Getting accuracy out of a 9mm

[Dannix]

I'm rather new to the world of reloading, and after shooting a good bit of mixbrass-based reloads that frustratingly gave me minute of paper plate accurately at close ranges, after I had enjoyed far better accuracy with WinchesterWhiteBox, I caught the accuracy bug in a big way.

The first thing I did was separate out a few dozen FC cases and switch from my conservative ~4.75grn Universal loads to 5.0 at 1.26 COAL. Bullets were 115gr Precision Delta JRNs. (5.0 at 1.25" COAL is a Lee max load @ 31,200 CUP). The results were immediately a step in the right direction. So I sorted all my brass. Unfortunately the lots of brass I got on the selling/swapping area here and another forum somewhere were very mixed bags. It largest headstamp grouping is around 200 or so in quantity and I have a whole bunch of smaller groupings, many with headstamps I've never heard of before.

So now what?

Find an accurate load for each headstamp by adjusting, slightly, the powder charge to make up for the slight difference in case capacity?
Standardize on a particular headstamp and sell off the rest?

Also, how tough is Speer brass for hotter 9mm loads, say 124gr at 1250fps? My thought is if the latter route of standardizing on a particular headstamp is the way to go, perhaps choosing Speer, if it is indeed good brass, over Federal or Winchester would make it easier to get?

Edit: Gun type: Glock 19 (midsize 9mm). Still shooting j-words in it. I got about 1.5k j-words left, and the I'll pick up a Jarvis barrel and pick up mould, probably BRP's, assuming I have the funds then.

[Harter66]

Out here where I am winchester is the major contributor so that is the one I picked. Ultimately I think 1 will be as good as the others. Cast boolits can be a bit fickle. In the autos the thinest walls are best (generally)for accuracy. If you need large volumes ,shooting games,then I would say buy 1lot of 1000 or work up loads for your 2 or 3 largest lots. I keep about 500 win cases prepped but a couple hundred of the mixed bag done up and put away just in case.

I think speer is good brass I just don't see much of it here.

As a guide I've found tha my best groups a rarely any where near max loads and more often than not are at or just under half of the minimum/maximum window .

[deltaenterprizes]

How about giving a little more information as to the type of gun you are shooting?
Can you define WBB?
Case weight is one way of segregating mixed headstamped brass, even the same headstamp can vary in weight. Next is internal case volume, one way is to fill the case with water and weigh the water.
Hot loads decrease case life and are not usually the most accurate.
Were those bullets or boolits you are loading? The 115 gr does not have much bearing surface to grip the rifling.

[Echo]

I'm not terribly experienced with 9mm's, so take what I say with a grain (not necessarily a DOSE!) of salts.

Decide on the accuracy level you need, and work from there. I believe the USAF Custom Gun Shop accurized their Premium Grade .45's to 10-ring accuracy @ 50 yards, that is, 2.5-3" @ 50 yards. That is sufficient to shoot possible scores (I only did it once, @ Perry - 100/3, followed by a 95/4, for THIRD PLACE!), out of a rest, and therefore any drops were due to shooter or ammo error. It is possible to accurize a .45 to tighter groups, but the added expense is a factor that has to be considered. So be it with your effort.

Wringing the absolute BEST accuracy from a gun/ammo combination is a time and resources expensive effort Sometimes 'Good Enough' HAS to be good enough. Minute-of-paper-plate accuracy @ 7 yards is sufficient for self-defense, but not for any formal competition. But 2" @ 50 yards may not be necessary for the shooting you will be doing.

All that said - sorting your cases will improve the grouping. You may find that different loads are needed for different cases, but maybe some cases will respond the same as others. If so, then I would load, and shoot them together. If they group together, they can be shot together.

YMMV...

[casterofboolits]

I must be doing something wrong as I never found 9mm hard to load for. The 9mm is not my primary intrest, it is way down the list after 45 ACP, 38 Super, 44 Mag, 38/357 and 40 S&W.

As I used to cast commerially, I had a large number of moulds and boolit styles to choose from.
H&G #275 09-125-SWCBB
H&G #309 09-125-TCPB
Saeco #115 09-122-RNBB (actually drops 125 grains with my alloy, as do the H&G moulds), Lyman #356634 09-130-TCPB (two moulds) and one that drops 135 grains
Lyman #356402 09-120-TCPB
Lyman #356637 09-147-FPBB

I tested these boolits in a Browning HiPower, a Colt Commander and a FIE Tanfoglio. Once I determined that all three pistols liked boolits of 357, I was able to get dime sized groups at fifteen yards on our indoor range. This was with mixed brass and using BlueDot powder loaded on a Dillon SDB.

