2400 in the '06

[Marlin Junky]

What is the useful velocity range of Alliant 2400 behind 175-180 grain boolits in the '06? I like what I've been reading about results in the 1600-1800 fps range and I really appreciate the economic value of 2400 but I'd like to use it at up to 2000 fps while still holding on to the level of accuracy attained at the lower velocities (by HT'ing, I presume).

QuickLoad says 24 grains of 2400 will get one to 2000+ fps from a 24" barrel at the cost of 32K PSI with a 181 grain 311041. Lyman also lists 27 grains of 2400 doing 2140 fps at the expense of 34.5K CUP using a 26" barrel. Lyman's load is really pushin' the envelop for my boolit alloys, but shouldn't 32K be handled nicely by HT'd Pb/WW metal?

MJ

[onondaga]

If you are convinced that your alloy is not hard enough to handle that load, Take a close look at your slugged bore diameter to boolit diameter first. Plus .002" bullet diameter works well where you are aiming.

You can certainly get your alloy a whack harder by heat treating. There is debate about heat treating before or after sizing, so you choose on that. I put my as cast boolits in a cookie tray then into the oven. turn to 350 F. for one hour then quick dump them into a pail of ice water. That alloy of yours should go up to about 21 BHN or harder with the treatment. That hardness will handle more load pressure than you mention unless your WW + Pb alloy is too low in Antimony. In that case use straight WW instead. A hardness tester would answer the problem more accurately than relying on the name of the alloy. I broke down years ago and got the Lee hardness tester, never regretted spending the money.

Gary

[Bret4207]

MJ- FYI, I've taken straight ACWW alloy with a little added tin up around 2200 with GC designs in a few rifles with good success. They need to fit the throat pretty close. Now those were my rifles and I was using slightly slower powders IIRC, but the alloy should be workable if you can fine tune things.

[Marlin Junky]

MJ- FYI, I've taken straight ACWW alloy with a little added tin up around 2200 with GC designs in a few rifles with good success. They need to fit the throat pretty close. Now those were my rifles and I was using slightly slower powders IIRC, but the alloy should be workable if you can fine tune things.

OK... but this topic was supposed to be specifically about Alliant 2400 in the '06.

MJ

[zomby woof]

In my 03A3, I use the LEE 180 GC. I used old 2400 up to 20 grains of powder with 1700fps. I'm sticking with around 18.5 2400 for my practice load.

I tried 21 grains of 2400 with Lyman 311299 and got sideways boolits.

[HangFireW8]

MJ,

In my first foray into high speed .30-06 loads, I was pushing 2400+ fps with gas checked 311041, water dropped WW+Tin+#9 shot running 30BHN. SPG lube. Zero leading. Accuracy was meh, but may have been my undersized .309" boolits in a .310" bore, poor boolit choice (long nose), my **** sights at the time, or just not a good load. I was using surplus 4895.

I have since slugged the bore, purchased a .311 sizer die, put a scope on the rifle, and will be retrying soon. I got a ragged 50 yard one-hole group with "the load" and Lee bore riding boolits water dropped, so there is promise that a good load can be found for the 311041.

Heat treating is probably the hot ticket (get it?) to the most consistent boolits, but I have found good consistent BHN by using good casting practices- don't start water dropping your boolits until melt and mold temps are stable.

-HF

[Marlin Junky]

I got a ragged 50 yard one-hole group with "the load" and Lee bore riding boolits water dropped, so there is promise that a good load can be found for the 311041.

-HF

HangFireW8,

Lyman 311041, RCBS 30-165-SIL, a few of the Lee boolits (309-160, 312-155 & 312-185) and possibly BRP's 311041 (haven't bought the mold yet) are the designs I feel show the most promise; however 2000 fps is all I'm looking for and I'd like to do that (at 1MOA) with Alliant 2400.

MJ

[nanuk]

MJ, do you feel a 150-165gr boolit at 2000fps is adequate WT deer load?

[NHlever]

Alliant 2400 will give you that velocity from a 30-06. (The new Lyman book goes up to 2100+ fps with that powder) The 1 MOA is a lot easier to write about than it is to actually do on a regular basis. You can be assured that if you get that, all of your ducks are in a row. It is certainly easier to do it these days with all we have learned, and the products that are available so it is a worthy goal. By all accounts, that boolit at that velocity is plenty for whitetails.

