fill'er up?

[XWrench3]

so, i decided to try using a filler in my reduced loads. it is not the most enjoyable part of loading that is for sure, but IF it helps the accuracy, then i will give it a whirl. i am finding it tough to get what i think is the same amount in each shell, is it important? also, this stuff (just bulk polyester stuffing) is kind of a pain to stuff into bottle neck cases. is there something easier? i would think by now, if a company was on the stick, someone would offer a "yarn" type of this that would unravel over a period of a couple of days and fill the case. it would be a lot easier to get into a case to begin with, and it would allow at least close to the same amount in each shell.

[Jim]

X,
You wanna share some details on what you're doing? Caliber, powder choice and charge weight, boolit weight, that sort of stuff. Just how much filler are you "stuffing" in the cases? Polyester has a use in this application, but there is a limit to how much of it you should have in the case.

[XWrench3]

well, i figured i would use it in my 45/70 and in my 300 win mag (the win mag is what is currently on the bench) i have 170g cast boolits, and several powders to try. bullseye, sr-4759, aa#2, and i want to try some benchmark in it as well. the 45/70 will be with the same powders, but using a cast lee 340g pill.

[XWrench3]

as far as how much filler, i have filled 9 cases up to the neck with roughly a cotton ball size of "puff" of the filler. it is not tightly packed, and does not come back out on its own, but there is some resistance to it when i push down on it with a flat pencil.

[Larry Gibson]

XWrench3

I have for many, many years found dacron (polyester fill) to be the best "filler".

I don't use the dacron filler or a wad with the fast to medium burning "fast" pistol /shotgun type powders. I find one of these fast burning powders that is fast enough to ignite and burn efficiently at the velocity I want and avoid using a filler with them.

I almost always use the dacron filler in rifle cases with the slower “fast” burning powders (4227, 4759, 5744, 4198, etc.), the medium burning powders (RL7, 3031, 4895, etc.) up through the slow burning powders (RL19, AA4350, H4831SC, RL22, 3100, etc.) that give around 80% or less loading density. The dacron filler is used only between the powder and base of the bullet.

The “dacron” is polyester fill as commonly found in pillows and toys. It also comes in sheets called “batting”. It can be obtained very reasonably at most any fabric store.

The dacron batting comes in various thicknesses. I prefer that which is about 5/8" thick. My wife recently bought me 10 yards which will give many, many thousands of cast bullet loads. With this current batch of batting I cut it initially across the width into strips about 3/4" wide. I then "eyeball" cut 1/2" wide chunks which is close to 3/4 gr.

A smaller chunk is cut for 1/2 gr and larger for a larger amount. I've cut some chunks that weight 1/2, 3/4, 1, 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 grs and have them in a "snack" baggie stuck on a poster board above my loading bench for quick reference when I need to cut new chunks. The batting will run thin and thick throughout the sheet so I again just "eyeball it" based on the thickness of the batting when cutting the chunks.

Pretty extensive tests have demonstrated that the weight of the filler does not have to be exact, only close. What is important is that there is enough so that it “fills" the space between powder and bullet. A little too much hurts nothing but too little poses problems. That's why I have the different size "chunks" so I can use the right size for the case capacity I am filling. For example; with most medium burning powders (3031, 4895, 4064) in and '06 to function an M1 a 3/4 gr dacron filler is about right. With slower powders that give a higher loading density like 4831 a 1/2 gr filler is about right.

I use a section of .22 cal cleaning rod in cartridges of .30 - .375 cal to push the Dacron chunk inside the case just so it is all in. The 6 to 10" section gives plenty to hold onto and sufficient "feel". Merely hold the chunk of dacron over the case mouth and shove it in with the rod. Sometimes it takes a couple three pokes to ensure all is inside the case mouth. I poke the chunks in until the are at the bottom of the neck or at least all in the case. It doesn’t matter. What you want is to let the base of the bullet finish pushing it down and adding any compression. Thus I do not push it down on the powder but let the bullet do that when the bullet is seated. Using the right size chunk of dacron this method then provides a "filler" in the air space between the powder and base of the bullet.

A small length of coat hanger works for the .22-7mm cartridges and an unsharpened pencil works well for .45 cals.

Larry Gibson

[XWrench3]

thanks Larry. i will try picking up a peice of batting, and hopefully, that will work easier. i am sure we can find a use for this someplace apound the house, and if i can not, it was only 2 bucks and change. so it certainly will not break me. also, thanks for the rest of the info. i will try the tools you mentioned. all of it will be a help.

[Jim]

Larry,
Good job there, Buddy!

[prs]

Excellent Larry! I have never used filler with smokeless propellant, but if if the occasion arises, I have some foundation now. I know that my intuition on this has to be wrong, but I have wondered if the polyester tends to melt and foul the barrel. To me, it seems as if it would, but evidently not?