I favor the H&G # 275 and it fed 100% in my pistols. COL and taper crimp are critical areas to pay attention to. YMMV

[Dannix]

delta,

Glock 19 (midsize 9mm). Still shooting j-words in it. I got about 1.5k 115grn Precision Delta j-words left, and the I'll pick up a Jarvis barrel and pick up mould, probably either Lee's .358 125gr FN, or BRP's ~130gr. We'll see. But j-word or boolit, it will be ~124-130gr from here on out.
Sorry. WWB -- Winchester White Box
Yeah, I've considered hot =/= accurate. I'd like to replicate a self defence load, so what I plink with is very similar to what I would have in a real situation. I'm willing to play with powders and primers.
I'm thought about weighing and length sizing, but I'll wait to go to that extent if/when I have to.


Echo, I get you on "good enough." With WWB, I got a ~5" 20-round group at 30yrds. ~3.5" if I discount 3 outliers. I'd be satisfied with this. 3" at 50yrds sounds great, but I won't be attempting such accuracy. Really though, anything better than a 12" group at 6-7yrds would be a step in the right direction.

casterofboolits, sounds like a nice load you got there. You've given me hope that once I find a good powder charge, slight changes in case capacity won't effect the accuracy too much. Still though, with ~124gr @ 1200-1250fps, I'm going to do some careful quantitative analysis. Otherwise what could be 1250fps in an FC case could potentially make for a very bad day in another, yeah?

[casterofboolits]

Did I read that right? Just doesn't seem like it would be safe in a 9X19 to me.

The load I use runs right at 1,100 FPS. The 9mm is an inexpensive plinker to me and I see no reason to hot rod it.

[MtGun44]

Frankly, none of the stock service pistols are capable of serious accy with ANY ammo.

If you want really small groups, buy a quality .22 LR pistol, you will spend years of
serious work in equaling the accy that is immediately and cheaply available - if you
ever do equal it, and most will not, ever.

If you are just talking about 2-3" at 25 yds, this is readily doable with many pistols. Personally,
I just order up 500 or 1000 Starline brass (or Win or Rem or Fed if you prefer) which I
have found to be top quality and extremely consistent. I shoot 95% of my .45 ACP in
IPSC matches where a 20 yd head shot is the greatest accy required, so I use commercial
cast and random headstamped brass which easily meets this requirement. For the more
rare bullseye target matches (Swiss pistol matches which require a fixed sight service
pistol) I use my own cast boolits and a single lot of Starline brass. This helps a good bit
for the longer range, like 50 yds, not nearly as much diff at 25 yds, but very definitely tighter
than commercial boolits and mixed brass.

If you really want to have a 9mm that is spooky accurate, buy a S&W 952. A friend has
one and it is amazing. IMO any stock Glock, Sig, S&W, Colt, Kimber, Springfield, etc is going
to be limited to about 2.5" at 25 yds, altho some guns and some loads will definitely break
this level. Just know that they are the exceptions.

Bill

[Dannix]

1200-1250fps. Sorry about the typo. 2k fps in a 9x19 would be quite a challenge.

MtGun44, thanks for giving me a benchmark. When I was talking with Jarvis a while back when looking at getting one of his barrels (to gain a more cast boolit friendly rifling), he mentioned something about poor accuracy with the stock Glock barrel. I thought he was just pushing his wares, but maybe it was more a reflection little quality time I've had to other handguns. Maybe his barrel will make a non-trivial gain in accuracy with this gun model. We'll see.

S&W 952 - That's a nice looking 9mm. It would be too heavy for me to carry though and too expensive for a car or home gun, for my wallet anyway. Though I'm considering switching to something thinner to carry IWB, my Glock is my winter carry gun, and that's why I'm willing to invest in time and a new barrel for it.


9mm no more accurate or inaccurate than .45; it's simply the grade of guns commonly chambered for each calibre, true?

[Lloyd Smale]

I had a 952 and it shot well but was not anything exceptional. To me honest the p18 para i had would outshoot it and the sti trojan i had would outshoot it by a bunch. Few things ive found trying to get accurate 9mm loads are first you want hard bullets. Ive had best luck with straight linotype or water dropped bullets. Second is you dont want to push them any harder then it takes to run the gun relibably. Third is size. Bullet size seems even more critacal in the 9 then most other guns. Ive had the best luck with 357. 358 can even be better but some tighter chambered guns wont run them. One other thing to keep in mind is for some reason it seems to be very easy to get a bullet started into the case crooked. Make sure you guide the bullet into the case as straight as possible. Rcbs makes a 115 and 120 grain round nosed mold that has given me about the best overall accuracy across the board in my 9s. Dont by the target version with the shoulder. It makes better holes in the target but just doesnt shoot as well as the plain round nosed version. Another bullet ive had good luck with is the 105 lee swc for the 38s. problem is that it wont run in some guns and in the ones that it will run in seating dept is critical to get it to run reliably. My para with ammo it liked would easily shoot 1 inch 25 yard groups and my trojan would do it at 50. The smith 952 could be made to shoot too but it was so tight chambered that it was about impossible to get reliability with anything but factory ammo and even then didnt shoot along side the sti. By the way i used mixed brass for all of it. My eyes are just to old to read headstamps on those small cases and my 9mm and 45acp and 40 sw brass is in buckets not boxes.