[Marlin Junky]

I'm sure A2400 will get me to 2000 fps but I'm wondering if I'd be better off with 4759 or 4227... or 4198 even. 5744 is just too darn expense.

Muzzle blast is an issue... I don't want to upset the neighbors.

MJ

[tactikel]

My '03-A3 loves 2400 with lee 160 gr rn. 16 gr gives sub moa (0.45" groups at 50 yards). 18 gr is less accurate (and certainly less than 2000 fps). Don't forget Reloader 7 -it can be very accurate and has much lower pressure levels than many faster powders-with very good velocity. It is not as accurate as 2400 but yields much more velocity.

[462]

For what it's worth, 20.0 grains of 2400, an RCBS 30-180-SP and my '03-A3 are excellent matches.

[rintinglen]

My old 03 sporter will shoot a 311-467 into an 1 1/2 on occasion using 22.5 grains of 2400. It won't shoot anything else better. I have tried it hotter--I think as high as 25 grains, but accuracy falls off a bit. Heat treated boolits are plenty strong for these loads--provided you size, then heat. Dennis Marshall, an engineer with an extensive knowledge of lead metallurgy, came up with the Idea years ago and wrote pieces extolling the virtue of heat treated boolits in both the Lyman 3rd edition Cast Bullet Hand Book andRCBS's Cast Bullet book. I have done many, many thousands of bullets with very good results, much more consistent than water dropping, at least in my practice.

[Marlin Junky]

For what it's worth, 20.0 grains of 2400, an RCBS 30-180-SP and my '03-A3 are excellent matches.

What's the as-cast or ready-to-fly weight of RCBS 30-180-SP in your alloy (please specify your alloy)? I'm guessing the velocity of that load is just about 1800 fps assuming Alliant 2400.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

My old 03 sporter will shoot a 311-467 into an 1 1/2 on occasion using 22.5 grains of 2400. It won't shoot anything else better. I have tried it hotter--I think as high as 25 grains, but accuracy falls off a bit. Heat treated boolits are plenty strong for these loads--provided you size, then heat. Dennis Marshall, an engineer with an extensive knowledge of lead metallurgy, came up with the Idea years ago and wrote pieces extolling the virtue of heat treated boolits in both the Lyman 3rd edition Cast Bullet Hand Book andRCBS's Cast Bullet book. I have done many, many thousands of bullets with very good results, much more consistent than water dropping, at least in my practice.

Is that H2400 or A2400 and what's the velocity of 311467 in your alloy (boolit weight too, please)?

I usually heat treat and then size either within 24 hours or in steps if the finished diameter is more that about .001" under the as-cast diameter. I prefer sizing with the gas check in place because it helps align the boolit in the sizing die (Lyman 450). Also, heat treating with a quench (to harden vs. air cooling to anneal) checked boolits has always created a loose gas check in my experience.

MJ

[RU shooter]

What is the useful velocity range of Alliant 2400 behind 175-180 grain boolits in the '06? I like what I've been reading about results in the 1600-1800 fps range and I really appreciate the economic value of 2400 but I'd like to use it at up to 2000 fps while still holding on to the level of accuracy attained at the lower velocities (by HT'ing, I presume).

QuickLoad says 24 grains of 2400 will get one to 2000+ fps from a 24" barrel at the cost of 32K PSI with a 181 grain 311041. Lyman also lists 27 grains of 2400 doing 2140 fps at the expense of 34.5K CUP using a 26" barrel. Lyman's load is really pushin' the envelop for my boolit alloys, but shouldn't 32K be handled nicely by HT'd Pb/WW metal?

MJ
I to use 2400 with good results but not at those levels.But if your goal is 2000+ fps. Why 2400? There have been many post telling the virtues of the slower 50 cal /20mm powders using a full case and getting fine accuracy in that speed range. Not trying to change your mind ,I just have not seen too many threads about high vel shooting with 2400 with success .

Tim

[462]

What's the as-cast or ready-to-fly weight of RCBS 30-180-SP in your alloy (please specify your alloy)? I'm guessing the velocity of that load is just about 1800 fps assuming Alliant 2400.

MJ

Yes, sir, it is Alliant 2400.

Cast of water-quenched wheel weights, boolits weigh 188/189-grains, and checked and lubed 190/191-grains.

