Questions for 44 Masters

[x101airborne]

Went to the range today with my redhawk 44 mag and some new loads. kbstenberg was kind enough to loan me a wonderful heavy 260 grain plain base mold and i already had a Saeco 430 GOB throwing 270 gr RNFB. i loaded everything over unsized remington brass, 21 grains of W-296 and standard Wolf primers. Everything recieved a moderate crimp and my boolits were not sized down by the brass. The weapon was immaculate clean inside and i was shooting off a bench. Wind was nill, and the range was 50 yards. Groups were horrible. like 8 inches, horrible. Did I say "horroble"? jaxketed usually go 4" at this range. i had zero leading. The barrel was as clean as when i cleaned it. I just dont get it. What could have gone wrong? neither boolit shot better than the other.

[HighHook]

I would try 8 gr Unique then work higher up the scale of mediums. I am personally a huge fan of 296 for 44 and 357mags.

[white eagle]

I am not sure what unsized brass is
what size were your boolits
you need a dad steady rest sand bags is what I am told
was the brass new
better to use well worn in brass

[Bass Ackward]

1. Put some case neck tension (size your brass) and watch them shrink down to the jacketed size anyway.

2. Redhawks are notorious for short firing pins. That means that you need zero end play in the cylinder.to get consistent ignition. Replacement firing pins are .0005 longer.

If you do not understand end play, point the gun in a safe direction and then try to move your cylinder forward and backward in the frame. If it moves, then each primer is getting hit differently. Too much and the short pin makes it erratic.

But #1 is 90% of the problem. Plus you may need 22 1/2 to 23 grains with those slugs. Mine does anyway.

[x101airborne]

unsized fired brass. It has just enough drag that I can seat a boolit by hand, but cant pull one out without pliars. boolits as cast are .430. barrel is .429.

[x101airborne]

But #1 is 90% of the problem. Plus you may need 22 1/2 to 23 grains with those slugs. Mine does anyway.

I cant handle any more recoil. Im already wondering if I am not ready for long range with the redhawk. I shoot milk jugs regularly with full 41 mags, but after 60 rounds, the redhawk has eaten a hole in the web of my hand.

[TCLouis]

My Super Redhawk does VERY well with 18.5 grains of H110 and Lee 310, at best so so with 21.5.
Try varying the load.

Try some Hogue's on the Redhawk if it is still wearing factory wood. My rRedhawk came with Hogues and I thought I wanted factory wood, so when the chance came to get some factory grips cheap, I jumped on them. Too less than one cylinder full of shooting to switch back to the Hogue's.

[leftiye]

Get sum better grips!!!! I've got Pachmyer decelerators (my fav on everything) on my Super blackhog and it's like shooting a .357.

[jblee10]

I think you need more bullet pull. Size your brass and crimp firmly. With my Redhawk I was able to stone the nose of the hammer where it hits the frame and get more firing pin protrusion. If you do this, make sure the transfer bar still has room for movement with the hammer down to insure trigger return. I also put on a set of Pachmyer Presentation grips at the same time. I don't know it it was the grips or the firing pin, but my groups shrank up. I suspect a lot of it was the grips in my case, as getting a consistant hold was difficult with the stock grips. The grips also keep my thumb from rapping the cylinder recoil plate. Since then I've put on a Ultradot 30 and couldn't be happier.

[Heavy lead]

Yes, grips, Redhawks will tear you up with the full house loads with the factory grips.
I'm betting you don't have enough neck tension for those boolits, try sizing the brass next time out.

[turbo1889]

My guess is that your problems are two fold:

Not enough neck tension ~ if you are worried about work hardening your brass and trying to make them last longer then use a universal depriming die and then use the sizing die but only screw it a little into the press head so only the top 3/8" to 1/2" of the cartridge gets sized down. There is no need to size the whole length if you are shooting them out of the same gun they were originally fired in but there is a need to size the mouth where the boolit goes to get proper neck tension. Doing it this way is just like neck sizing only in rifles. In fact this is the one place where I sometimes find the Lee carbide factory crimp die useful. I never use the darn things like Lee intended but they are sometimes useful to neck size like this before seating the bullet because the carbide sizing ring in the die has a larger inside diameter then a regular sizing die and with larger diameter cast boolits this will sometimes give you just enough neck tension and works the brass as little as possible. Use a regular crimp die to do your crimping; I prefer to do this as a separate step using two regular boolit seater/crimp dies with the first one set to only seat and not crimp and the second set to crimp only with the seater stem backed off.