[MtGun44]

Actually, whether the 9mm or .45 ACP are 'inherently' more accurate is something that I
personally wouldn't be able to make much of a meaningful comment on. In my experience,
the 2700 Bullseye game developed some really accurate 1911s. Whether the 9mm can
be made as accurate? ???? My friend's 952 is very accurate. The old S&W 52s (.38 Spl in
flush full wadcutter only) were reported to be extremely accurate semi-autos, but I have
not shot one personally. With each - good boolit design, size, lube, consistent loading
(Hornady dies have a floating boolit alignment sleeve, even in their pistol dies), matched
brass and a load "that the gun likes" are the main factors. I have had real good
results with the Lee 356-124 TC conventional lube groove boolit design sized .357 or .358.

I guess the issue winds up being what the goal is. I would reiterate that if you just want
to shoot tiny groups, nothing in my experience will come close to what you can routinely (& cheaply)
do with a good .22 LR with good ammo. A Ruger Auto can do well under 1" at 25 yds with
good ammo. Some of the match ammo are good, and I have had excellent results with Win PowerPoint,
in both rifles and pistols. A friend has shot 1.5" at 50 yds with a Ruger 22/45 and open sights!
Probably not repeatable.

I can pretty reliably get about 1.1" or a bit better from a number of revolvers, .357, .38 Spl and .44 Mag.
(25 yds) With semiauto service type pistols, I do not expect to beat 2" consistently and most seem to do
about 3" or more with most ammo. Lloyd has had some particular pistols that would shoot really well,
but I don't think he would claim that every P18 or STI Trojan would be exceptionally accurate,
but maybe he would, I don't really know. Again - what is "really accurate" and is it one group
or something that you can do 3 times out of 4 tries? I have gotten under 2" at 50 yds a few times
with some pistols, but usually it is just at or over 2" with my best pistols and loads. I am a fair
shoot, but make no claims that I am some real expert. There are certainly more accurate guns
and shooters out there, without any doubt. I used to have a rotary breech 'pocket rifle' Lone Eagle
single shot that would do about 1.3-1.6" at 100 yds, but it isn't a pistol in any real sense except from
a pure technical standpoint.

Another issue is what the shooter can do. The little .22s are 'no excuses' guns, and can be
really good as a learning tool, although they usually show big differences with different
brands and often diff lots of ammo.

Best of luck.

Bill

[fecmech]

Dannix--As previous posters have said for the 9mm size is very important and once I got that through my head it made life with 9's easy. Another thing is if you want any speed with accuracy get away from the fast powders. My best results with cast in the 9 was with Hodgdon Longshot and right behind that Blue Dot. I've only worked with 3, 9MM pistols, a Firestar, Khar and Browning HP but they all would manage 2-3" groups at 25 yds duplicating factory jacketed velocities with cast. The BHP would average1.5"@25yds with some Longshot loads running 1200FPS+. Water drop the bullets and size .357-.358 or as big as you can chamber and that should get you in the ballpark. Also when dealing with service pistols IMO mixed headstamps don't matter much in the accuracy dept.

[Dannix]

Well yesterday I decided to start out as quantitative as possible. I took the Speer cases that I had sorted out of one of my mixed bags and measured the case OAL of each one. I wasn't until half way through that I realized I had already belled the cases, so data isn't as good as it could be, but I wasn't going to start over.

<.7440 and >7.455 went into a pile together. My rational is that once I find an accurate powder charge with the hopefully more consistent case capacity, I can then see how that charge fairs with a very inconsistent case size.

A single case weighted from roughly both ends of the case length spectrum yielded a 5.5 grain difference. I started with 130 Speer cases, and ended up with 60.

Universal was in the powder measure at the time, so that's the powder that got the nod to started with. (Silhouette, WSF, and AA#7 loads are pending). I loaded up 8 or 7 rounds for each powder charge. 4.5-5.x @ 1.25 OAL (warning 5.0 is the Lee max), and I had one set of brass left to try Hodgon's max load 4.5 @ 1.1 OAL.

