Hello and about to cast for the frist time

[brnomauser]

This is my first post here, but I’ve been reading others’ for quite a while now and feel I know almost enough to start casting – it really is a goldmine this forum!

I’ll start by saying I want to cast small game hunting bullets (or is that rude – is it boolits?) and serious plinking/casual target shooting rounds for my 243. By the way – I shoot a 243 not because I love it (although it is certainly doing the job) but because the firearms laws are very very strict here and it’s hard to get anything else.

Rifle is a new (1 year ago) Brno BO98 (that’s a factory Brno 98 sporter) with a 22” 1:10 barrel. My mold is a NOS Lyman 245496 85gr IIRC.

I’m on a real budget (one of the many reasons I want to cast), so have gone for a Lee sizing die so I don’t have to buy a lube-sizer (yet…). If it sizers too much I plan on polishing it out a touch. I'll start with Alox lube. The rest I have and am about to make.

They may be cheap, but I like to make everything I can (I’m sure that’s familiar to a lot of casters). I started with a ladle. Not perfect maybe, but was easy and I’ll make another if I need to improve on it.
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee33/harrygrey382/P1000747.jpg

Then the handles, slightly more complex but after getting them set up right they work very nicely – mold comes together with a perfect click and meats precisely all around. It also has no play between either mold half on the handle’s ‘arms’.
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee33/harrygrey382/P1000749.jpg
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee33/harrygrey382/P1000748.jpg

Next is the pot - I'll cut the bottom off a small gas cylinder. I'll mount it over my forge, and either vary the height or use the fan on/off switch for temperature control. If it's not viable I'll use the Burmos pressure stove I'm about to restore. I've bought 2lbs of this - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170582413419&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
I will smelt my own once I've got the hang of casting.


Now the real reason I'm posting... After a lot of reading I'm still not sure about the pouring technique, I've also tried to find some first-timer tutorials and most don't go into much detail here. Can anyone run me through pouring rate/technique etc.? I think I understand about spotting for mold temperature problems, and am aware I shouldn't go too hot on the forge for my own health's sake.

Also, with that lead I bought (he calls it 20:1), Should I drop it straight from the mold into a bucket of water? Will that give me a suitable hardness for my uses? I will start without gas checks, driving it real slow and see how my rifle likes it. Is Trail Boss good here or is something else better? For later - What's a good powder for getting the most from cast pills out of a 243 with a gas check? Sub sonic would be nice even as we are allowed silencers here so would be good for rabbits, and my ears.

Then after I've got a few good pills I can start on the gas checks. I will make a check forming die and mandrel. Probably using boxwood as the main body with steel inserts for the working surfaces. Should they be a tight fit or will the lee die crimp loose ones on? I was planning on starting by using annealed 22wmr brass as the GC material - would this work? If not I'll try other sources...

Many thanks for any help, especially if you made it through my introductory essay!

[NSP64]

Welcome, sounds like you have a pretty good handle on what you're doing . nothing wrong with doing it as cheap as you can . pouring boolits is a "feel" thing. You will have to pour some and practice. I don't shoot a .243 so I can't help you with load data. Have you slugged the barrel yet? Where do you live?

[geargnasher]

[snipped]
Now the real reason I'm posting... After a lot of reading I'm still not sure about the pouring technique, I've also tried to find some first-timer tutorials and most don't go into much detail here. Can anyone run me through pouring rate/technique etc.? I think I understand about spotting for mold temperature problems, and am aware I shouldn't go too hot on the forge for my own health's sake.

Also, with that lead I bought (he calls it 20:1), Should I drop it straight from the mold into a bucket of water? Will that give me a suitable hardness for my uses? I will start without gas checks, driving it real slow and see how my rifle likes it. Is Trail Boss good here or is something else better? For later - What's a good powder for getting the most from cast pills out of a 243 with a gas check? Sub sonic would be nice even as we are allowed silencers here so would be good for rabbits, and my ears.

Then after I've got a few good pills I can start on the gas checks. I will make a check forming die and mandrel. Probably using boxwood as the main body with steel inserts for the working surfaces. Should they be a tight fit or will the lee die crimp loose ones on? I was planning on starting by using annealed 22wmr brass as the GC material - would this work? If not I'll try other sources...

Many thanks for any help, especially if you made it through my introductory essay!

I admire your ingenuity, I've done many things with makeshift, handmade tools and gotten by with the bare minimum in many cases, I think you're on the road to success. Let me contribute some pointers, since many of your questions are best answered through experience with your particular tools, you'll just have to try and see what works best.

