Is it Reasonable to Assume...?

[.458]

Been lurking here for sometime but now I have a question.

I've never cast a single boolit that wasn't meant for one of my muzzleloaders so I'm a prospective novice at this game. I like nostalgic firearms and have handloaded for years. I think lead boolits just seem to belong in old style guns. Other than for 38-Special I've never found a lead boolit that I liked shooting from any of my other guns, although I've tried many times. I load for 45-70, 357 Maximum, 44 Special, 44 Magnum and the Casull. All straight-sided, easy to load cartridges.

My first 45-70 was a Marlin 1895SS with Micro-groove rifling. Everything I bought just skipped over the rifling and wouldn't pattern better than a shotgun so I wore it out with thousands of jacketed bullets. I replaced it with a Ruger #1 in the same caliber, knowing that its rifling had deeper and wider lands. By this time "hardcast" boolits were showing up on store shelves from companies I'd never heard of and their claims were phenomenal so I tried a bunch of them. They lied.

I tried all of the major company off-the-shelf lead bullets I could for the 44 Magnum. Some would shoot OK at middle velocities but wouldn't group as well as jackets so I soon abandoned the lead idea, again.

Two days ago I took out the 44 Special and a box of Cast Performance 240g WFNPBs loaded to about 800-850 fps. They shot well enough that I figured I'd order another couple hundred and see if I could fine tune the load for accuracy. When I started cleaning the little 696 I changed my mind about that order. It was a 3-hour chore. The forcing cone was gray and the barrel lands were streaked half way to the muzzle! The cylinder throats were leaded and there was even lead smeared against a couple cylinder chambers half way to the cartridge head. I'm getting tired of this. I doubt they had these problems back before jacketed bullets were invented.

I've wanted a model 83 since one of the 3 big gun magazines did a write-up on it shortly after it hit the market, probably in 1984. Well, I just got one and it sparked that "no copper" desire I just can't seem to shake. I want a boolit I can develop a moose/elk/bear load around. This boolit must be accurate enough to print 6" or better groups at 100 yards when launched at 1200 to 1400fps. I shoot this well and I need to be the weakest link in the equation. I want this boolit to weigh about 300g and have a big sharp-edged meplat. I want penetration, not expansion and I don't want to spend more time at the cleaning bench than I spend at the shooting bench. So before I gear up for another hobby…

Is it reasonable to assume that this bullet can be cast or should I start turning brass on a lathe?

[HangFireW8]

Of course it can be cast.

The question is, what diameter?

Most of the problem you've been having is not matching lead boolit size to bore size. Micro Groove Marlin's usually need .460 boolits, though you might get away with a little smaller. The rest might be too-hard alloys, or not matching alloy hardness to powder speed. For example, driving a soft alloy too fast, or starting a hard allow too slow. Crimping or sizing the boolit in the bullet seater can also introduce fitting problem.

So, drive a pure lead slug through your Model 83, and let it tell you what size boolit it needs.

-HF

[454PB]

I agree with Hangfire. You make no mention of sizing, and I'll bet that's where you problems arise.

I cast for four different .454's (plus everything from 9mm on up), and have zero problems with accuracy or leading if the boolit fits and is properly lubed. For "all out" .454 loads, you may need a gas checked design, but anything below 1400 fps. can be done barefoot.

[geargnasher]

I'm assuming we're talking about the FA Model 83. Find out the groove and cylinder throat dimensions, then start with throat-sized boolits (assuming the throats are bigger than the groove), cast them with an alloy at least 20 BHN, gas checked, and use the same powder you would for jacketed bullets of the same weight, use a quality high-pressure lube like White Label Carnauba Red, and go to town. If the gun is dimensioned properly and your boolits are big enough, leading will not be a problem.

The only other pitfall I can think of is the WFN design in .45 can become unstable past 80 yards depending on twist and velocity, so a SWC design might do better at long range and still kill very well in a non-expanding format.