Irregular ignition ~ Wolf primers are hard primers, just like military primers and they require a very aggressive firing pin or hammer spring and a deep penetrating firing pin to get repeatable ignition characteristics shot to shot. If your gun is set up for them they are great but if not they can be a real pain. Try a cylinder full of loads with regular primers and if your groups improve then you need to either switch primers or set up your gun to work with the wolf primers, which isn't a bad idea since that will make your gun much less sensitive to changes in primer type and brand in your loads for the future.

[geargnasher]

It's been said a couple of times, but you have to understand how important boolit tension is to magnum calibers, especially with 296. The crimp really does nothing usefull for accuracy, and the case tension on the boolit should nearly be enough by itself to keep the boolits from pulling under recoil. You most certainly need to resize at least the "neck" part of the case so it will get a good squeeze on the boolits. Part of the reason you need a tight boolit is so that pesky 296 can build a little pressure and get lit.

Something else that may be going on is boolits pulling under recoil with your unsized cases. They might break the crimp and inch forward causing variances in effective case capacity and thus erratic pressures.

I'd say to make sure you're getting at least a .003" interference fit with your boolits in the case, then give them a good roll crimp on top of that and see what happens. If you're boolits are getting squeezed down by the brass at that tension, then I'd say you need to water quench or heat treat to get them harder.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Ok turbo about covered it while I was typing!

Gear

[dla]

When I Chrono'd Wolf standard primers and W296 I got some pretty wide velocity spreads. They got tighter as the loads got heavier. I personally decided to use the Wolf standard with 2400 and ignite the ball powders with CCI350. So I'm wondering a bit if you aren't experiencing a "perfect storm" of (a)mid-range load of finicky ball powder, (b)zilch crimp for start pressure, and (c) erratic ignition due the lightweight primers. But I'm certainly no expert as I'd be happy with 8"@50yds most days :)

[runfiverun]

thinking primers.
inconsistent ignition is bad juju for accuracy.
and the 296/110 needs neck tension to burn correctly, no matter the primer.
it's either that or your hard lube is coming off erratiaclly causing wobbly boolits [sigh]

[Bass Ackward]

What interests me here is the ways guys diagnose and then describe Wolf primers. You read they are soft, hard, low power and too much power. Which is correct? Or are they all?

In pistol primers, mine are in between Winchester and Federal for power. And I find that they are as consistent to produce groups as anything else. Vise tests with a single shot held in the jaws pointed straight up in the air and a quarter placed on the muzzle go the same height in the air upon firing. Says to me they are consistent cause this test will definitely show you when they are not.

I can detect no appreciable cup hardness difference in firing. So I remove the anvil from spent primers and give each brand of cup the unofficial pliers test. I rate the cups about the same as Winchester or Remington, harder than Federal (not by much on these latest ones, did they change ?) and softer than CCI.

Problem (?) is I buy primers in cases of the same lot number. Are there big differences between Wolf batches that cause this difference of opinion? Or could guys be forming opinions on pistol primers based upon rifle primer use?

I would expect their rifle primers to be harder, but even that could be the wrong assumption.

And this is just my test of pistol primers. I have never tested "their" rifle primers. My rifles hit with much more excess force and they group so well I don't worry about what they are either way.

So I use Wolf primers if they are the cheaper brand. Get enough load work and they could easily become my primer of choice.

Unless the next batch turns out to be way different.

[44man]

I can't add much, Gear and Bass covered it very well.
TENSION first and make the boolits harder to resist it if you must.
Water dropped WW metal does very well in the .44. Let them age harden for a few days. I don't even add tin, waste of money.
22 gr of 296 will be better and you will not tell any difference in recoil.
Then remember the RH is a little grip sensitive so you must hold it the same each shot and VERY FIRM. Never hold it loose, ruins groups and causes your pain.

