Help! 30-06 problems

[Blackhawk45hunter]

Ive recently started trying cast bullets in my 30-06. The bullet I'm using is the Lee .308 200gr gas check. With gas checks over 34 grains of reloaded 7 I'm getting a ridiculous amount of leading after only 10 shots.
My bullets are cast wheel weights and lubed with Alox.

My goal is 2200 fps for use on antelope.

Anyone out there know what I'm doing wrong?

[Ben]

Ive recently started trying cast bullets in my 30-06. The bullet I'm using is the Lee .308 200gr gas check. With gas checks over 34 grains of reloaded 7 I'm getting a ridiculous amount of leading after only 10 shots.
My bullets are cast wheel weights and lubed with Alox.

My goal is 2200 fps for use on antelope.

Anyone out there know what I'm doing wrong?


Yes, swap powders and use 16 grs. of 2400, size the bullets to .310. Be certain that you have enough flare on the case to allow 3/4 of the gas check to easily insert itself into the case when you are seating the bullet.

Seat the bullet so that it lightly engraves the rifling when the bolt is closed. After you have shot some good groups with this , you can think about 2,200 fps with good accuracy later ( a wonderful goal, but one that you'll find VERY difficult to achieve )

Best stay in the 1,800 fps. zone. You'll be much happier.

All that lead you're getting after 10 rds. tells me you have a VERY poor bullet fit in the throat of the rifle and you're pushing the bullet way too fast.

Ben

[Char-Gar]

Air cooled wheel weight will roll snake eyes, much above 2K fps in the 30-06. If you persist on the same course, you will need a harder bullet and a better lube.

I agree with Ben in all regards. You bullet going 2.2K won't kill any better than the same bullet going 1.8K.

Your bullet is rather too pointed for my taste as a game bullet. I would prefer something with a meplat. A few years back I had Mountain Molds make me a 220 grain 30 caliber mold in which the bullet had a large .250 meplat for just such use. It isn't a target bullet, but will hold up decent accuracy to 200 yards which is all I want. I launch it at about 1.9K fps. Unless a hollow point is used, most all cast bullets will punch a through and through wound. The larger the meplat, the great the damage as the flat nose pushes tissue, blood and bone in front of it.

[462]

Ben's supplied excellent information.

I'll suggest to use a better lube, applied either by pan or lubrisizer.

[Blackhawk45hunter]

I've been sizing to .308, I'll try upping it to .309 or .310

I want to push it as fast as I can for a flatter trajectory, it's hard to get a shot under 300 yards in the prairies of Wyoming and I need all the help I can get. :P

I also want to try heat treating them too, will that give me a significant increase in hardness or will I just be wasting my time?

[Recluse]

I've been sizing to .308, I'll try upping it to .309 or .310

I want to push it as fast as I can for a flatter trajectory, it's hard to get a shot under 300 yards in the prairies of Wyoming and I need all the help I can get. :P

I also want to try heat treating them too, will that give me a significant increase in hardness or will I just be wasting my time?

Don't waste your time heat-treating them with your present configuration.

I load that 200 grain boolit up sized to .310 and lubed with a conventional lube of my own making. You can use Carnauba Red and be just fine--it's an outstanding lube.

I use 37.0 grains of IMR4350 to push that boolit and I get MOA. You're using way too much of a way too fast powder for a lead boolit in way too long of a barrel pushing for way too much velocity. Bad combination all around, and add to the fact that you're undersizing the boolit, you're getting bad results.

Work the load up to see how it does for you before simply starting off at the desired objective.

:coffee:

[kir_kenix]

Ben hit it on the nose. If you have been sizing .308, then upping it to .310 will make a huge difference. 2200 fps is a pretty big hurdle right out the gate. Usually you can get GC WW up to 1800-2k without doing anything fancy. That extra few hundred FPS is doable, but fit and hardness becomes even more important at that point.

Good luck Blackhawk45hunter, I'm sure you'll find something that works for you with a little experimentation.

[Blackhawk45hunter]

How do I upsize them?