Depends on when I hit the range next, but Silhouette will be the next powder I'll work up, albeit using the Winchester cases I sorted out.




Speer Cases Qty:135 01/11/11
For Loading Range
Lengths, In. Length (in), Weight (gr) Minimum Maximum
0.7505 0.7430: 59.3gr 0.7440 0.7455
0.7505 0.7505: 64.8gr QTY Count: 60
0.7500
0.7500
0.7500
0.7500
0.7495
0.7490
0.7490
0.7485
0.7485
0.7485
0.7480
0.7480
0.7480
0.7475
0.7475
0.7475
0.7470
0.7470
0.7470
0.7470
0.7470
0.7470
0.7470
0.7470
0.7470
0.7470
0.7470
0.7470
0.7465
0.7465
0.7465
0.7465
0.7465
0.7465
0.7460
0.7460
0.7460
0.7460
0.7460
0.7460
0.7460
0.7460 ---
0.7460 ---
0.7460 ---
0.7460
0.7460
0.7460
0.7460
0.7460
0.7460
0.7455
0.7455
0.7455
0.7455
0.7455
0.7455
0.7455
0.7455
0.7455
0.7455 ---
0.7455
0.7455
0.7455
0.7455
0.7455
0.7455
0.7455
0.7455
0.7455
0.7455
0.7455
0.7455
0.7455
0.7450
0.7450
0.7450
0.7450
0.7450
0.7450
0.7450
0.7450
0.7450 ---
0.7450
0.7445
0.7445
0.7445
0.7445
0.7445
0.7445
0.7445
0.7445
0.7445
0.7445
0.7445
0.7445
0.7445
0.7445
0.7445
0.7445
0.7445
0.7445
0.7440
0.7440
0.7440
0.7440
0.7440
0.7440
0.7440
0.7440
0.7440
0.7435
0.7435
0.7435
0.7435
0.7435
0.7435
0.7435
0.7430
0.7430
0.7430
0.7430
0.7430
0.7430
0.7430
0.7430
0.7430
0.7430
0.7425
0.7425
0.7420
0.7420
0.7420
0.7415





fecmech, thanks for putting Longshot on my radar for when I switch to boolits. Longshot sure seems like a very slow powder for 9mm (as per Raab's burnrate chart (http://reloadingroom.com/index_files/Burn%20Rates.htm)). What boolit weight are you pushing? 124gr? 130gr? You getting any unburned powder? Is it flashy? I'm surprised you're going 1,200fps+ without case sorting. [Edit: Called "loudshot" here (http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12740&hl=major+9). You concur?]

[fecmech]

Dannix--I'm not a "Gamer" so most of my shooting is done outdoors in the day time and my only concern is accuracy for what ever velocity that I want to run at. As to muzzle flash LS did not appear noticeably "flashy" to me. The noise level was not exceptionally loud in the 9MM that I noticed. When using LS in 20 or 28 ga shotguns it is very noticeably louder than other powders and I think that is where the term "loudshot" came from. I used 5.7 grs of LS with the 121 Lee TC boolit and it ran 1240 fps with an ES of 29 fps and sd of 9. That was with Fed cases and Rem sp primer and an oal 1.060 out of a Browning HP. This load would stay under 2"@25 yds all day long( my notes list 1.5" for 10 shots@ 25 yds).
It was also the most accurate powder with Kead 147 cast bullets (at the time I had no 147 mold) and I used 4.6 of LS again with Fed cases and RP primers for 1018 fps with an ES of 39 fps and sd of 13 at an oal of 1.130. The data for these loads is 10 shot strings. Just as an aside to your concern about mixed cases my notes show this same 147 load(except with Fed primer) in mixed cases for 20 shots as the following:1000 fps avg. ES 51, SD13. I got the same ballistics with the Lee (discontinued) 150 gr 2R at the same OAL. The Lee 150 and the Kead 147 were very close in accuracy to the Lee 121 but it was still the best. Also Blue Dot would be my next pick after LS for speed and accuracy with boolits. All my 9MM boolits were sized .358 and waterdropped. Hope this helps. Nick

[Dannix]

Post #13 updated.


I used 5.7 grs of LS with the 121 Lee TC boolit and it ran 1240 fps with an ES of 29 fps and sd of 9. That was with Fed cases and Rem sp primer and an oal 1.060 out of a Browning HP.
1.060 - That's an interesting OAL. How did you end up with that?


Also Blue Dot would be my next pick after LS for speed and accuracy with boolits.
Did you ever try AA#7? I flipped a coin and picked up some AA#7 rather an BlueDot recently, mainly because I heard the Dots don't meter well and AA#7 is a more forgiving near the max.

Thanks Nick and all others.

