Holy Black only. My .38 Special will be used exclusively with wadcutter level loads, or lightly charged round nose boolits. YMMV, hope that helps a bit.

[Otony]

One other comment very quickly. I realize that the conversion cylinders sold are chambered to .38 Special for the reason of commonly available factory rounds, but I have long thought that these same cylinders would be better if cut to accept the old .38 S&W round.

Shorter brass that will accept either small full loads of Holy Black, or lighter loads of that new-fangled smokeless with less problems than powder puff loads in Special brass. Plus the somewhat larger boolit size would make it a bit simpler to match hollow based slugs to the oversize bore of the Navy Colts.

[wellfedirishman]

Otony, thanks, that is very helpful info. Sound like 45LC is the way to go then.

I was considering the 1858 Remmy in 45LC as it looks like a stronger frame for use with smokeless cast loads.

[John Taylor]

I get barrels in quite often to line to .357 so the 38 special will shoot. Some of the 45s are only five shooters. The rim of the cartridge is to big so the ones for 6 shot had to have the chambers at a slight angle. Not sure if the Remington was done the same way. Here's someone that would know http://www.ravensroostcustom.com/27001/715.html

[docone31]

Mine takes .45 Schofield.
I like it. Easy to fire, accurate, good smell.
People at the range stop and look.
My wife likes it also.

[wellfedirishman]

OK, I found some good info here:
http://www.kirstkonverter.com/default.asp

Cited from Kirst's website:
"The .44 caliber percussion revolver barrel is actually .45 caliber as its bore dimensions are the same as the present day .45 caliber at a nominal .451 inch diameter. Therefore the barrel of your .44 caliber percussion revolver will handily accept lead bullets in the 45 Colt and 45 ACP cartridges.

The .36 caliber percussion revolver barrel has a bore diameter of .375 inches. Today’s .38 caliber bullets are .357-inch diameter bullets. To attain best accuracy with a .38 caliber cartridge, in your reproduction Navy revolver, you must shoot a soft lead, .38 caliber, hollow base bullet, or .38 caliber, heeled bullet. The soft lead hollow base bullet will “bump up” to the .375-inch bore diameter and shoot very accurately."

[Ilwil]

Otony, I think you are right. I have never understood an inherently poor conversion from .36 to .38 special. .38 S&W would not only be safer and more accurate, but it would be historically more accurate. It would help keep a declining cartridge from slipping further away.

[waksupi]

It seems like an old friend who had a .38 conversion, had to use a heeled bullet to make it shoot correctly.

[Marvin S]

I have an R&D for my Uberti 58 Rem in 45 Colt and it works well and is very accurate. My 58 has the dove tailed front sight which is a big plus.

[Otony]

OK, I found some good info here:
http://www.kirstkonverter.com/default.asp

The soft lead hollow base bullet will “bump up” to the .375-inch bore diameter and shoot very accurately.

Well, my feeling is that you might get some accuracy, but I don't know if it will be very accurate. In theory it works, but if you go to a few of the cowboy action shooting forums, actual practice shows that realistic accuracy is fairly limited.

There is a reason Mr. Taylor relines a fair number of these barrels, and it is called "minute of 55 gallon drum". If you are satisfied with being able to get boolits to hit a man sized target somewhere at a range of less than 15 yards, go ahead. I still think you would be better served by a proper bore to boolit size.

If you pay the money to convert, which is not a drop in the bucket, why handicap yourself? Pay some more $$ and get it done correctly. This is a friendly suggestion BTW, not a condemnation. If you want to try the hollow base boolits first, give it a go. But the cost of a mold for same would be a fair amount of the way towards a relined barrel.

[wellfedirishman]

Regarding the 38 specials, I was citing to the Krist website, not making the assertion myself :-) I should have put quotes around the text, since fixed.

I agree with you, a 358 boolit in a 375 approx bore is going to be pretty wobbly and inaccurate.

I will probably pick up a 45LC conversion, as the boolit size and the ball size are very close.

Thanks for all the info folks, it is much appreciated.

[waksupi]

H-e-e-l-e-d B-o-o-l-i-t-s.

