How fast with a plain base?

[Blackhawk45hunter]

Hi guys, I'm still a little new at this.
I wanna start casting for my 45 colt but money's kinda tight.
I was looking at the Lee 452-255-RF mold to start with. I figure I can use it for targets and light hunting until I get
The 300 grain GC mold I want.

My question is, how fast can I push this bullet cast in WW without leading problems?

I'd like to be around the 900 mark but I'll take whatever I can get as this will be a plinking round.

[462]

Seems the most agreed upon velocity is 1400 fps. Of course, alloy and fit must be appropriate.

[Blackhawk45hunter]

1400 with a plain base???
If that's the case I'll up it to around 1200

[gnoahhh]

One can drive a plain base bullet a lot faster than is prudent in a lot of .45 Colts. Which gun will you be shooting them through?

[Blackhawk45hunter]

My bad, I forgot to mention it's a Ruger Blackhawk and yes, I also plan on some hot rodding :D

[Blackhawk45hunter]

So what's a reasonable velocity to try for?

[georgewxxx]

You mentioned getting a gas check mould at some point. I doubt very many people bother using gas ckecks in a hand gun. Another expense not needed. Just make sure the boolit your using now is big enough for the gun you are using to keep it from leading. WW's is usually the best alloy for what you want to do....Geo

[Blackhawk45hunter]

So a 300 grain bullet @ 1100-1200 fps doesn't need a gas check?

[76 WARLOCK]

44 Mag at 1200 sized .432 plain base no leading. The throats are .432 with a .429 plain base leaded badly and groups were in feet not inches.

[Harter66]

I'm shooting the LEE 452-255 rnfn at 1100 in my RBH with decent accuracy and no leading.

All 6 holes land in 8" out to 50 yds the 225 man steel is really a 1 in 4 thing though.

[Blackhawk45hunter]

Ok, what should I size them to?

[44man]

So a 300 grain bullet @ 1100-1200 fps doesn't need a gas check?
No. Make the boolit hard enough. I have taken PB to 1800 fps and don't know after that because my revolver will not go faster.
Water dropped WW metal has worked for me. For more accuracy, you can add tin and antimony to WW's but 25 to 28 BHN is all you need.
All of my revolvers shoot at about 1350 fps with any boolit, PB or GC. My 45-70 revolver will shoot less then 1" at 100 with a PB at over 1630 fps and zero barrel leading. Water dropped WW boolits.
Only when lead is too soft to take the rifling do you need a GC but you can still skid if lead is too soft.
THE GAS CHECK WAS DESIGNED FOR SOFT BOOLITS!

[Blackhawk45hunter]

Ok, I was under the impression you needed a gas check for anything over a certain speed. But that makes more sense.

What do I size them to? At or over throat diameter?

[462]

"What do I size them to? At or over throat diameter?"

Controversy, here.

I size revolver boolits .001" over throat dimension.

[BABore]

You can drive a PB boolit to the full potential in your Ruger. You will have to do your work to make it happen. First, slug the bbl to find groove diameter. At the same time, look for bbl thread constrictions. That's a choke point just ahead of the forcing cone. It will kill accuracy and cause leading. I drive one pure lead slug all the way through, then a second one flush with the muzzle and then back out. Do some searching here on firelapping. Not that you have to do that, yet, maybe, but I wrote up a post on how to do this second muzzle slug. The muzzle slug should be the smaller of the two. Then, slug all of the throats. They should all be consistent and 0.0005 to 0.001 over your groove diameter. Sometimes even more, but they never should be less than groove. If all this checks out ok, size boolits to your throat. As far as alloy, you need to do your own work here. Don't buy that BS that 44Man is shoveling that the boolit has to be hard. Some guns like soft alloy, some like hard, and some don't care. Also don't buy that it's easier to use a hard alloy. This is all gun dependent. Whatever boolit you go with, cast some up air cooled and water drop some. Work up loads with both hardness's and shoot them side-by-side. Lube makes a difference when you are shooting top-end loads. Treat it like any other reloading variable. Change one variable and you need to work up the load again. I shoot full-house plain base loads in all of my guns with outstanding accuracy. My 44 Ruger prefers a 10 bhn PB boolit over anything else, even a gas checked boolit. It hates them.