Gear

[waksupi]

Many commercial bullets will be too small, and too hard for most guns. They try to be all things to all people, and generally fail. As has been said, you need to know the size you actually need, and not trust the labeling on the boxes, unless you take a micrometer with you to buy them.

[Tazman1602]

Like the boys said 458, it's GOT to be a sizing issue. I've reloaded for years and cast for years and had very good luck with it. Since I found this forum almost a year ago several thousand leadheads have gone down the barrel of my .357's, 444 Marlin, 450 Marlin, and 45-70 with nary a streak.

IF you have leading issues, go to a dollar store and get some Chore-Boy brand bronze wool (I *think* that's what I've got, don't use it much) and wrap a few strands around a bore brush, soak in cleaner (your choice) ten or fifteen strokes down the barrel and you're done.

In the accuracy dept? How's this:

http://i525.photobucket.com/albums/cc336/Tazman1602/Targets/PA240014.jpg

.................and YES, it's repeatable. The bullet, load, and gun are accurate, sometimes I am not so......................<grin>

AND WELCOME!

Art

[Bret4207]

458, what you want can certainly be done with cast, which works just fine in "modern" cartridges too. Fit is KING with cast, so you need to start there. A GC will always make things easier. Sheer hardness is not an answer to your troubles. Start there and decide what you want to do.

[Bass Ackward]

[QUOTE=.458;1108931]Been lurking here for sometime but now I have a question.[/QUO


I am not taking a pot shot, but I guess that I will be percieved that way.

My wife always says that she hears what I am saying but ....................................

The "been lurking here but" line translates pretty much to the same thing. You know what I am going to say already, you just don't like what you have read over and over and .... well you get the idea. My bother always said he like swimming but hated getting wet.

You have to know what you require before you place the order. If you don't do the work, then .................................................. ............

There is nothing wrong with buying bullets. But I would buy a size / diameter larger than I needed and then buy a cheap Lee sizer to size the bumps and dings out that are bound to occur with handling. You can then buy more sizes if you want. This way you could (cheaply) play with sizing as you had time.

Learn how to get around lead or quit. If you shoot toilet paper down a bore, you are going to have fouling. A GC design is the closest guarantee you are going to get with lead. Both for a lack of leading at high pressure and better accuracy. Those things don't necessarily go hand in hand either. Oh right, you been lurking already so you know that.

You know each gun is a law unto itself. You know there are no rules or guarantees. You know what has to be done. Decide to get wet and learn how to swim or walk away.

[mdi]

If you need to buy bullets, I'd suggest Beartooth Bullets. The quality of their bullets is high, their lube works in everything I've purchased from them (many manufacturers use a too hard lube meant to stay on the bullet during shipping), and they are available in diameters up to .460" for 45 caliber rifle bullets, of 325 gr. up to 525 gr. Good company to deal with too.

[btroj]

Cant add much to what others have saiid.
Fit is everything. If fit is good, all else will be easy to deal with. Bad fit, especially smaller than needed size, will lead to troubles. It will also make you learn to be good at cleaning lead out of a barrel. Most of us here learned that the same way you did, by doing it. We just learned how to avoid it.
Bass was right. You can only learn so much by reading and asking questions. At some point you got to experiment and learn the old fashioned way.
Try sizing to .460 and life should get better for a Marlin 45-70. Lube and other things will be small players in the battle against lead. Fit, fit, fit.

[Ole]

I shoot cast bullets in several rifles @ 1800-2000 fps with no leading at all.

It's all about the bullet fitting the bore.

[.458]

Excellent! Thank you all for sharing your knowledge. Knowing the challenge is possible is all the motivation I needed.

Bass_Ackward: No perception issues here but my toes feel wet.

[chill45100]

Just joined this group a while ago but have cast bullets for my .45-70 and .45-100 for about 10 years now. Fit is very important to accuracy and clean shooting both. Though with my black powder loads clean is pretty much a misnomer. Still in all on a good day the rifle and I can hold less than 2 minutes of angle out to 600 yards. So please do slug your bore and size accordingly.