[Gray Fox]

Rapine used to sell molds for heeled bullets for both the .38 long Colt and .44 Colt. I had one of each when I used to load BP loads for a couple of SASS friends. The hardest part was coming up with a way of crimping the respective cartridges. A gunsmith friend came up with a pliers-type tool for both calibers, but it was never anything I liked. It worked, but litterally wasn't a pretty result. If one goes to that kind of effort it's nice to have it look good, too.

[Otony]

Regarding the 38 specials, I was citing to the Krist website, not making the assertion myself :-) I should have put quotes around the text, since fixed.

I agree with you, a 358 boolit in a 375 approx bore is going to be pretty wobbly and inaccurate.

I will probably pick up a 45LC conversion, as the boolit size and the ball size are very close.

Thanks for all the info folks, it is much appreciated.

I thought you might be quoting Krist, but wasn't really sure. And since the subject keeps coming up ;), yes, yes, heeled boolits would work but I for one am not interested in such a solution. It calls for a relatively expensive mold and somewhat unusual loading procedures. This is not meant to offend BTW, just my personal opinion. As Gray Fox mentioned, crimping is not a straight forward proposition, albeit not terribly difficult.

I might as well add this, my .38 Special 1858 New Army arrived today, and I am duly impressed. A deep, deep blue that is very reminiscent of older firearms, plus no burrs, boogers, or boo-boos. Operation is stiff but smooth, no grittiness or clunkiness noted. I am going to perform a bit of smoothing when time permits, which should relieve a bit of the heaviness.

The ejector system is Rube Goldberg beyond belief. No return spring on the ejector rod, which can only be manipulated after dropping the original cap&ball loading lever. It is not going to set any records for loading time unless it is for the longest duration, sigh. Still, this is meant basically for paper punching and very little else, so speed is not a tremendous concern. My Open Top is to be much preferred in this regard, as it essentially has the ejection system from a SAA Colt.

On another note, this is a HEAVY .38 Special, although an 1851 Navy so converted or made would undoubtedly be lighter. This has some liveliness to it and does feel good in the hand, but a .44 or .45 on the Remingotn frame would be more graceful for a certainty. I imagine that with the lighter loads this is destined to eat that it will last a looooong time, and have very, very little felt recoil. Going to try and stretch it out this weekend with a full range report afterwards.

[Alan]

Actually, for .36 (.375 groove) a better conversion is to .41 Colt and using inside lubed boolits of about .376. You can crimp normally. Picked this tid-bit up over on some SASS forums.

Downside is expensive cases, but they should last just about forever.

[bob208]

i have the prints to do your own machine work to convert a 51-61 navy. i use .38 s&w. to get around the bore size i use the bullet from the lee mold that is a conical for the 51. it has a rebate at the base to stat in the chambers stright. and the right dia. for the .375 bore.

[Taylor]

I saw a Uberti yesterday,a 51 colt.Made to look like it had been converted,5'' barrel.Had it of been 45 I would have bought it.

[excess650]

The conversion cylinders cost as much as I paid for my Uberti 1858 Remington. Mine's fit like a Swiss watch, so will remain percussion. There are times when I think the conversion cylinder would be great, but I have enough cartridge revolvers to keep me occupied.

Was it R&D that was reputed to have soft firing pins?

[Tom-ADC]

I've often wondered how the orginals were done, the first conversions? Did they somehow modify the cap & ball cylinder?

[coopieclan]

I have a Pietta 1858 Remington .44 cal
I used a R&D conversion cylinder on the gun and I liked it O.K.

But,
I was stuffing regular (smokeless) .45 long Colt cartridges into it.
They fire O.K. but using the gun this way my loading lever started dropping down after each shot. This led me to notice that I was going to blow the gun apart.

So I started shooting the gun cap and ball style.
I find I like shooting the Black Powder more. I made a little loading stand & bought an antique powder flask too.

I now have the proper "Cow Boy" ammo and it still works fine in my R&D conversion cylinder.
I am considering a Kirst conversion cylinder instead. Now that I am confident the conversion thing works.
The R&D is clunky, you have to to open the gun up to re load while shooting cartridges.