[44man]

Never found a revolver that likes soft lead, GC or not.
I shoot Bruce's softer boolits with good accuracy but they need a GC. They are oven hardened per his instructions yet a PB opens groups. We are not talking leading, just accuracy because none of his boolits lead my bore. Going "bang" without leading is not the answer.
Bruce makes great boolits but there are limits to what a PB can do as far as accuracy.
Even light loads of fast powder needs a much harder boolit then a hunting load for small groups. My best accuracy with light loads will use 28 to 30 BHN but my hunting loads do fine with 22 BHN.
My PB will do awful small groups to 100 yards but not if I air cool.
Been shooting revolvers since the early 50's and none have done good with soft lead.
My loads for the .44 and all other calibers will work in every single gun from Ruger to S&W to BFR and on and on. Only a bad gun can not be made to shoot and that will be with anything that you can load.
I like Bruce, he is a good man, smart and makes fantastic boolits and molds. But I can't agree that one gun likes something different from another. Bring over 20 Rugers and my loads will shoot in all of them. Same with the S&W.
I agree that you don't want a screwed up barrel with tight spots, etc. But if the gun is OK, it will shot the best with a boolit that takes the rifling without skidding. It will even shoot with a bore size boolit that is smaller then the throats.
Slump or deform any boolit and you just think doing the same over and over expecting better results is not the definition of insanity.
Harder works and tons of lead and millions of boolits has shown that soft can fail most of the time.
I will stay with my boolits, they need to be only hard enough, not super hard bet never too soft.

[45 2.1]

Never found a revolver that likes soft lead, GC or not.
Several of us have.............. at least the ones who shoot more than cannons.

Bruce makes great boolits but there are limits to what a PB can do as far as accuracy.
That all depends on what you know and what you do.

My loads for the .44 and all other calibers will work in every single gun from Ruger to S&W to BFR and on and on.
How about that S&W 45 Auto revolver your trying to get to shoot?

But I can't agree that one gun likes something different from another. Bring over 20 Rugers and my loads will shoot in all of them. Same with the S&W. Same question as above.

We keep telling you there are a lot of ways to achieve accuracy. Your way works at the pressure levels your shooting (which are way too much for the conventional low pressure guns)....... but most will not work your way. Speed and pressure are a crutch most of the time.

[MtGun44]

Hard and soft are relative terms, and you can get away with a lot softer boolits than
some would have you believe. I find that AC WWts are just fine for an decent plain
base design (Keith or LBT types in general) if at or .001 over throat diameter for full
power loads with 2400 or H110 in .44 mag or .357. Book says the .357 is over 1500,
I doubt my 6" Smith or Ruger is actually getting that fast, but haven't cared enough
to drag out the chrono and check it. Whatever it is, it is the fastest you can push them
within the book loads, so who cares unless you are going to put them in a carbine.

BTW, I have run some of these thru a B94 carbine in .44 mag with no leading, although
the accuracy wasn't anything to write home about. Haven't worked with the gun yet, so
it may be a size issue, or maybe that gun will need harder. So far none of my pistols does
better with harder than AC WWts in the times that I have taken the time to water drop or
heat treat, so I don't waste my time. Same for GCs, why spend the money and time when
a properly done PB will do just as good?

IMO, simpler and cheaper is better.

Bill

[RobS]

Pressures are the key to understanding boolits not merely velocity. A boolit at 12 BHN can shoot very well at 1000 fps and really poorly at 1000 fps........same boolit. Loading with a quick burning powder that generates most of its energy in the cylinder and forcing cone/barrel throat i.e. Bullseye will put a great deal more stress on the bullet during the most susceptible time, cylinder jump to bore. Take the same bullet and use a slow powder i.e. 2400/#9/H110 and the pressure curve peak happens later on (mid way) down the barrel and by passes the cylinder jump to bore issue and in a general sense eases the boolit into forcing cone/bore.

Yes a person can use softer bullets with slower powders successfully; however it is really difficult to push PB boolits to magnum velocities with the quicker powders as to my explanation above. If you are looking for the best results for the faster velocities powder selection (using slower powders to create pressures curves that peak later on in the barrel) and bullet fit will favor you in your quest. All this providing your gun’s cylinder throats are over the barrel’s groove diameter and the bore is smooth.

If you plan on using quicker powders and really push hard on them out of the gate then you'll probably need to utilize harder boolits or work with a GC design. Your bore will tell you before I will on what works and what doesn't that is for sure. There are basic principles to follow and understand which will assist you along your way; the rest will be up to you on figuring out boolit alloy and load development.