I do use filler with some black powder cartridge loads and when doing so, I use Quaker Quick Grits. That product flows through a powder measure very well, has low moisture content, and compresses to made a nice firm wad over the powder without mixing. Unlike cornmeal, which is a popular BP filler, the QQ Grits seem to stay in the cases while being used on a pogressive press and thus don't jamb the primer system and such.

prs

[looseprojectile]

That's the way I have done it. A card wad is helpfull in some loads with plain base boolits.
Now to the reason for filler. I can imagine a case with a lot of room inside with a small amount of powder just slopping around in there.
When the primer fires it scatters this small amount of powder much like a tornado would on a larger scale. That would make it harder for the flame to progress from one grain to the next.
In that case it would tend to ignite at a different rate in each cartridge. The filler would keep the powder from laying flat in the case and get blown around.
The filler insures that the powder is maintained at the same place at the bottom of the case for consistancy.
In my opinion more filler is better than too little.
One time after I loaded some 45 70 ammo with a lot of filler I was shooting them at the range in a trapdoor and had a guy ask What are you shooting in that thing? It seems that a cloud of filler filled the sky when I shot. Probably that much dacron fluff is not necessary.
I have never seen any indication that dacron fluff melts or stays in the gun.

Life is good

[zomby woof]

I have followed Larry's advice and have had great success. I only differ my technique slightly. With my 16 grain load for my 6.5X55 cartridge, I cut small squares out of 10oz batt (.7-.8 grain). With my 41.5 grain load in my 30.06, I use small square of 8 oz batt (.4-.5grain) I install with straight tweezers fluffing as I insert into the case.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCN04121.JPG

[LouNC]

..........Now to the reason for filler. I can imagine a case with a lot of room inside with a small amount of powder just slopping around in there.
When the primer fires it scatters this small amount of powder much like a tornado would on a larger scale. That would make it harder for the flame to progress from one grain to the next.
In that case it would tend to ignite at a different rate in each cartridge. The filler would keep the powder from laying flat in the case and get blown around.
The filler insures that the powder is maintained at the same place at the bottom of the case for consistancy.............


I agree with the fact that the powder would be maintained at the same place in the bottom of the case if a filler is used. But the rest of this quote is actually a hypothesis for what is actually going in inside the case. It may be true, it may not.

In the interest of a more scientific approach, have you (or anyone else here on the forum) actually chronographed loads with and without fillers, and compared velocity spread, standard deviation, etc?

Not intending to criticize or flame here, but this topic has always interested me and I was just wondering whether anyone has any quantitative results based on experimentation with and without the filler material?

Lou

[Larry Gibson]

LouNC

"......In the interest of a more scientific approach, have you (or anyone else here on the forum) actually chronographed loads with and without fillers, and compared velocity spread, standard deviation, etc?

Not intending to criticize or flame here, but this topic has always interested me and I was just wondering whether anyone has any quantitative results based on experimentation with and without the filler material?"

Well, I'm not sure of the "quantity" but I have been using dacron as a filler since I sent my first 50 cents off to Javelina for a large wad of it to try back in the 'early '70s. The Lube wrapper used to have instructions on using dacron. I also have been using Oehler chronographs since '75 and have chronographed I don't know how many different cast bullet loads in I don't know how many different cartridges with and without the dacron. Years ago I first used it as a wad but then began using it as a filler exclusively in the late '70s. In the last couple years I've had an Oehler M43 and have been to measure velocity and pressure in 18 different cartridges.

What I have found is that with the powders and cast bullet weights I have used the dacron filler with the velocity sread (ES), the velocity SD and the Pressure variations are always better when the filler is used. Note in my previous post that I mention some cases and lay out guidelines where I do not use a filler and where I do use the filler. This is because it is not necessary with some powders powders (the faster, easily ignited powders) and ignition consistency and/or accuracy is generally not really helped by using the filler with such powders. Also if the loading density is over 80%, particularly over 85%, then the filler provides no advantage either.

However, using fillers with the powder burning rates mentoned under the criteria mentioned in my previous post I have found in testing thousands of such rounds, if not over a hundred thousand of such rounds, over the last 38 +/- years that the consistency of the internal ballistics is always improved with the use of the dacron filler vs the same load minus the filler.

I am an adement proponant of the use of the dacron filler within the guidelines I laid out in the previous post simply because it always works giving superior internal ballistics. If it doesn't work then something else is afoot.

Larry Gibson

[Jim]

Not too mention using filler eliminates the possibility of SEE with reduced charges.

[peerlesscowboy]

I agree with the fact that the powder would be maintained at the same place in the bottom of the case if a filler is used. But the rest of this quote is actually a hypothesis for what is actually going in inside the case. It may be true, it may not.

In the interest of a more scientific approach, have you (or anyone else here on the forum) actually chronographed loads with and without fillers, and compared velocity spread, standard deviation, etc?
.38-55, Ly375248, 20gr IMR4198. 1.3cc cornmeal on top of the powder and compressed by seating the bullet, five shots over the chronograph;

1572-------- Av Vel (1543)
1528------------- Hi 1572
1527------------- Lo 1527
1543------------- ES 45
1548------------- SD 18

The same load except without the filler showed around 150 fps extreme spread as I recall, I didn't bother keeping a record of those results as I considered the load unacceptable. Now, THESE results were taken by alternately raising the muzzle straight UP and smoothly bringing the gun to horizontal before firing and then on the next shot starting with the muzzle pointed straight DOWN and smoothly bringing the gun to horizontal before firing.
If I might point out, the powder in this load is about 2/3 loading density.