I've cast a batch of air-cooled wheel weights but have yet to load them. Another of many projects waiting their turn to be at the top of the priority list.

I do not own nor have access to a chronograph.

A previous owner sporterized the rifle -- installed a Bishop stock, removed the sights, and drilled and tapped for a scope mount. I mounted a scope and installed a Timney trigger.

[excess650]

MJ,
I'm not currently shooting 2400, but am shooting water dropped alloy that seems to fall between Lyman #2 and old Linotype (18-20bhn) according to my Cabinetree tester. In the '06 and identical case capacity 7.5x55 I'm using 29-30gr H322 and 29gr old AA5744 under 200gr boolits for an estimated 2000-2100fps. These are the most accurate loads that I've found for my rifles with heavy boolits and high enough velocity to relaibly knock over 47# steel rams at 500m.

The point is that your boolits don't have to be harder than lino to work at 2Kfps. I started low and worked up 1gr at a time monitoring group size and bore condition. You WILL know when you've exceeded you're alloy's limits as it will be obvious on your targets. My suggestion is to back off several grains from that point to where the accuracy was very good and can be maintained for long strings of shots, without cleaning, etc.

Start with a good lube known to be capable of the desired results at your velocity level and higher. Make sure your boolit fits well, and seat to kiss the rifling. Use a single headstamp of cases, preferably all the same lot. Use a single brand and type of primer for your tests (I'm using F210 or F210M). Load ammo and go shoot! Make notes and repeat! Don't make multiples of changes at the same time, and clean between strings if changing lube. It may take several shots for the bore condition to stabilize after cleaning, so keep that in mind.

Develop THE load for YOUR rifle. What works in mine may not work in yours. 2400 may work for you at the desired level, but there is no way to know without trying.

[Marlin Junky]

Cast of water-quenched wheel weights, boolits weigh 188/189-grains, and checked and lubed 190/191-grains.

Thanks for the reply. With a boolit of that weight your probably doing somewhat less than 1800 fps using 20 grains of A2400.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

I to use 2400 with good results but not at those levels.But if your goal is 2000+ fps.

My goal is to approach or equal 2000 fps... I don't need to exceed it.



Why 2400?

To minimize muzzle blast and save money. If I can't do it accurately, perhaps I need to look at 4227 as an alternative. I've still got a bit of 4759 remaining for a few more tests but it hasn't been teaching me a whole lot lately because I'm struggling with my '06's accuracy issues.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

The point is that your boolits don't have to be harder than lino to work at 2Kfps.

Yeah, if the barrel is in good shape and the boolit fits the throat, 2200 fps or better is possible with WW metal. Heck if the barrel was made by Marlin 60 years ago and it was cared for, 1.5MOA or better is possible at 2400 fps with WW metal.

I'm just going to get a jug of A2400... it won't go to waste. If I need to keep the velocity down to 1800 fps to meet my accuracy goals, I'll just have to become a better judge of distance.

MJ

[excess650]

What rifle are you shooting and how far do you want to shoot?

I've shot my K31 7.5x55 to 900 yards with iron sights. My Rem 700 30-06 ran out of scope adjustment at 700 yards, but I've since remedied that. One of my shooting buddies shoots a mildly sporterized '03 or 03A3 with a tilted base and tactical scope. We've shot it to 1000 yards with cast. The load? I don't recall his cases or primers, but 311284 over 29gr H322 and LBT Blue, not to be confused with Labatts Blue.<G>

A rangefinder, scope with repeatable adjustments, and a notebook work wonders.

[Marlin Junky]

I guess I should provide more back ground information at times but I usually try to be as brief as possible.

The goal of all this rhetoric is to select a suitable powder to develop a varmint control load (for a scoped Pre-64 M70 in 30-'06, or perhaps when funds allow, a new .308) for use on a small AG zoned tract of land that will also double as an everyday target load. The neighbors could conceivably be about 1/4 mile from the muzzle blast (on the other side of a hill and to the rear of my bench) but there are plenty of hills on and adjacent to the property for backstops. As long as no shots are taken toward the highway or our gate, no one is in danger. There may be an occasional head of cattle to the north on the state land bordering our property but I can still tell the difference between a cow and a possum, even at 150 yards. :-) This load should also be able to take meat deer on the property from a ground blind in October... unless I've made too much racket during the year with my target shooting.