[kir_kenix]

There are a couple different ways to bump boolits up. You are probably better off just waiting untill your .310 sizer shows up then sizing them down and trying to bump them back up without a die.

[462]

If the boolits aren't dropping at least .310", do a search for "beagling". It's a reversible process that allows a mould to drop fatter boolits. Lapping is another method, though it is permanent.

[Blackhawk45hunter]

Well my bullet mold drops at around .309 to begin with.

Is there a way to seat my gas checks without a sizer so I can use them straight from the mold?

I'm using hornady GC's.

[mold maker]

What size are they dropping from the mold? It might not be necessary to size them at all. If they drop at 310 or 311 they might shoot great as cast. Alox by its self will hardly do the job in your application. See White Label for lubes that can be pan lubed.

[sqlbullet]

I use 37.0 grains of IMR4350 to push that boolit and I get MOA. You're using way too much of a way too fast powder for a lead boolit in way too long of a barrel pushing for way too much velocity.

This.

I have had good luck in my garands with 200 grain with Reloader 15, Varget and H4831. I run around 2000 to 2100 fps. If I was going for 2200 fps, I would probably work up starting with 32 grains of Varget, 36 grains of Reloader 15 or 42 grains of H4831.

[AZ-Stew]

Well my bullet mold drops at around .309 to begin with.

Is there a way to seat my gas checks without a sizer so I can use them straight from the mold?

I'm using Hornady GC's.

If you're using a Lyman lubrisizer, they make a little gadget called a gas check seater that you use with the lubrisizer. This allows the 'check to be seated without running the boolit all the way into the die. After seating the 'checks on all the boolits you need for a given time, you can then run them into a .310 die, for instance, and lube them without sizing them down.

You might also try to obtain some linotype to add to your alloy. This will cause your boolits to drop from the mould at a slightly larger size. They will also be harder and more brittle, but as long as the alloy contains a fair amount of lead, they shouldn't shatter on impact.

Regards,

Stew

[Mk42gunner]

The first thing I would do is to slug the barrel (slugging the throat can help too) to find out what size to start at.

My cast boolit .30-06 will accept a .311" diameter boolit. I use the Lee 312-185 that they market for the .303 British. It drops from my mold with my WW at .313", I lube and seat the gaschecks in a .313 die, then push them through a .311" Lee die.

Robert

[gnoahhh]

If you're looking for a 300 yard hunting rifle you might also want to re-think your approach. Remaining velocity from a bullet hard enough to give sustainable accuracy at those MV levels, coupled with the shape of the nose, equals a not very good shake for the poor critter you aim to cleanly kill.

Get a different mould, preferably with a nice wide flat meplat, size it to fit your bore, cast it soft enough to expand at the farthest distance you realistically think you'll shoot, and drive it at a suitable velocity (which will probably be rather a fair bit less than 2200fps). Then, when you work all that out, practice your hunting skills to get way closer than 300 yds. of your quarry. I may be an Easterner, but during several trips to Wyoming I never killed anything farther than 60 yds. Most, including three pronghorns, were taken at much closer distances. (When asked by guides how I wished to hunt I replied that I wanted to stalk close, not play Joe Sniper from a 1/4 mile away. That response usually produced a smile and a remark like "Oh, so you want to HUNT?")

[Larry Gibson]

How do I upsize them?

If you are set on that cast bullet then I suggest you;

Add 2% tin for better fillout to the WWs and let air cool. You'll want some semblance of bullet performance and a "tough" alloy always does better than a hard brittle alloy for accuracy.

Cast hot for maximum fillout.

If they drop .309-.310 get a .310 sizer.

If they drop .310+ get a .311 sizer.

Make sure the bullet base is square with the sprue evenly cut off.

Make sure the GC (Hornady's are fine) is seated square and bottemed out on the GC shank.

If you are using Lee Liquid Alox double or triple dip the driving band groove portion of the bullets so there is sufficient lube. If you are using another "alox" what kind is it? I have pushed a couple alox/beeswax lubes to 2600+ fps with no leading and excellent accuracy.

Use a slower burning powder as already mentioned. AA4350, RL19 and H4831SC work for me for such loads in the '06.

