leading problem

[gunslinger20]

I have a ruger bisley BH that leads the barrel with all standerd valosity bhn 12 boolits (265 gn.) Forcing cone measures .451 boolits are .452, but if i shoot high valosity no problem. Question : would it be posible to cast pure lead water drop to get the bhn up a little and gas ck. to posibly not have to buy .254 molds. just my way of thinking.

[onesonek]

Pure lead won't water drop harden,,,you need antimony in the mix. I would try cutting your BHN 12 alloy by 1/2 with pure lead (aircooled) and see what the lower velocity rounds act like.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

What does the cylinder throats measures ?

if the cylinder throat sizes down the boolit before it even reaches
the barrel...well that is a common problem.
Jon

[gunslinger20]

Cylinders reamed to .452 Barrel laped And polished. also i can gas ck thr boolit.

[gunslinger20]

will adding ww by 50 50 to pure lead posibly up the bhn enough

[JudgeBAC]

You need to try boolits sized .452, .453, and .454 with your current alloy to determine if it is a size problem or an alloy problem. If none of the above sizes work with your alloy, change alloy and go through the whole process again until you find the right combination.

[gunslinger20]

This is the most informative forum i have seen on the net anyehere.
If I shoot the same boolits with 24 gn of h110 there is no leading at all thats why I was thinking of trying a softer bhn than the 12bhn for light loads

[gunslinger20]

Sorry onesonek i misunderstood you are saying cut the 12bhn with pure lead

[cajun shooter]

You are going at it in the wrong manner. If your Ruger is leading with bullets that test out at 12 BHN then making them harder will cause bigger problems. Many a old time shooter had great results with bullets in the 8-10 range. Most all my shooting is done with 20-1 mix alloy which is what makes your BHN 10 bullets. With out being there I feel you have a fit problem as a bullet as you described should leave no leading if all places of contact are correct for it to be used.I used bullets of .454 with a .4525 barrel and always had great results. Try going bigger not harder.

[gunslinger20]

I probably do have a fit problem but dont want to buy all new moulds so as onsonek was saying if i cut the bhn12 with pure lead it will give a softer bhn for standerd valosity load (below 13000 cup) when i shoot high valosity loads for rugers the problem goes away. .454 molds arent as easy to find in as many boolit designs

[runfiverun]

i think the problem is using the g/c boolit without the g/c.
pushing the boolit hard is bumping up the bases, sealing.
not necessarily the g/c shank being bumped up.
i'd try some plain base boolits, or the g/c and the 12 bhn alloy.
if the g/c works with the 12 bhn alloy, you are now sealing properly.
a plain base would do the same thing.

[HeavyMetal]

Gunslinger:
You've hit the nail on the head! 12 BHN are good for hot loads but to hard for light loads.

By cutting your current alloy with pure lead you can reduce the BHN number down ( softer) to 7 or 8 BHN. I think you got the fit problem solved or you'd lead at all velocities.

I will suggest you you cast up a bunch in each alloy and mark them accordingly so you don't mix them up during a loading session.

It is not uncommon for a caster with several guns to have several different alloys for a specific caliber or shooting need.

welcome to the insanity!

[gunslinger20]

This place is amazing. As far as the gas ck i dont get leading with a bb boolit bhn 12 at high valosity but i do with standard valosity and the same boolit. I also have bhn 20 .452 265gn gc boolitswhen pushed by 24gn h110 no leading.

[waksupi]

Do a search on "beagling" to enlarge your boolits. This may help.

[geargnasher]

12 BHN is just about perfect for 13K CUP SAA type loads, I shoot thousands a year like that, although they are plain or bevel-based, not GC without GC.

If you're getting leading when reducing the pressures (assuming all else is equal except the powder) it sounds like a fit issue as R5R said. Softer alloy might help for the standard pressure loads, but isn't the best solution. If you don't want to buy a mould, buy gas checks. Otherwise, any good plain-based design like the economical Lee 255 RF should serve you well sized to 452" with your 12 bhn alloy, or even down to 9 or so, and most of them cast .4525" or so with WW alloy.