[Lloyd Smale]

aa7 doesnt meter real well either. If you want a powder near that burning speed that does try hs6. Like i said most of my 9mm loading is for target shooting not self defense and accuracy means more to me then speed. I usually run bullseye or aa2 and a light spring.

[HeavyMetal]

I found a copy of Ken Water's 9mm update, 1982 handloader May issue, to be my go to source for 9mm reloading info.

Dated as far as powder choice the rest of the information Ken wrote about is priceless.

Of particular interest to you will be the case length and case capacity information.

Ken found that case length's were all over the place even in a single box of 50 rounds!

By limiting OAL on the case length he kept all case's to a .002 plus or minus variation he found groups shrank by 25%.

I can confirm this with my own shooting.

He also did a little checking on case capacity by measuring how much water a fired case would hold. He listed several head stamps, and I'm sure some may have changed by now, but he found case's with the largest capacity were also less prone to pressure changes.

Find a copy of of the May 82 issue of Handloader or use this as an excuse to buy Ken's Pet Loads book.

In either case this 9mm info alone is worth the purchase.

[Dannix]

I'll add Ken's Pet Loads book to my list. Got the Speer Wildcat reloding book on the list as well. Seems all the good books are rather pricey. One thing I would be very interested in knowing right off is what case length he standardized on in his testing, if you care to look it up.

I came across a CZ-oriented 9mm reloading (http://members.cox.net/hayes1966/reloading9mm.htm) article, but unfortunately it does not elaborate on the nuances between Federal and Winchester cases. My impression is that Federal and Winchester are either tough, have greater than average case capacity, or both. The Major Nine guys must be using them for a reason.

This leverguns.com 9mm reloading (http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/9mm_reloading.htm) article has some interesting info but at least some of the numbers are flawed, surely, as .750 is listed as the most accurate Speer case length, but .745 is listed as the largest case length of the lot.

The highpowersandhandguns site unsurprisingly has some good load (http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Handloads.htm) info too.

[fecmech]

"1.060 - That's an interesting OAL. How did you end up with that?"

Thar's just that particular bullet shape and headspacing it on the rifling like I do with .45 target loads. The pic shows it with a couple 124's and a 115 gr.

"I heard the Dots don't meter well and AA#7 is a more forgiving near the max."

I don't know how "forgiving" AA7 is but I don't think you can load an unsafe load with BD and a 115 or 124 gr bullet. There simply is not enough room in the case and Alliant lists 8.2/BD/124 lead at 29.7K PSI. That much BD pretty much fills the case, you run out of room before things get hairy!
I load on a progressive with a sliding charge bar and different size bushings to vary powder charges. My ES's and SD's with BD are no worse than I get with other powders. I think BD gives a good soft start (about as soft as you can get in a 9MM) and due to it's bulk protects the base initially.

I try to keep things as simple as possible in my shooting. I try to use what I call "unfussy loads". Those are loads that are uniform and accurate without going to great lengths to make them so. I start with bullets that do well in the gun, that's primary and most important. In the 9mm, the Lee 120TC and the RCBS and Lyman versions are accurate boolits in most 9"s and amazingly accurate in .38's and .357's. They shoot well at speed in the 9 and at 900 fps over a light charge of Bullseye. I won't argue that you will get maximum accuracy from identical brass and when I do load development that's what I do. That said, if it's a good load that does 1.5-2"@25 yds in a service pistol with same brass it will be accurate with mixed brass. It may not do as well and go 2-2.5" but it's unlikely to go to 5 or 6".
My advice is pick a good bullet and if you want light 800-900fps target loads with 120 gr or 115 gr bullets like LLoyd shoots, Bullseye,231 and other fast powders are fine. If you want to run Condom speeds with accuracy IMO you need to look at slower powders. Also my experience with leading is that I always had light streak leading at the top end in 9's. It never built up (in good loads) in that the barrel looked the same after 100 rds as it did after 1 round. My impression was that 1 round left a light streak, the next took that one out and left another and so on. Just my take on 9's

[HeavyMetal]

Ken's article does not specifiy a certain length only that he stayed within .002 for all case's loaded.

"mike'ing" enough 9mm case's has shown me that .750 is a very do-able length if you have enough case's to sort through. I suspect that's what Ken settled on as he mentions that length several times in one paragraph.

So what I have done is bought large batch's of 9mm brass, say 3 or 4 thousand at a whack.

Sorted by head stamp

Sized and deprimed

Used a Lee Collet and Dead Length trimmer set up in a 24 volt cordless drill.

Trimmed the pin that goes trough the pimer flash hole to make sure case's were .750, Lee factory setting is the "fairy tale" .754

I then start trimming case's! sticking to WW and as a primiary case with Remington's as a second.