[x101airborne]

As far as the wolf primers go.... I,ve tested them by inerting the compound with wd-40 and seating them in cases. Then firing them and measuring the dent with a protrusion gauge. i do not have my numbers here, but i remember that the numbers were no further off than any other primers. i have never tested ignition though.

[MakeMineA10mm]

I would try 8 gr Unique then work higher up the scale of mediums. I am personally a huge fan of 296 for 44 and 357mags.

I agree wholeheartedly. All these little details is what I don't like about H-110/W296. I've used it. I know it's great, and I'm not trying to gore anyone's sacred cow. But, it's a horrible powder to start off with in any caliber, because of all these little issues... Don't load it more than 5% down from max, must use heavy neck tension/heavy crimp, must use magnum primers - at least in Winter, but recommended all the time, etc., etc. Try some Unique, or just about any other powder that doesn't have all these little details that make it harder to find success.

[winelover]

I agree wholeheartedly. All these little details is what I don't like about H-110/W296. I've used it. I know it's great, and I'm not trying to gore anyone's sacred cow. But, it's a horrible powder to start off with in any caliber, because of all these little issues... Don't load it more than 5% down from max, must use heavy neck tension/heavy crimp, must use magnum primers - at least in Winter, but recommended all the time, etc., etc. Try some Unique, or just about any other powder that doesn't have all these little details that make it harder to find success.

Exactly why I use 2400 exclusively in my 44 Redhawk for top end loads. Unique for Medium or Low. Same for the 45LC Blackhawk.

Winelover

[44man]

I agree wholeheartedly. All these little details is what I don't like about H-110/W296. I've used it. I know it's great, and I'm not trying to gore anyone's sacred cow. But, it's a horrible powder to start off with in any caliber, because of all these little issues... Don't load it more than 5% down from max, must use heavy neck tension/heavy crimp, must use magnum primers - at least in Winter, but recommended all the time, etc., etc. Try some Unique, or just about any other powder that doesn't have all these little details that make it harder to find success.
No---NOT, don't need mag primers, they will triple groups.
Case tension is needed with any powder in a revolver---PERIOD!
Crimp is a sad issue and too much will ruin tension, too little can allow a boolit to move if tension is lacking but crimp will not turn a pigs ear into a silk purse.
Roll the crimp until it touches the lead in the groove and go no farther.
There is just nothing hard about H110 or 296 and they are great powders. Most likely the very, very best for the .44.

[turbo1889]

I agree that neck tension on the boolit is the primary issue; that is why I listed it first and primers second in my analysis previously posted.

As to Wolf primers being hard; the ones I have are rifle primers (both large and small) and are older stock manufactured and imported prior to the great primer shortage which the Russians made a lot of money on and helped ultimately solve with their massive importation of the Wolf primers. The newer stock are in the black boxes, mine are in the old olive drab boxes that are from the early 90’s. They are just as hard as the primers one finds in military surplus ammo although not quite as hard as those found in Turkish 7.9x53 pre WWI era ammo (which arguably are the hardest primers ever with their thick hard steel cups); the new ones in the black boxes may not be the same as what I have and my comments may be out of date compared to current stock.

[Lloyd Smale]

ive owned a few redhawks and will tell you that the advice on primer strikes is dead on. 296 needs good ignition. Wolf primers are weak primers. THere mag pistol primers are about in the same range as fed standard primers. They also have real hard cups. Its just not a combination that works in something like a redhawk. What you need is a softer cup and hotter primer. Id fool with fed mags and ww mag/std. primers to start with. if you dont have any or cant get them at least bump up your charge a bit to try to get more pressure. Another thing to look at is what your are sizing them too. I rarely size 44 bullets to anything other then 430 but most redhawks do better at 432. What alloy are you using. With a load at that level your going to want AT LEAST air cooled ww. Theres lots more to check. Some redhawks (many of them) have a constriction where the barrel threads are and need to be lapped. Most redhawks ive shot tend to like heavier bullets. Say around 300 grain. Just bumping your powder charge up and down a grain can cut groups in half as can switch primers. You need to make sure your dies are giving you good case tension which is just as imprortant if not more then crimp strenght. powder selection is critical. 296 at that load level is borderline light in pressure. 2400 might be a better choise and the good thing is that it ignites much eaiser. Its what i use for the most part in guns with ignition weakness like redhawks and 454s using small primers. Another thing is that your gun just may not like those two bullet designs. Ive got sixguns ive gone through 10 differnt bullets to find one the gun likes and on top of that had to vary sizeing and alloys to get that bullet to shoot the way i wanted. Bottom line is its easy to work up a load with a cast bullet if all you want to do is roll beer cans at 20 paces but finding a tac driving load in any revolver can be a long process.