First off, the "20:1" alloy you have may or may not be as advertised, often Ebay metal is mystery junk melted down by folks who know nothing about keeping zink out, so if you have problems with it you might try something else. You'll also need more than two pounds of it to get going.

20:1 is 5% tin, and will not water-harden or heat treat at all. A percentage of antimony is required for lead alloys to be temperature hardened or tempered.

20:1 should work at very low velocities, like under 1400 feet per second would be my guess. For subsonic velocities like you mention it would be perfect.

You don't have to have gas checks if you work within the limits of the alloy you have and the boolits fit the barrel. Accuracy won't be as good, but you can shoot gas-check boolits without the check just fine most of the time. I've found that a small tuft of Dacron (the white, synthetic, non-matting fiberfill stuffing found in many pillows and blankets or at a sewing store) stuffed in the case to fill the space between the powder and boolit base will help an un-checked boolit shoot better. Just be carefull with the Dacron if you use it, DON'T pack it down against the powder, and don't use too much. Just a fluffy tuft used at about 1/2 grain per CC of volume. Dacron will eventually fill up a supressor, so it might not be the best for suppressed use.

For what you're talking about using the loads for, Trail Boss might be just perfect, others with more experience with TB can give you a better idea. I would try a fast pistol powder of some sort, maybe Red Dot or even Unique if it were me, but TB will take up more room in the case, ignites really well at low pressure, and is designed for low-pressure, low velocity loads like what you propose. If you use TB you likely won't have room in the case for Dacron filler since TB is designed to be bulky and replace small charges of fast powder in large cases.

As for pouring technique, your mould will have to tell you that. In my experience, small caliber moulds like ladle pouring, but respond best to the Rowel type ladles that have a spout on them so you can mate it to the sprue plate well and pressure cast using gravity to force lead into the mould.

Preheat your mould by placing the bottom (blocks CLOSED!) in your melted lead in the casting pot. When the lead no longer sticks to the blocks when you pull it out, it's hot enough to try casting. Your first few boolits will likely be wrinkled and rounded, keep casting as fast as you can until they fill out and get sharp edges. You can cut the sprue as soon as it sets, you don't have to wait until it gets hard and has to be hit with a mallet. I open my spure plates with a gloved thumb once the mould is up to temperature. The first few pours will harden the sprue in a a second or two and you will probably need to hit the plate with a mallet to cut them, but they will stay softer longer as the sprue plate gets hot. The boolit bases will also fill out and be sharp when the sprue plate is hot. If you shoot these without gas checks, pay particular attention to the condition of the bottom driving band when casting, you want it very crisp and even since it's the last thing to break the gas seal upon muzzle exit, and its condition is critical to accuracy.

The only other question I have is lube. You don't mention what you plan on lubricating those boolits with, but you will need something. There are many different things you can make that will work, and different techniques for applying them. You might go to the lube forum here and check out some of the postings there for ideas.

I can still see I need to address alloy maintenance, reducing the oxides, pan lubing, case mouth expansion/bellmouthing, decoppering the barrel of the gun, seating depth, et cetera, but I have to go, to be continued......

Hope this helps,

Gear

[brnomauser]

Thanks. I guess the trying and getting the feel is hard to beat. I slugged the barrel, it came out at 244 - some as the ID of a fired case. I was going to try a few unsized (so long as they're not ovcer 245 right?) and a few sized at what it comes out as. Then go from there depending on the results.

Also, if it shoots accurately at low pressure/velocity (i.e. without GC) will it necessarily shoot well at higher pressure/velocity with GC?

[runfiverun]

speed is the trying factor with lead alloys.
the boolit trys to keep moving forward and will strip the rifling because the alloy is incapable of grabbing the rifling and spinning.
a slower twist rate bbl helps immensely here as does a harder alloy, or a manipulated alloy
requiring antimony and a little arsenic helps too.
your load of powder and ignition characteristics will help the boolit get started correctly.
now once you over come this problem.
you still need the boolit lube to be able to keep up with the pressure demands placed on it.
a square base helps it leave the bbl at its best chance for straight flight.
and any voids in the castng will affect the boolit once it leaves the bbl.
it's not just a matter of ramping up the loads and using a gas check with whatever alloy you got.

