Some Success with 2 GB Moulds

[SharpsShooter]

It was windy and cold here yesterday, but not enough to keep a friend and I from making it to the range. Shooting in between the 30-40 mile an hour gusts (Empty hard-shell gun cases were actually thrown over 10’ by the wind on two occasions.) actually produced some good results.

First up was the 32-180 group buy that I ran some time ago. I had been working with 4350 in an attempt to find an accurate hunting load of around 1900-2000fps. Making the velocity without leading was not a problem, but accuracy was just not what I wanted. My best efforts gave up 2” groups at 50yds out of my 1943 K98 with receiver sight. 100yd groups were 4-6”. Sure, you could use it for a woods gun and limit yourself to shots within the accurate range, but I knew it could do better. It had been suggested that 4198 was a good choice for the 8mm, so I dug out a can and loaded up 20 rounds to a slightly slower velocity of 1750fps. I am not sure if it was the velocity change or the powder that made the difference, but it was a very apparent after the first 3 shots at 50yds. The first two were cutting the same hole and the third opened up the group to just over ¾”. I managed to keep 5 shots in a 1 ½” group at a 100 yards and decided that was good enough for me.

Here is the actual load data. As always, use caution. What works for me might not for you.

32-180 Group Buy
Alloy: 50/50 WW/PB
Air-cooled for a weight of 193gr.
Sized .324 and seated out to engrave
Hornady GC
Remington Cases
CCI 200 Primers
IMR 4198 25gr
NASA Lube
Velocity 1750fps
Muzzle Energy 1360 ft-lbs.



The second group buy mould to get a tryout was the .461-360. My friend had recently acquired a Buffalo Classic in 45-70 and has been robbing me of every boolit type I have for that caliber. I have to say that the BC is a very accurate rifle with cast as it has digested everything we have fed it and never gone over 2” at 50yds and will do that at 100yds with several different loads that we have tried. He had spotted a pile of the group buy boolits on the bench and wanted to try some because as he put it ”It just looks like a good hunting boolit”. First results were darn impressive. 3 shots in a ragged hole with 2 more just outside those to make it less than an inch at 50yds. 100yd groups were 2” and maybe a bit under. We shot at the steel swinger with them and they rock a 40lb swinger with resounding authority. I sent him home with a box of 50, lubed and sized. He intends to use them for Deer season so hopefully I’ll have a field performance report in a couple of weeks.

Here is what we used. Again, use caution.

461-360 Group Buy
Alloy: 50/50 WW/PB
Air-cooled for a weight of 365gr.
Sized .460 and seated out to engrave
Federal Cases
Federal #215 Primers
IMR 4198 35gr
NASA Lube
Velocity 1600fps
Muzzle Energy 1990 ft-lbs.




SS

[45 2.1]

With the 8mm and that alloy, try them water dropped with a slower powder and more velocity.

[SharpsShooter]

I haven't tried the water drop yet. I was up to 42gr of 4350 which is pretty slow powderwise, but the accuracy just wasn't there. Will water quenching make enough difference to warrant running the 4350 loads again?

SS

[45 2.1]

I haven't tried the water drop yet. I was up to 42gr of 4350 which is pretty slow powderwise, but the accuracy just wasn't there. Will water quenching make enough difference to warrant running the 4350 loads again?

SS

The water dropping will skin harden the boolit and let you take the velocity up somewhere around 2100 fps with accuracy and still allow the boolit to expand like you had a jacketed hollowpoint. The boolit expands evenly and hangs together well.

[SharpsShooter]

Sounds like what I want to do.

Thanks

SS

[waksupi]

I disagree with the statement,that only the surface hardens on water quenched bullets. It is my belief, that they harden all the way through. How could it be otherwise?

[SharpsShooter]

I could not say one way or the other personally. When I want a tougher boolit, I just sparringly add linotype. For this purpose, I am simply trying to develope a reasonably stout hunting load that uses a soft boolit and does not lead. The 4350 loads that I tested did not lead at all and were on the edge of 2000fps, but groups were not within what I will accept as usable. I can take the 4198 loads to nearly 2k, but suspect it is the upper edge of the pressure envelope for my alloy blend, possibly beyond it.