Since this is a hunting load you won't be shooting long strings. I suggest shooting 8 shot test strings and cleaning the barrel between strings. While shooting for group/accuracy pay attention where the 1st three shots go from the clean barrel. Also pay attention to the last 3 shots and see if they make the group larger. When you find a load that puts the 1st five shots into 2 moa at 100 and 200 yards at 2200 fps consistently then it's time to confirm your 300+ yard shooting with such a load.

The reason for suggesting all of ths is your goal of 2200 fps from a 10" twist '06 is advanced loading and requires advanced techniques. Keep in mind that you just may not beable to do it with that bullet. The Lee C312-185-2R is a good one if it will fit in your '06 as is the 314299. I prefer a lighter weight Lovern style bullet, 311466, for my higher velocity .30 cal loads. Good luck in your quest.

Larry Gibson

[Blackhawk45hunter]

Yeah it's Lee Liquid Alox.
I think I'll drop my target velocity down to 1800-2000ish that'll give me flat enough trajectory for a 300 yard shot and still have enough energy when it gets there.

Could I hand seat the gas checks and load them unsized/crimped?
That would bring me up in diameter and I wouldn't have to wait 2 weeks for another sizing die.

[xr650]

I beagled a mould to get .311". Then my gas checks wouldn't fit the shanks. I made a die for my press to open the checks just a wee bit to get them on.

Blackhawk where are you located?

[Blackhawk45hunter]

Northeast ohio

[MtGun44]

I think you have unrealistic expectations of cast boolits in rifles.

Flat trajectory to 300 yds sounds like something that you could get with jbullets, but
esp with a very heavy boolit, you are unlikely to get the kind of velocities that are
normally associated with 300 yd 'flat trajectories'.

Bigger diam, lighter boolit, start much slower and learn. You have embarked on
a master's degree level project as a newbie. I recommend you start at the
beginner difficulty level and work your way up. Like 16.0 Gr of 2400 at about
1600-1700 fps with a .310 or .311 150-160 gr boolit.

Bill

Bill

[Blackhawk45hunter]

Actually I think 1800 fps will be flat enough for 300 yard shooting. Zeroed dead on at 175 I'll need a 28 inch holdover at 300 yards, plenty flat for shooting goats.

[Recluse]

I'll heartily second the Lee 185RN boolit--that is my primary "go to" boolit for 30-06.

I use the Lee push through sizers to seat ALL gas-checked boolits, then lube them in the lubesizer with a die that is .0001 larger than the mic'd diameter of the boolit.

If you do not have a lubesizer and are not interested in getting one, you might try this: I take the 45/45/10 tumble-lube and add (randyrat's) beeswax to it to make a stick lube. While I do this for use in my lubesizers, I have given several "cakes" of this to fellow cast boolit shooters for testing with pan-lubing and they all reported back with very favorable remarks and success.

:coffee:

[gnoahhh]

28" trajectory at 300 yds.? Well, it's certainly doable if one uses a rangefinder to determine exact distance, and have done one's homework and know exactly the amount of holdover required in 10 yd. increments between 150 and 300, and can eyeball that much holdover through the scope. The reason I say that is retained velocity way out there will yield piss-poor expansion and necessitate surgically precise bullet placement for a humane kill. To do less is totally unfair the animal. Use a suitable bullet and keep the range short and you'll kill animals all day long. Cast bullets are wonderful killers right up to the point where one exceeds the bullet's ability to perform. After that the animal falls victim to the shooter's hubris and suffers accordingly.

[xr650]

You mentioned Wyoming prairies. Apparently you hunt here.
Good luck w/ the 06.

[Blackhawk45hunter]

Ok I just checked lee's site and they only have .309 and .311 sizers, should I get the .309 or would it be a waste of time?
I would look at other brands of dies but I'm doing this as a small side project on a budget and I can only spare a few bucks.