These head stamps hold 9 and 8 grains of water respectively most others held 7.5. This means smaller case internals and higher pressures even if using the same load.

Any way if the case doesn't trim square it's short and goes back on the block if it does trim square, meaning the brass cut all the way around the mouth of the case, it's a keeper!

This gives you correct length case's! Deburr the mouth with a VLD tool, my latest accruacy kick, and then ream the primer pockets for unifom seating and your good to re load.

This usually only has to be done once and it is some work but, as in all thing, you get what you pay for.

One more thing: the most accurate 9mm is a Sig p210 1 inch groups are large for this gun!

Some day I hope to win the lottary and be able to afford one.

[Lloyd Smale]

I agree with heavy metal. The sig 210 is one i left out because ive never owned one but the couple i shot were very accurate guns.

[Dannix]

Thanks for the comments!

I tried to get to the range over the weekend. Actually, I should say I did get there, but it was closed on account of snow and ice. Too bad the nearest national forest isn't too much farther, but in the opposite direction. :groner:

I now have a Universal and Silhouette (based on WAP data) loads ready to try out. I came across this thread (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=430720), and so I sent an email to Ramshot. I have some WSF and AA7 next to try, but those are mainly for when the switch to boolits is made. I wished I had picked up some small rifle primers to try with the slower burning stuff and some BlueDot too.

[Harter66]

No,no,no rifle primers in pistol cases ever! High primers case slam fires. Rifle primers are taller than pistol primers.

[9.3X62AL]

No,no,no rifle primers in pistol cases ever! High primers case slam fires. Rifle primers are taller than pistol primers.

I'll add emphasis to Harter's caveat! No need for rifle primers, or even small pistol magnum primers in 9 x 19. Winchester and CCI SP primers work fine right up to the caliber's max pressure levels (35K PSI). The 9mm is a small case with short powder column, no need for lightning bolts through the flash hole.

I'm able to run cast 125 grain TC boolits to 1250 FPS from a SIG P-226 and Ruger P-89 in Remington brass with plenty of radius left on the primer edges. I've done this with powder speeds ranging from WW-231 to Blue Dot. Accuracy is not bad for service-grade pistols with their wider chamber specs. 3" at 25 yards with OEM barrels and their usual 1-10" twists is possible without a lot of fuss and bother, as long as boolits fit the barrel throat. If the boolits are undersized, fuggetaboutit. Groups will widen, bores will lead up, the kids will buy rap CDs, and politicians will buy infomercials in prime time on Discovery Channel. We can't have that, now, can we?

RN castings don't shoot as well from my 9mm pistols as do the TCs/SWCs, from light to full-tilt loadings regardless of powder speed.

The most accurate 9mm pistols I've ever fired were 1) a match-tuned Beretta 92FS, using a Bar-Sto barrel and "timed" locking wedge, whatever that means. The other was a box-stock Springfield Armory 1911A1 "Loaded" model in stainless steel, with fixed sights. Both were 1" pistols at 25 yards, jacketed or cast, and sub-3" at 50 yards. Features they had in common were minimum chambers--minimum throats--on-spec grooves (.355"), and 1-16" twist rates. It IS possible to do, in other words.

I have other incantations and exorcisms for you when you get to the point of loading lead boolits. Say when ready. Most of these have to do with taper crimp dies and Lee Factory Crimp Dies, both of which are tools of perdition for the cast boolit pioneer, and over which many a traveler has stumbled and fallen.

[dualsport]

:mrgreen:The 9mm is making me nuts. I'm thinking of using the benchrest shooter's technique and load at the range, using just one case. Load it, shoot, go find it, repeat. Let's the barrel cool between shots too. Maybe I'll just shoot a rimfire.

[Cherokee]

dualsport - I always thought the 9mm was going to be a pain to get accurate loads because I was using service type guns but when I tried my 1911 with a Briley barrel, accuracy with most bullets was not a problem. .355 bore, mininum chamber do make a difference. Tell us more about your gun and what you've tried, maybe we can help. Lots of good info in the above posts.

[dualsport]

I have a Tanfoglio made TA90. It's a great gun but has been leading prone with cbs. A freind loaned me a mold to try, it's a GB mold from here, 6 cav Lee, .38 Super/9mm. I have high hopes for this one but haven't got to cast any up yet. I will soon, then I'll report back. Also for a hoot I'm going to try the Ranch Dog 100 gr. .380 boolit in my 9mm, I got a 6 cav. from him. It shoots great in my Bersa .380. With my alloy they are dropping at .3595 so may need a pass thru a sizer. The Lee 124 TLTC has been poor in my 9mm.