[44man]

I agree that neck tension on the boolit is the primary issue; that is why I listed it first and primers second in my analysis previously posted.

As to Wolf primers being hard; the ones I have are rifle primers (both large and small) and are older stock manufactured and imported prior to the great primer shortage which the Russians made a lot of money on and helped ultimately solve with their massive importation of the Wolf primers. The newer stock are in the black boxes, mine are in the old olive drab boxes that are from the early 90’s. They are just as hard as the primers one finds in military surplus ammo although not quite as hard as those found in Turkish 7.9x53 pre WWI era ammo (which arguably are the hardest primers ever with their thick hard steel cups); the new ones in the black boxes may not be the same as what I have and my comments may be out of date compared to current stock.
Primers are important and I use nothing but Fed 150's or CCI 300's in the .44.
I have zero experience with Wolf primers and I agree that a primer cup that is too hard will just ruin accuracy.
I will not buy any old primer to save money.

[fredj338]

thinking primers.
inconsistent ignition is bad juju for accuracy.
and the 296/110 needs neck tension to burn correctly, no matter the primer.
it's either that or your hard lube is coming off erratiaclly causing wobbly boolits [sigh]

This is likely your issue. H110/W296 wants a good crimp & solid neck tension for best ignition. Switch to 2400 & give that a try, less finicky to neck tension. A mag primer is a must IMO for best ignition as well. The next thing to check is cyl throat size. My RBH had very small throats & it palyed havoc w/ leding using a moderately soft alloy & accuracy. After opening them up to groove dia, things got a lot better. My RBH hunter will go 4" @ 50yds w/ my hunting bullets; 270grLHPgc @ 1250fps using 2400.
My exp w/ Wolf LP primers is they actually run a bit hotter than CCI or RP. At elast in test in my 45acp, vel are always higher w/ WOlf. I think there is quite a variation ebtween lots though, YMMV.

[243winxb]

Size brass for good neck tension. That powder needs a magnum primer.

[mike in co]

unsized fired brass. It has just enough drag that I can seat a boolit by hand, but cant pull one out without pliars. boolits as cast are .430. barrel is .429.

forget the bbl dia...what size are the throats...size for the cylinder....

my srh is 4316 and i size at 4312 or so.....gun shoots 3/4" at 25yds which is perfect for my 50yd matches. and yes my bbl chokes down to 429 at the threads in the frame.


mike in co

ps i shoot aa9 and wc820( a bit slower than 9) and STD primers in the srh.

[44magLeo]

The Redhawk I had shot very well with water dropped ww's. I like the Lyman 429421. Boolits drop out off the mould at about .431. And weighed about 265 grs. I use 21.5 grs 2400 or 24 grs of H110 over a CCI 300 primer.
Shot groups about 3/4 at 25 yards. From a good solid rest. Standing up on my feet and ripping them off as fast as I can line up the sights I can ring a 12 inch gong a 250 yards 6 outa 6 shots.
My SBH would put them at about 1/2 at 25 yards.
I liked the SBH for long range work, like wood chucks to 150 yards. The
Redhawk was good to 100 but not quite as good at 150. I guess the extra 2 inches of barrel on the SBH helped.
I don't think you need a bullet heavier than that for anything on this continent. I have hit deer at 150 yards and broke a shoulder on the way in and a hip on the way out.
People have used simular loads to break both shoulders of a moose.
If it can do that I think it's plenty of boolit.

[SkookumJeff]

I'm confused. If he's shooting off of a sandbag rest, why would grips change anything related to accuracy?

SkookumJeff

[kelbro]

I'm confused. If he's shooting off of a sandbag rest, why would grips change anything related to accuracy?

SkookumJeff

I do know that your GRIP can change the accuracy. Limp-wristed vs. firm. Bisley vs. plow handle. Maybe grip material could too as it affects the 'roll'.