The R&D conversion still works well ... I have put hundreds of rounds through it.

CAUTION!
Don't be like me... only use Black powder equivalent loads. (cowboy action ammo)

Coopieclan

[John Taylor]

Otony, I think you are right. I have never understood an inherently poor conversion from .36 to .38 special. .38 S&W would not only be safer and more accurate, but it would be historically more accurate. It would help keep a declining cartridge from slipping further away.

The 38 S&W has a .359" bullet, not big enough for a .375 bore. Maybe you were thinking of the "380 Revolver" which is the only pistol round using a .375" bullet.
Info from Cartridges of the world.

[Old Ironsights]

I had a Kirst for my ROA before I sold it. It was accurate and useful for when carrying a C&B gun would be "illegal" but carrying a 7-1/2" .45LC was totally good... even thoug my C&B loads beat the FPS snot out of the "Cowboy" loads mandated for the Kirst...

[emptythemag]

i have the prints to do your own machine work to convert a 51-61 navy. i use .38 s&w. to get around the bore size i use the bullet from the lee mold that is a conical for the 51. it has a rebate at the base to stat in the chambers stright. and the right dia. for the .375 bore.

Hello Bob,

Been reading a lot but kinda new member here...I have been researching converting an 1851 over to .38 S&W (.361 inch diameter) and see you may have done this, seen by your post bellow.

I'm thinking about getting a 51' that has some of the conversion already done but need to find out about getting the barrel lined from the current .375" bore... down to the necessary diameter of what looks like .360" to .364" diameter, depending on what I read. Can you offer some advice on what you did with your project? I tried to research lining the barrel but cant find anything that explains what to do.

The gun I'm looking at seems to have a .38 S&W conversion done by SWD, Inc. (Sylvia and Wayne Daniels of Smyrna, GA who were in business 1983-86. The conversions attached to the frame with machined hex screws and required the lower hammer face to be filed or ground back about 1/8-inch (without removing the sighting notch). There is an open loading port on the right-hand side like some of the early Colt conversions but without a swinging gate . Any help is very appreciated....

Thanks to anyone who can chime in with some helpful info.

[docone31]

They were done two ways.
A person, could convert his revolver, or get one new. Back then, folks did not have the cash, so they had a lot converted.
I had read somewhere, of how simple it was. Made a backing plate, opened up the frame, relieved the back of the cylinder. The ejector fit in the loading ram slot.
I have seen one from back then. It was amazing. I was not really knowlegeable of these things back then, but I never forgot it. I do remember, it fired black powder rounds.

[bob208]

the original conversions were done both ways some had new cylinders. and some used the old. remington even brazed rings on the back of some cylinders of their conversions.

i have the drawlings to do the conversion on a 51-61 navy. to .38. it is not hard i have done a few. i used .38spl. cases shortened to .38 colt length. for bullets i used the lee .36 conigal crimped on the reduced loading ring. it is a healed bullet.

[john hayslip]

I have one for. if I remember correctly a Pieta 45 Remington, and have had excellent results. You probably will have to match the maker of the pistol to the cylinder you buy, but I had no installation problems with the one I bought

[greenmntranger]

I have a R&D cylinder in .45 Colt for my Uberti 1858 Revolving Carbine. With .45 Colt "Cowboy Loads" the gun shoots "minute of milk jug" out to 20-30 yards with no problem

GMR

[emptythemag]

I'm thinking an 1851 with a .38 S&W conversion cylinder, fired through the 1851's barrel (.375" bore) wouldn't exactly produce any good knock-down power, since .38 S&W prefers a .360" bore.

Can you get acceptable results using certain lead hollow points/wad-cutters, to make up the difference in the bore vs. bullet size?

I suppose the better methods just get the barrel relined for .38 S&W? Any one have experience on relining barrels? Who would be a good choice to have this sort of work done?

Off topic a little...I've been also reading about how some guys invert their wad-cutters to give the .38 S&W better knock down power.

[JASON50CAL]

I have a navy arms 44 cal 1858 Remington and was wondering if you can load 45 cal lead bullets in the cap and ball cylinder or should you only use round balls.