Ruger, due to the way they match barrel and receiver threads, often crushes the forcing cone area of the barrel causing a restriction sometimes called "thread choke". Most Rugers and many Smiths have this issue, made certain that your lapping job took care of it completely or you'll need soft boolits and lots of pressure to "bump" the boolit back up to achieve obturation of the barrel AFTER passing through the forcing cone. I've been through this with a number of Rugers that leaded the barrel like crazy due to gas cutting from the boolit being squeezed undersized by thread choke, and firelapping and/or recutting the cone or even having a gunsmith set the barrel back a thread without overtorquing it can fix it.

To make sure you still don't have thread choke, drive a dead-soft lead slug, "barrel" type fishing sinker, or even a soft .454" round ball through the barrel from the muzzle end, but stop 1" before the frame. Use short, 2" pieces of 3/8" birch dowel rods to push the slug back out the muzzle, stacking one on top of the other through the breech end until it comes out. Then, push a slug all the way through the barrel. Measure the difference to see if the second one got squeezed smaller going through the frame area on the breech end. If it's smaller, you may need to firelap some more.

Gear

[gunslinger20]

Im not shooting gc boolits wo gc let me clearify if i shoot 265 bb boolit at high velosity no leading if i shoot at standard velosity bad leading If i shoot a different 265gn .452 gc boolit with gc at hi velosity no leading I have not shot gc boolit at standard velosity. when i slugged the barrel idrove a soft boolit in at the forcing cone then drove it back out in the oposit direction so the measurement of .451 is correct the barrel also measures .451 in the middle there is a very slight over size bore but all of the leading is at the forcing cone none down the barrel

[mdi]

In my opinion, you are having a boolit size prob. High velocity (high pressure) does not lead because the pressure "bumps up" the boolit for a better fit. Standard velocity (lower pressure) doesn't bump up the boolits enough to stop leading.

Reread Gear's post and size your boolits accordinfly. You man not need new molds, measure them as they drop and see what size they are as cast. I like Lee push through dies and have 3, in .001" increments for each caliber I cast for...

[gunslinger20]

Thanks all Im going to see what size i can get in a lee push through die

[Cadillo]

This is the most informative forum i have seen on the net anyehere.
If I shoot the same boolits with 24 gn of h110 there is no leading at all thats why I was thinking of trying a softer bhn than the 12bhn for light loads

I don't think that you mentioned the load data in your first post, but I'll take a guess that it is not hot enough. When I first starting casting for .45 ACP (200 grain swc), I got barrel leading like sin, regardless of alloy, lube, bullet size (.451 or .452) etc. I increased my powder charge from 4.5 grains of 231 to 5.0 grains with NO OTHER CHANGES, and now that I've settled on a 5.0 grain charge, I get no leading with any combination of alloy, lube etc.

Seems to me that sometimes you just need to smack the back of the bullet hard enough to get it to expand into the grooves and seal correctly.

[gunslinger20]

Any load in the 13000 cup range or less leads the forcing cone( 265 gn LRNFP 6gn trail boss, 6gn red dot 9gn unique 6.2 gn tight gp.) Ruger only loads dont lead the cone.(265gn LRNFP 24gn h110 20gn 2400)

[runfiverun]

soften the lead to seal like the hard lead higher pressure load does.

[gunslinger20]

I have a 10# lee pot, pure lead and ww Im not sure where to start, maybe 50/50 wpure lead to ww?
Thanks for all the help evryone.

[docone31]

First, Keep your Pot Clean!
Melt into ingots seperately. I use an old muffin pan and seperate heat source.
Keeping it clean is half the battle.
I like 50/50 mixes. Does the job with my ACP.

[mroliver77]

50/50 pure lead to WW is a good place to start. You could add a smidge of tin also. I think that is going to help a bunch. I have been there and done same to fix. Keep us posted.
Jay

[gunslinger20]

At presant I dont have any tin and ww are comming hopfully this thursday 1-6-11. I used to only cast maxi balls for my muzzleloader out of pure lead so this is a new ball game for me.