[crabo]

For a pleasant shooting round, I use 12 of HS6 with the H&G 503. 2" at 50 yards. It's going about 1200 fps.

[44man]

I'm confused. If he's shooting off of a sandbag rest, why would grips change anything related to accuracy?

SkookumJeff
Yes, they really do. I used to have a pile of S&W 29's and each would do 1/2" at 50 meters but just setting the gun down, picking it up again would move the group as much as 10", still 1/2" but way off. I never shot worth a bean at IHMSA with them because I had to put the gun down between relays.
I have a problem with a Bisley too. The SRH just needs a firm grip but the RH can be a chore.
The very best for me is a plain old hog leg, I can shift the hold and still hit.
Many poor groups are really the grip angle and shape. If the gun changes recoil rise, torque or anything else between shots, it means you just can't hold the gun the same all the time. It might feel good to you but the gun is stupid and can't adjust itself.

[NHlever]

I agree with 44man. When I worked at Ruger, I built a lot of prototype Redhawks, 25 in all I think, and my son keeps after me to own one because of that. I have tried two, or three over the years since my prototype days, but I just can't seem to manage a consistant grip on the things, and consequently don't shoot them very well. I have Super Blackhawks that work for me, and I have shot good groups with a couple of Super Redhawk Alaskans of all things ( never owned one, that was testing in the plant) and so I am tempted to try one of the regular Super Redhawks someday.

[Swede44mag]

I have a DW 44mag that use to get groups the size of a 5 gallon bucket at 25 yards. After researching the problem and with the help of several forum members I discovered the throats measured .427. The bullet was getting resized by the too small throat before it ever touched the barrel. After purchasing a throat reamer from Brownell in the correct size my groups shrank with the same SWC gas check WW cast in a Lyman mold to about 1.5" at 25 yards. If I had a scope I may have done better.

[SkookumJeff]

Offhand shooting I can understand how grip will affect the results. Shooting off the bench off sandbags, it surprises me that grip will affect accuracy, assuming that the shooter uses proper technique and trigger control to squeeze off the shot.

But...me being surprised...is no surprise these days...:-?

SkookumJeff

[Tom W.]

I read so many gun rags that I was concerned about H 110, but I decided to try some anyway.

Seems that I've found that H110 works just as well with magnum primers as with standard primers.

I've also found that
standard primers aren't as strong as magnum primers, but they both work just fine. I do know that they will be a bit more "snappy" with magnum primers, but there really doesn't seem to be that much difference, at least to me.

[SkookumJeff]

I see a lot of gun writers recommend magnum primers when using double base (ball) powders. These powders are supposed to be harder to ignite. So they say anyway. Hodgdon doesn't indicate magnum primers with H110, but I believe some of my reloading manuals do...

H110...one of my favorite powders in the .44 mag. Lately though I've been playing with AA#9, it may be my NEW favorite powder in this cartridge.

SkookumJeff

[Mal Paso]

I like the Hogue Grips that came with me 4" Redhawk. They have a fat butt that keeps the gun from rolling and beating up my hand. They are not expensive.

I have had Primer ignition issues with my Redhawk and with my Anaconda as well. Both of them One Spring actions. The worst were 2 different batches of Winchester LP which everyone else seems to love. I have also seen Wide variations in powder too so I now do side by side testing of each new Lot. I've had fewer problems with my ( 2 Spring ) S&W 629 but it"s not as rugged as the other 2 guns.

[44man]

I see a lot of gun writers recommend magnum primers when using double base (ball) powders. These powders are supposed to be harder to ignite. So they say anyway. Hodgdon doesn't indicate magnum primers with H110, but I believe some of my reloading manuals do...

H110...one of my favorite powders in the .44 mag. Lately though I've been playing with AA#9, it may be my NEW favorite powder in this cartridge.

SkookumJeff
I do believe that Federal has stopped using mag primers in the .44 because of accuracy issues.
The powder ignites well but it is the amount you use, never download it below starting loads. The powder must be close to the primer fire. Too much primer pressure will move the powder forward and also push out the boolit before ignition.
It is like holding a match to a pile of powder. The heat will light it but if you blow on the powder pile to take it away from the flame, it will not light.
Simple is simple, remove the powder from the heat and it will not burn.