[brnomauser]

I admire your ingenuity, I've done many things with makeshift, handmade tools and gotten by with the bare minimum in many cases, I think you're on the road to success. Let me contribute some pointers, since many of your questions are best answered through experience with your particular tools, you'll just have to try and see what works best.

First off, the "20:1" alloy you have may or may not be as advertised, often Ebay metal is mystery junk melted down by folks who know nothing about keeping zink out, so if you have problems with it you might try something else. You'll also need more than two pounds of it to get going.

20:1 is 5% tin, and will not water-harden or heat treat at all. A percentage of antimony is required for lead alloys to be temperature hardened or tempered.

20:1 should work at very low velocities, like under 1400 feet per second would be my guess. For subsonic velocities like you mention it would be perfect.

You don't have to have gas checks if you work within the limits of the alloy you have and the boolits fit the barrel. Accuracy won't be as good, but you can shoot gas-check boolits without the check just fine most of the time. I've found that a small tuft of Dacron (the white, synthetic, non-matting fiberfill stuffing found in many pillows and blankets or at a sewing store) stuffed in the case to fill the space between the powder and boolit base will help an un-checked boolit shoot better. Just be carefull with the Dacron if you use it, DON'T pack it down against the powder, and don't use too much. Just a fluffy tuft used at about 1/2 grain per CC of volume. Dacron will eventually fill up a supressor, so it might not be the best for suppressed use.

For what you're talking about using the loads for, Trail Boss might be just perfect, others with more experience with TB can give you a better idea. I would try a fast pistol powder of some sort, maybe Red Dot or even Unique if it were me, but TB will take up more room in the case, ignites really well at low pressure, and is designed for low-pressure, low velocity loads like what you propose. If you use TB you likely won't have room in the case for Dacron filler since TB is designed to be bulky and replace small charges of fast powder in large cases.

As for pouring technique, your mould will have to tell you that. In my experience, small caliber moulds like ladle pouring, but respond best to the Rowel type ladles that have a spout on them so you can mate it to the sprue plate well and pressure cast using gravity to force lead into the mould.

Preheat your mould by placing the bottom (blocks CLOSED!) in your melted lead in the casting pot. When the lead no longer sticks to the blocks when you pull it out, it's hot enough to try casting. Your first few boolits will likely be wrinkled and rounded, keep casting as fast as you can until they fill out and get sharp edges. You can cut the sprue as soon as it sets, you don't have to wait until it gets hard and has to be hit with a mallet. I open my spure plates with a gloved thumb once the mould is up to temperature. The first few pours will harden the sprue in a a second or two and you will probably need to hit the plate with a mallet to cut them, but they will stay softer longer as the sprue plate gets hot. The boolit bases will also fill out and be sharp when the sprue plate is hot. If you shoot these without gas checks, pay particular attention to the condition of the bottom driving band when casting, you want it very crisp and even since it's the last thing to break the gas seal upon muzzle exit, and its condition is critical to accuracy.

The only other question I have is lube. You don't mention what you plan on lubricating those boolits with, but you will need something. There are many different things you can make that will work, and different techniques for applying them. You might go to the lube forum here and check out some of the postings there for ideas.

I can still see I need to address alloy maintenance, reducing the oxides, pan lubing, case mouth expansion/bellmouthing, decoppering the barrel of the gun, seating depth, et cetera, but I have to go, to be continued......

Hope this helps,

Gear
you got that one out while I was still typing!
I know it always seems like this - but the seller is a friendly bloke that's ready with casting advice. I thought he seems honest... ALso, he says it's .22% antimony - is this enough to help with hardening?

I was thinking of going without GC only until I had some good bases to measure and fit the checks to, and also for subsonic loads. I am planning on some more serious loads which would be gas checked. Thanks for the tips though, they were exactly what I was after!

I got a bottle of Alox with the Lee sizer, so was going to see how that went. Question is - lube before or after sizing. Or both? Also is this lube good for higher velocity loads like what I'll be wanting with good GC rounds?


speed is the trying factor with lead alloys.
the boolit trys to keep moving forward and will strip the rifling because the alloy is incapable of grabbing the rifling and spinning.
a slower twist rate bbl helps immensely here as does a harder alloy, or a manipulated alloy
requiring antimony and a little arsenic helps too.
your load of powder and ignition characteristics will help the boolit get started correctly.
now once you over come this problem.
you still need the boolit lube to be able to keep up with the pressure demands placed on it.
a square base helps it leave the bbl at its best chance for straight flight.
and any voids in the castng will affect the boolit once it leaves the bbl.
it's not just a matter of ramping up the loads and using a gas check with whatever alloy you got.
I realise there is an enormous number of variables behind it. But I do want to start off in the right direction - is the 0.22% ANTIMONY and 0.21% BISMUTH of my alloy in the ball park? What about water quenching?