SS

[45 2.1]

I disagree with the statement,that only the surface hardens on water quenched bullets. It is my belief, that they harden all the way through. How could it be otherwise?

You can disagree all you want, but the question is, have you tried it with this alloy waterdropped?

[Scrounger]

As an example of where we are these days, when I saw this topic heading, the first thought in my mind was "What are two Giga-byte Moulds?"

[trk]

I disagree with the statement,that only the surface hardens on water quenched bullets. It is my belief, that they harden all the way through. How could it be otherwise?

Interesting. I agree with you, I THINK they're hardened all the way through. But it COULD be that the RATE of cooling is faster at the outside than on the inside AND that it is different enough to make a difference. Wouldn't take much to mill off a large bullet and test at various points from surface to center to prove if there is any MEASURABLE difference.

[drinks]

I have done several comparison tests, first testing a flat nose bullet with a Cabine Tree tester, then filing a flat on the side of the same bullet and using the Lee tester.
Air cooled and water dropped ,as well as oven treated bullets have never varied more than 1BHN with either method of test.
I have used several alloys, straight wws, 1/2 and 1/2 ww and lead, ww and lt, 4-1 , 2-1 and 1-1 and wws with 1oz chilled shot per 10 lb lot.
I have no doubt the bullets are the same hardness throughout.
I am willing to exchange samples to anyone who wants to see the results.

[45 2.1]

At least three of the forum members have found what I said is true. The results come from casting technique. The hot and frothy crowd will never duplicate them though.

[Bass Ackward]

At least three of the forum members have found what I said is true. The results come from casting technique. The hot and frothy crowd will never duplicate them though.


Bob,

Maybe everyone is correct?

When I dilute ACWW by 50%, I find that it is very sensitive to temperature for obtaining a good HT. Too sensitive for me actually.

I can cook 50/50 at 400 degrees in an oven for 1 hour and see no HT hardness what so ever. While I can take ACWW and cook it at 400 degrees and douce it and have 18 BHN. And it is through and through.

So I can see where if you get the results you do as the inner core doesn't cool fast enough to harden as the sensitivity of 50/50 is reduced. Probably on larger common diameters huh? (44 / 45) So you probably do get a harder surface and a softer core.

50/50 was so hard to HT for me, that I went 70/30 for my use. Still is less brittle anyway.

So maybe bullet diameter is the key with any mix. I suppose if you got bullet diameter large enough, then someone might say ACWW doesn't HT well either.

[Powderface]

I resemble that remark!

Mike

[45 2.1]

Bob,

Maybe everyone is correct?

When I dilute ACWW by 50%, I find that it is very sensitive to temperature for obtaining a good HT. Too sensitive for me actually.

I can cook 50/50 at 400 degrees in an oven for 1 hour and see no HT hardness what so ever. While I can take ACWW and cook it at 400 degrees and douce it and have 18 BHN. And it is through and through.

So I can see where if you get the results you do as the inner core doesn't cool fast enough to harden as the sensitivity of 50/50 is reduced. Probably on larger common diameters huh? (44 / 45) So you probably do get a harder surface and a softer core.

50/50 was so hard to HT for me, that I went 70/30 for my use. Still is less brittle anyway.

So maybe bullet diameter is the key with any mix. I suppose if you got bullet diameter large enough, then someone might say ACWW doesn't HT well either.

John-
There is only a slight hardness change. Most of the time we don't water drop the large diameters because they really don't need it. The technique works for the 30 to 35 caliber range very well. Mix the 50/50, cast at less than 720 (most of the time its about 700 for me), fan cool to a grey sprue and water drop. Let cure for a week and lube in an oversize die. No muss or fuss.

[Bass Ackward]

John-
There is only a slight hardness change. Most of the time we don't water drop the large diameters because they really don't need it. The technique works for the 30 to 35 caliber range very well. Mix the 50/50, cast at less than 720 (most of the time its about 700 for me), fan cool to a grey sprue and water drop. Let cure for a week and lube in an oversize die. No muss or fuss.


Bob,

Thanks. I'll give that a try since I like to mold about the same temperature.