John C. Saubak

added comment; FWIW, with the no-filler loads the UP first shots (powder laying toward the primer) showed velocities roughly the same as the fillered loads, the DOWN first shots (powder laying toward the bullet base and away from the primer) consistently clocked the slowest.

[runfiverun]

some time ago i posted a thread about using fillers v.s. non fillered cases.
i used three different bbl lengths and the 7.65 argie case.
posting the es's and how the filler helped or not.
also the outside to outside group sizes.
i don't remember how many rounds me and little girl fired but airc it was around 150,
the thread may of been posted by runfiveslittlegirl.

[XWrench3]

Not too mention using filler eliminates the possibility of SEE with reduced charges

Jim, what is SEE ??

[white eagle]

how would shot buffer work ??
would it be somewhat the same ??

[LouNC]

Thanks guys, I definitely appreciate the education!! This forum is GREAT and I appreciate you sharing your experiences.

Lou

[nicholst55]

Jim, what is SEE ??

Secondary Explosion Effect (http://lutz-moeller-jagd.de/English/Detonation.htm)

[XWrench3]

SECONDARY EXPLOSION EFFECT, is that the same thing as "detonation?

[Larry Gibson]

SECONDARY EXPLOSION EFFECT, is that the same thing as "detonation?

No, it is quite different. SEE has been and is easily replicated in tests. the "detonation" theory is just that, still a theory.

Larry Gibson

[looseprojectile]

As usual I replied to this thread and had no proof. Just my experience.
It's good to have those of you that have the ambition and curiousity to do the testing and research to proove these things.
I appreciate the backup. I did use the word Imagine and it would only be common sense to expect a more uniform load to shoot better.
It may be my imagination that loads that don't reccomend filler shoot better with filler in a lot of instances too. Works for me.
I started out using filler to prevent SEE and now use filler if I suspect that there could be any chance of SEE or erratic pressure/velocity due to large capacity cases when using small amounts of faster powder.
In the fifties I can remember there was some talk of SEE but I don't remember if they had it nailed down to being the result of slower powder in less than full case amounts. They probably did. Since then I have used a plethora of different fillers and they all worked. I use nothing but Dacron/polyester fluff now as it works in bottle necked cases as well as straight cases.

Life is good

[turbo1889]

how would shot buffer work ??
would it be somewhat the same ??

People do use shot buffer as a filler; as well as more economical choices mainly hard, small particle, dry cereals such as cream of wheat (COW) and grits.

The use of flowing granular fillers, however, is mainly limited to straight walled, tapered wall, and very minimal shoulder cartridges. Some state that their use in large steep shoulder angle bottle neck cartridges (the small caliber, fat body, ultra short magnum cartridges being an extreme example) could be problematic if the granular filler packs and backs up at the shoulder during firing. I personally don't know if that is just an old wives tail or a real safety concern or not but that is what I have heard. Basically the rule of thumb as I know it is, that granular filler in bottle neck cartridges are a bad idea but they work great for straight wall, tapered, and other cartridges that have very little bottle neck with a very small or gentle angle shoulder.

I have personally used COW as a filler in several cartridges that fall into the category that the rule of thumb suggests that they are safe to use in and had results that were plenty good enough for me. I do like the fact that the use of such granular fillers does tend to scrub the bore and keeps things nice and clean. I have an aluminum alloy frame el-cheapo 32-S&W Long revolver that has no throat in the cylinders at all and cylinder is just bored straight through end to end at the case diameter. I load for it using 327-mag brass that has been trimmed down slightly so that it is flush with the end of the cylinder and then load it with full wad-cutters seated flush with the end of the brass using slightly reduced 32-S&W Long load data with the space between the powder and the base of the boolit filled up with COW. This puts the boolit right at the barrel cone and the COW scrubs the barrel and cone and significantly reduces the amount of gas leakage and blast at the cylinder gap. Obviously, there is a substantial improvement in accuracy as well compared to just shooting S&W Long loads in it and having the boolit rattle down the over size bore of the cylinder.

[peerlesscowboy]

Some of my favorite loads in .38-55, .45-70 consist of cornmeal compressed atop a 1/2 to 2/3 loading density charge of IMR4198. Besides holding the powder back against the primer I wonder if this cornmeal filler might also act as a sort'a gascheck buffer keeping the hot combustion gasses away from the bullet base? I run plainbase 375248 & 457193 up to 1543 fps & 1602 fps respectively without a hint of leading.

John C. Saubak

[caseyboy]

I have been using COW over Promo powder in the 303 British. I dump the COW right on top of the powder and fill to the shoulder level. The seated bullet will just slightly compress the COW/powder to keep the two from mixing. Accuracy is good and I never see any unburnt powder in the barrel. I think this makes the powder burn more consistent and complete.