So far my plan is this:
#1 changing my bullet sizer up in diameter
#2 switching powders to something in the lower pressure range
#3 aiming for a lower velocity around 1800-1900 and plan on shots under 250 yards.
#4 either lube twice after sizing or change lube


I have a bunch of Herco laying around so I might try that first. I've had good luck in the past with it.
Will it get me close to the velocity I want?

[Blackhawk45hunter]

And yes, that's where I hunt antelope in the late summer every year.
I can get a lot closer than 300 yards. I just would like to be able to have that long reach in case that buck of a lifetime steps out at 350 yards...

Last year I was hunting with jacketed 150 grain bullets at 2700 fps and a huge buck walked out at 517 yards but due to wind I wasn't confident enough to take the shot.

[Smoke-um if you got-um]

RanchDog makes a great 160-170 gr wide meplat bullet for 30's. it drops at .311+ with Lyman #2 from my mold. Lee Prec. makes a .311 sizer/check seater for about 20.00 bucks shipped. I've found any more than two coats of Alox on the Tumble lube grooves is a waste of time as it pushes off when seating. Don't size your 30-06 cases, just debur the mouth lightly and bell mouth enough to hide the check. Seat to tickle the rifling if possible and use 4350 or similar burning rate. Roughly 40 grains should be a good starting point. H414 has worked well for me as does 4350. I personally use Rem. 9 1/2 M primers for almost everything cast, mostly because I had quite a few thousand on hand but they they seem to do extremely well. Last is a good firm crimp, careful if you roll crimp. Lee Factory Crimp die is superior, im my opinion. Makes a really neat,professional looking crimp and WORKS. If I got to 1900-2000 w/o leading and the accuarcy was acceptable, believe I would grin real big and take it. It's just a fact each rifle has it's own limitations, we just have to find them. Good Luck and remember to HAVE FUN, that's what this all about......at least until somebody gets an eye poked out, remember that one ?

[Blackhawk45hunter]

I have a bunch of H414 laying around, it's my go-to powder for jacketed rounds.

Isn't there a danger of secondary pressure spikes when down-loading slower powders?

It WOULD give me lower pressures though...

[felix]

Yes. ... felix

[Blackhawk45hunter]

Ok, so I'll switch to a slower powder,
Is a .309 die even worth my time?

[kir_kenix]

I'm not going to say that .309 is a waste of time, but if I had to choose between a .309 or .310/.311...The bigger one would get my vote every single time. I have 3 different .30 rifles that like .309, and over a dozen that like .310, .312, or .313.

I would go ahead with the .311, but that just a guess. Good luck man.

[Blackhawk45hunter]

Alright, thanks guys! I'll let you all know how it works out.

[Blackhawk45hunter]

I upped the dia to .309 and changed my lube to Lithi-Bee applied via pan lubing. I also switched to the Lee C309-170-RF.

So far, no leading and hunting grade accuracy:http://184.72.239.143/mu/a6898f47-bba8-1cae.jpg

The load is 25 gr 5744 @ 1950fps

[Blammer]

good deal!

I was going to recommend IMR3031 as that's what I use with my 225gr cast 311284 in my 30-06. Mine fly at 1850fps.

I got a deer this year with it at approx 150yds. :)

Here is a typical 100yd target for me and this load.
oh yea I size to .309 :)

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Targets/File0150.jpg

[scrapcan]

Well it looks like you are on your way to getting the rifle to shoot.

That is only part of the issue when choosing to hunt with the cb. Being able to make groups off the bench does not always equate to being able to do that off your belly or off your two feet when in the field, practice as you will have to shoot in the field also.

And thank you for not taking a shot that you were not confident in. We have lots of speedgoats, but even they deserve a clean kill.

[Blackhawk45hunter]

Practice is no issue for me, I shoot thousands of rounds a year and can hit a 3" target at 150 yards in almost every field shooting position. The beauty of shooting CB's is I can shoot even more now, at half the cost.

[USSR]

I was going to recommend IMR3031 as that's what I use with my 225gr cast 311284 in my 30-06. Mine fly at 1850fps.

Charge weight?

Don

[Blammer]

31gr's forgot to put it on the post but it's on the target pic yes the 4475 is the military equal to IMR3031