MJ

[excess650]

More info needed! Bore & groove diameters? Throat diameter and length? What boolits have you tried? Longest anticipated shots?

Does that M70 have a screw up through the forend into the bottom of the barrel ala M88? Glass bedded? Free floated, pressure bedded, or?

You gonna eat them armadillers?

[1Shirt]

2400 is my primary go to powder for cast in any of my 30's inclusive of 06. Get good accuracy with anywhere between 16 and 22 gr. in O6, and have gone as high as 26, but accuracy was not quite as good as 22-24. I use fluffed dacron fill (about 1 grain) over powder put to just the base of the neck before I seat the blt. Shoot from 150-220 gr blts, and for starting loads always start with 16-17 gr. and work up with 5 cases at a time. Have chronoed a number of these loads, and on the low end have been in the 16-1700 fps range. On the high end, if memory serves me right, think I got around 2250 with a 150 lee over a high end charge. Rarely have had any trace of leading. I water drop everything, prefer frosted blts, and most of mine are a minimum of 22 bh, and most are closer to 26-28 bh. Good luck!
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[Marlin Junky]

More info needed! Bore & groove diameters?

Was .3005"-.3010" across the lands, approx. .3085" in the grooves before I started fire lapping... haven't measured it since.


Throat diameter and length?

Runs .310-311 over a very short distance, then a gradual leade to full rifling. Very wide in the neck... .340"-.341", IIRC. I remember being able to chamber a .316" boolit.


What boolits have you tried?

So far (before the fire lapping) Lee 309-160 and RCBS 30-165-SIL have produced the best results in the 1800 to 1900 fps range with 20 grains of WC-820 and 25 grains of 4198, respectively. I need to cast some more of these babies.


Longest anticipated shots?

With these type loads, 150 to 200 yards. Point blank on a 4" target should be about 130 so beyond 150, I'll have to utilize aids for judging distance (basically landmarks and stuff).


Does that M70 have a screw up through the forend into the bottom of the barrel ala M88?

Yes.


Glass bedded?

No.


Free floated, pressure bedded, or?

As is came from the factory.


You gonna eat them armadillers?

Nah, too high in cholesterol... everything smaller than a deer will probably get mulched and fed to the pigs. :shock:

Perhaps I can find someone who buys coyote pelts... or I can put my wife to work tanning coyote hides and making bedspreads or something. :cool:

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

2400 is my primary go to powder for cast in any of my 30's inclusive of 06. Get good accuracy with anywhere between 16 and 22 gr. in O6, and have gone as high as 26, but accuracy was not quite as good as 22-24. I use fluffed dacron fill (about 1 grain) over powder put to just the base of the neck before I seat the blt. Shoot from 150-220 gr blts, and for starting loads always start with 16-17 gr. and work up with 5 cases at a time. Have chronoed a number of these loads, and on the low end have been in the 16-1700 fps range. On the high end, if memory serves me right, think I got around 2250 with a 150 lee over a high end charge. Rarely have had any trace of leading. I water drop everything, prefer frosted blts, and most of mine are a minimum of 22 bh, and most are closer to 26-28 bh. Good luck!
1Shirt!:coffeecom

Thank you,
MJ

[HangFireW8]

Yes.


No.


As is came from the factory.


I've never had a wood-stocked bolt action factory rifle that shot worth a darn until it was glass bedded. Some also needed a free-float, crown job, and/or trigger job.

Once I learned that, I saved so much time and money on fruitless handloading for accuracy, that I just started doing those things up front instead of waiting to see if I could find a good load first. Now, not only can I find a good load faster, I can find more of them faster, as the rifle becomes less finicky.

-HF

[Char-Gar]

2400 is my favorite cast bullet powder. However, it has been my experience that accuracy starts to fall off much after 1,800. When I go much above that I do to a slower powder. There are reasons for this but I will skip the lecture.

[Marlin Junky]

2400 is my favorite cast bullet powder. However, it has been my experience that accuracy starts to fall off much after 1,800. When I go much above that I do to a slower powder. There are reasons for this but I will skip the lecture.

Chargar,

Thank you... I'm under the impression I can see the reasons graphically in QuickLoad's pressure curve window.

So... how 'bout 4759? Will that add another 100-200 fps to my "accuracy load"?

MJ