[ticket machine]

I spent a considerable amount of time several years ago working with the 9. To make a long story short, I found that reducing the pressure, and the velocity would give me better results. I would pick up range brass from some Police agency that had been there and shot a bunch from a couple of cases of 9's. My favorite were the Federal 9mm Hydra-Shok because they used a nickel plated case. I cleaned the cases in a tumbler, sized them, and cleaned them again. I used Federal Gold Medal Small pistol match primers and Hodgdon Titegroup powder, about 3.6 grains I believe. I seated bullets with a Redding Competition bullet seating die, to the same length as a factory Winchester White Box 115 FMJ. For bullets I usually loaded the Winchester 115 FMJ-hollow base. They make a flat base also since the hollow bases won't work in a bullet feeder. The hollow bases have always grouped better for me in any gun I tried them in. I also loaded a NEI Handtools 115 SWC that I moly-coated, then sized, and then weight sorted. Bummed the others out that a cast boolit would shoot that well. I then found the Remington 147 Match bullet, and that is what I would always use at 25 or 50 yds. That thing shot great out of a stock Beretta. I always weight sorted the Remington bullets, used the same powder charge, and seated them to the same length with the Redding die. Went to a lot of trouble but won a lot of matches, too. Next year after I did this, lots of people showed up at the range with Beretta 9's. But, they did what most people did, they shot the economy box of FMJ ammo, and they just couldn't hang with mine. I told people where to get the NEI Mold, but most wouldn't go to the trouble of casting boolits. Those sharp round holes were really neat to see on a firing line with 19 others using FMJ. I loved shooting the cast boolits but trying to keep up with practice and match ammo with a 2 cavity mold while working 12 hour shifts got to be a chore.

[Dannix]

I know at least some of the guys on the Brian Enos forum are using SPM and SR primers with success. I'll have to looks more closely on whether it's really only the Minor Nine guys though. (I've made my personal max at less than Major). The thought is that SPM/SR reduces deviation for slower 9mm powders, correct? There's got to be something attractive about them, surely. There's one company, I believe it's CCI, where their SPM and SR are basically the same primer. I'll have to look up the link.

Playing with the stock "service" barrel is out for me since it has polygonal rifling. [smilie=b: (I have yet to see a reason why some companies have gone polygonal, except that it's allegedly more accurate).

9.3X62AL, would the 358-136 PB (http://brp.castpics.net/P1.html), and here (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=70126&highlight=358-136), be classified in your "RN" category? I'm looking for ~125gr when HPed. I don't know an TC boolits that meet that. BRP's 358-130 has a longer bearing surface, which apparently would aid in accuracy, but it has a smaller metplat. (My thought is if I switch to boolits, then I should use the same for my "serious social puroposes" rounds, hence the HP requirement, and a add more tin or make a 2-parter for the non-plinkers. Perhaps instead I should find a boolit load the feels very similar and shoots to the same point of aim as a factory defense cartridge. I'd then be shooting boolit and j-words through the same barrel though.)

For some reason Jarvis (http://www.jarvis-custom.com/Products/tabid/53/ctl/ProductDetail/productId/1/mid/388/Default.aspx) caught my eye instead of Bar-Sto. Not sure if it's 6 of one, half-dozen of another. They are about the same price. I'm thinking about getting the Jarvis barrel "fitted", but I'm not sure - worth the extra money, or would a fitted barrel be a potential decrease in reliability for a carry gun? Concerning twist rate, I read a 1:10.5 was about ideal for 124grn (context was j-words), but that sounds more like the twist for 147 to me. Is 1:16 going to be fast enough for <=130gr?

I know the pistol LFCD is a no go for pistol. There was a good thread about this several months back. When loading up some j-words the other day though, I was wondering about taper crimping. Do you crimp just enough to remove the bell, and use slightly compressed load options to prevent bullet/boolit setback?


ticket machine, sounds to me like you need a 6-banger. :)

[Dannix]

One more thing: the most accurate 9mm is a Sig p210 1 inch groups are large for this gun! Some day I hope to win the lottary and be able to afford one.
Now that's one really nice looking gun. With the 1911 being replicated umpteen times, are there any modern clones of the P210?

[Cherokee]

dualsport - I was surprised that the Lee 356-125-2R round nose bullet (cast weight of 128 gr)was so accurate in my 1911 and EAA Witness (CZ75 copy) 9's. Same for the Lee 356-120 TC (not TL). Have you tried any cast bullets larger than .356 ? Try 357 and see if the chamber will accept that size, if so, then load some to see the results. Some folks have had to go to 358 size. I have also noted that 9mm likes a CB harder than wheelweight alloy but it doesn't have to be real hard, for my guns.