[44man]

How about that S&W 45 Auto revolver your trying to get to shoot?
I gave up on this one. The gun is just bad. We tried everything from swaged to hard, very hard. The hard shoots better but not anywhere near to what I would want.
Softer boolits just filled the bore with lead.
Hundreds of loads with nothing better then 2" at 25 yards---yes, they were with the hard boolits. Soft was all over the paper.
The same owner just bought a .475 BFR and with my WD, WW loads I was hitting tin cans at 100 yards with open sights. He is selling the S&W and all of his Freedom guns.
But everyone thinks I only shoot heavy loads---NOT. I shoot as many mouse loads as all of you and still find the alloy really counts.
I can't make a bad gun shoot and that is the bottom line.
The clincher is that I would never ask any of you to buy one of these guns because I would forever be sorry and feel like a louse. You can offer but it is off the table! If I sell a gun, you can be sure that it will shoot.
I do not screw friends.

[Blackhawk45hunter]

Can I use jacket load data (H414 or Lil gun) with cast boolits?

[462]

Either Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook or their Reloading Handbook is the best source of cast boolit loads.

[Blackhawk45hunter]

Ok, and one more question.
Can I use a boolit intended for a GC without a GC?

[mpmarty]

Ok, and one more question.
Can I use a boolit intended for a GC without a GC?

I don't know if you can or not. I do it all the time and have no problems in 30cal and 45/70

[Gelandangan]

Ok, and one more question.
Can I use a boolit intended for a GC without a GC?

Yes, I do this all the time with my 300 Whisper load,
I use Lee 309-200R as casted, lubed with LLA on the Whisper without gas check at 1400 fps.
Pressure on this load is about 45,000 psi according to some internal ballistic software.
No evidence of leading at all.

[Blackhawk45hunter]

Ok, I'll give it a try. Thanks guys!

[quilbilly]

This controversy is quite interesting.
Since I am a pathological tinkerer with loads and experimenter this is how I would deal with your question and have fun with it since I am sure that you will ultimately arrive at a PB load with a MV of over 1100. The key is every firearm I have known has its own personality.
Start by keeping things simple.
Using WW or an alloy of similar hardness work up a load at 950 fps and load 24 rounds after sizing plus lubing appropriately. Test it at 10 and 25 yards for accuracy and after finishing, look at the bore. If no leading, try a load with the same alloy at 1050 fps using the same process. If this all works and you have accuracy and no leading, you have arrived. If you find leading at any point change sizing and/or lube.
In any case you will have a lot of fun and some great practice before any severe leading builds up.
We will all be excited to hear about your results.

[44man]

Ok, and one more question.
Can I use a boolit intended for a GC without a GC?
That depends on the caliber and boolit drive band area. I have had .30 caliber boolits hit nickels and pennies at 100 yards from a rest with a scope yet would tumble at 50 after leaving the check off.
Some revolver boolits with a bevel base can really suck while a flat base is accurate. Leaving a check off can just make a bevel base.
Other boolits do just fine. It is only up to your testing to see if it works.
I am the last to say yes or no.

[243winxb]

My question is, how fast can I push this bullet cast in WW without leading problems?

900 fps. Air cooled

[fredj338]

So a 300 grain bullet @ 1100-1200 fps doesn't need a gas check?

Depends on bullet fit. alloy & lube, but generally no. I run soft 25-1 LHP @ 1000fps w/o a hint of leading. AC ww in my 45-70 to 1500fps doesn't seem to be problem either.
Bullets w/o GC, depends as well. I can get pretty good accuracy w/ them in most calibers @ lower vel, around the 1000fps mark.

[45 2.1]

I can't make a bad gun shoot and that is the bottom line.

A really bad S&W revolver???????????........... Thats just really hard to imagine. SNS with zinc frames yes, but a Smith............ send it back to S&W and see what they say.

[Mal Paso]

A really bad S&W revolver???????????........... Thats just really hard to imagine. SNS with zinc frames yes, but a Smith............ send it back to S&W and see what they say.

It was a Bottom Feeder:Fire:

[44man]

A really bad S&W revolver???????????........... Thats just really hard to imagine. SNS with zinc frames yes, but a Smith............ send it back to S&W and see what they say.
I have been having some thoughts and might try something with the gun. John was using WW primers and groups were very bad. I told him no, use a standard primer and groups got better.
Now being a revolver, I am thinking the case is too small for even a standard primer. I am going to have him bring some brass back so I can bush the pockets for a SP standard primer and see what happens.