[runfiverun]

your alloy should be about 14 bhn.
i don't think waterdropping will help it.
i'd make some boolits and see where you stand size wise from the mold,
and how the alloy works for you.

[stubert]

How fast are you looking to shoot? A soft boolit, without a check, at high velocity, with alox? Get the 3'rd edition Lyman cast book and read it, You'll save yourself alot of headaches.

[onondaga]

I tumble lube before and after sizing. I have gotten sore arms trying to size bullets that aren't lubed. Some people say it is no problem for them but if you are sizing .002" of more is is pretty hard with no lube and your die will also lead up. The Lee liquid Alox takes so very long to dry (over night) That I tried a mix from members here and love it. 45% LLA + 45% Johnsons Paste Wax + 10% mineral spirits.. I melt the wax gently in a pan, add the LLA and stir, remove from heat and add the spirits and stir. You apply it the same way but it dries in 5 minutes or you can even put bullets directly through the sizer when wet. Then I tumble them again after sizing and gas checking with the Lee die and dry.

This lube is every bit as good as straight LLA and better in that it is not sticky after drying and it is not such an ugly poop brown color either. I have used this lube at velocities of 2500 fps with BHN 21 Alloy gas checked 150 gr. flat nose boolits in my .308 Winchester. My bullets are sized +.002 over groove to groove bore diameter. Zero leading and <1 inch groups at 50 yards out of a very old Sako Sporter.

Gary

[Wayne Smith]

Any oil, wax or even soap is adequate lube for sizing. You don't have to use the LLA but do use something compatable with it. You sound like you are capable of making much of what you need, are you capable of making a Lee type sizer? If not Buckshot can supply any size you need.

I make this point because Fit is King with cast boolits.

[brnomauser]

How fast are you looking to shoot? A soft boolit, without a check, at high velocity, with alox? Get the 3'rd edition Lyman cast book and read it, You'll save yourself alot of headaches.
Sub sonic without GC. As fast as possible without leading while keeping a good accuracy will do with the GC loads. Are you sayig Alox is not good for faster loads?

I tumble lube before and after sizing. I have gotten sore arms trying to size bullets that aren't lubed. Some people say it is no problem for them but if you are sizing .002" of more is is pretty hard with no lube and your die will also lead up. The Lee liquid Alox takes so very long to dry (over night) That I tried a mix from members here and love it. 45% LLA + 45% Johnsons Paste Wax + 10% mineral spirits.. I melt the wax gently in a pan, add the LLA and stir, remove from heat and add the spirits and stir. You apply it the same way but it dries in 5 minutes or you can even put bullets directly through the sizer when wet. Then I tumble them again after sizing and gas checking with the Lee die and dry.

This lube is every bit as good as straight LLA and better in that it is not sticky after drying and it is not such an ugly poop brown color either. I have used this lube at velocities of 2500 fps with BHN 21 Alloy gas checked 150 gr. flat nose boolits in my .308 Winchester. My bullets are sized +.002 over groove to groove bore diameter. Zero leading and <1 inch groups at 50 yards out of a very old Sako Sporter.

Gary
Thanks for the lube tips, might give it a go. How fast would you push neat Alox lubed pills? I'm not so fussed about the drying time, but staying sticky for ever would be a pain. What do you tumble them in? My case tumbler may be a bit violent for lead ;)


Any oil, wax or even soap is adequate lube for sizing. You don't have to use the LLA but do use something compatable with it. You sound like you are capable of making much of what you need, are you capable of making a Lee type sizer? If not Buckshot can supply any size you need.

I make this point because Fit is King with cast boolits.
I would love to make a sizer, but don't have a lathe. Otherwise I'd be cranking everything out, including swaging dies... I'm hoping I can hone/polish my lee sizer out for a good fit

[runfiverun]

swirl them in a plastic cup,a butter container, some guy's use a heavy guage plastic sandwich bag, what have you.
i'd go with the 45/45/10 over alox myself.
opening a lee sizer is easy enough, a dowell with a slit cut in it some wet dry sand paper a bit of oil and run up and down your leg.
finer grits [6-800-1,000] and measure as you go.