[shootingbuff]

Wanting better accuracy? Moved to a hotter load. Sorting brass. pulling hair out by the handful ......

never found sorting brass by head stamp to make a difference at normal handgun ranges. Biggest thing I find with handgun is when I have to roll crimp. Then once in a while I will trim the brass back to a uniform length.

Heck I stopped cleaning primer pockets yrs ago as well. Shoot enough and you will find These things out. Biggest thing for Glock is change your sights. I would recommend Dawson target for a rear with the thinnest front sight they have non fiber for accuracy and not speed. Next is to shoot enough to get used to the trigger, learn to stack the trigger and lastly a trigger job if after a few thousand dedicated groups you think you need one.

My SD is normally around single digits if not single digits for my cruddy match pistol ammo for the action pistol matches I shoot. I do use VV320 and a Redding Comp. seating die and Fed sm pistol primers though WSPs over the chrony performed the same.

Seems to me Glocks shoot 124 and 147 gr bullets better than 115. Like I stated just me.

[BarryinIN]

Now that's one really nice looking gun. With the 1911 being replicated umpteen times, are there any modern clones of the P210?

They are making P210s again. They are taking orders here:
http://www.rocosystem.com/SIGP210Legendfixedsight/
For $2,055.

[Mack Heath]

No,no,no rifle primers in pistol cases ever! High primers case slam fires. Rifle primers are taller than pistol primers.

Just a small correction here. Small Rifle Primers are not taller that the Small Pistol Primers. They have the same dimensions.

Large Rifle Primers are a different story. If you think back, when the .500 S&W came out they had a problem with cases from different eras having different depth primer pockets because the earliest ones we set up for Large Pistol primers and then the later cases were spec'ed for Large Rifle primers.

[Harter66]

Always exceptions to the rules this op is new to reloading and casting . If it was me there'd be an batfe guy on the range when it all went to **** and I got the slame fire clip dumper.

Let's say he gets by with swapping sr with sp this time and runs short and puts sp in a full tilt 223 or subs lr for lp in a 45 or a 10mm , best to err on the side of caution and not advise it at all.

[Dannix]

Sorting brass. pulling hair out by the handful ......
No kidding. Unfortunately I had to sort this brass. I'm not sure were the seller (from a member here or another forum) got them from, but I've never seen such case diversity, be it in headstamps or case that had clearly been pushed to the max.

I've learned my lesson: It will cost me a good bit more, but sources like starreloader (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=100100) are worth it.

[Dannix]

Well at long last here's some results. I tried Sillouette and AA#7, both with headstamp and case length sorted brass, and some Universal loads I had on hand with unsorted Speer/Federal/Win brass. Again, this with my remnant cache of Precision Delta 115gr RNFMJ and my bone-stock Glock nineteen. I decided to save WSF and Unique for future boolit loads.


First, here's my benchmark. This is with Winchester White Box (WWB) 9x19mm at either 15yrds or 20yrds. I'm pretty sure 15yrds. Let it also be known though that I was a fairly new shot when I shot this group.
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/9930/wwb15yrd.th.jpg (http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/9930/wwb15yrd.jpg)


Unviversal loads were with Federal small pistol primers, and the rest with Tula small pistol primers. (There was something neat about shooting Russian primers. Did we win the cold war or what). All groups shoot at 15 yrds. Let me also explain my powder charging methodology. I throw ten times and weigh. Then charge cases. Then throw ten times and weigh. So that's why you'll see numbers like 48.8/48.8gr, or sometimes I'll just move over the decimal point and you'll see 4.88/4.88.

I got WWB-like groups, but a bit tighter, with Universal 48.8/48.8gr / 10throws @ 1.121-1.123 OAL with unsorted brass. Got a bit tighter still with one of the loads I enjoyed the most: a cream puff, Lee-minimum AA#7, 79.1/79.1gr, .7450-.7460 Win brass, 1.095OAL.


But here's the best result. The hottest Sillouette load tried, go figure. 15yrds.
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/7750/sillouette15yrdbestbuth.th.jpg (http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/7750/sillouette15yrdbestbuth.jpg)


Now I'm going to load up some of the loads I liked best in bulk, without case length sorting but still with headstamp sorted brass, and see how much I still like the loads.

[Doble Troble]

The Lee 105 gr SWC sized to 0.357 has been the most accurate bullet in my 9 mm adventures. It'll make ragged holes at 15 yds off a rest. My load is 5.0 gr Unique, OAL = 1.033-ish, lubed with BAC, it just makes USPSA minor. This feeds in my 1911 out of Wilson 10-round mags 100% if the extractor channel is clean. Extractor problems start after about 500 rounds. The bore of this gun is 0.355.