[gunslinger20]

ok got the ww why are my ww smelt ingets frosty looking. The melt temp was around 650 outside temp around 30. I could only put a few ww in at a time cuz the pot would freeze up, didnt want to get any forein metals in the mix. Boolits look good except for the frosted look. They are within 8gns of the stated wt. on the mold 300 gns= 308 the alloy that i was useing cast 317gns which i was told was 12bhn When i used to cast pure lead for muzzleloaders they had a mirror like shine. I have not shot any of the new casts. Is the frosting normal for ww boolits?

[gunslinger20]

Disregard the frosty boolit concern i got the answer. I shot a few, not for accuracy just to see if they lead and they did 20gns 2400 255gn lrfnpb as cast not sized tumble lubed alox 50% jpw 50% solvent cooked down not out

[MtGun44]

Try a real lube in a known good boolit design, soft enough and/or large enough to
fit in advance. Tumble lubed sounds like inadequate lube quantity and probably quality.

Frosty means zippo except you are hot enough and will probably get good fill out.

What mold? I shoot lots of 20gr/2400 with 50-50 Lino-Pb or straight AC WWts Keith
250 and get zero leading and 2" at 50 yds over a rest. Same results with many different
guns (accy varies a bit worse with some other guns). Same result with 4 diff .357 Mags
and .38 Spl S&W and Ruger (~ 1" at 25 yds, zero leading, multiple boolits incl LBT style
Lee 158 bb). NRA 50-50 lube or LBT soft blue.

Unknown quality lubes are often a real issue, IMO. I wonder why folks spend so much
time piddling with floor wax and other stuff when NRA 50-50, LBT, Lyman, etc lubes cost
very little. Save $1, lead the bore.

Bill

[gunslinger20]

lee 452255rf and c452300 I also have tried 255gn and 275gn boolits from penn that are .452 with single lube groove and they say bhn 12. I have not tried 50-50 ww-pb.

[gunslinger20]

ok still get leading in forceing cone with the following 6.0 gn trail boss and 255gn lee 452255rf with ww, ww water qu ww stick ons all boolits as dropped 453.5-454 barrel fire lapped cyl reamed 452 lube liquid alox jpw

[44man]

This is the most informative forum i have seen on the net anyehere.
If I shoot the same boolits with 24 gn of h110 there is no leading at all thats why I was thinking of trying a softer bhn than the 12bhn for light loads
Failure thinking of softer for light loads. Pressure rises faster and even though the total is less, it hits the boolit RIGHT NOW.
Use the 24 BHN or even harder up to 30 BHN for the light loads.

[gunslinger20]

wow im not following that thought, if you use hard boolits for lite loads and hard boolits for heavy loads why would there be any need for anything less than 24?

[geargnasher]

wow im not following that thought, if you use hard boolits for lite loads and hard boolits for heavy loads why would there be any need for anything less than 24?

Comparatively light loads require (generally) powders with fast burn rates to get consistent ignition and full, clean burn with low peak average pressure.

Fast powders are, well, FAST.

Let me introduce you to the nemesis of soft boolits and fast powders: Boolit Skid.

Boolit skid opens up the land engraves to wider than the lands, if it's bad enough it will cause pressure hemorraging around the boolit and gas-cutting which lays down fine lead particals in the bore ahead of the boolit. The boolit's passage over these particals irons them on and you get LEADING.

Harder boolits that fit the gun correctly will reduce Boolit Skid greatly with any powder burn rate. They don't have to be 24 bhn, but harder than 12 can solve some problems created with low-pressure loads/soft boolits/fast powders. Not THE way, just A way that can be tried.

Sometimes, if things are balanced right, the fast powder can overcome the acceleration rate of the boolit and force the base band to deform enough to reseal in the bore. It's a razor's edge, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. That's how black powder (one of the fastest-burning propellants in existence) and dead-soft lead can work in a revolver. That, and a quality lube.

Gear