end shake measurement

[redneckdan]

I finally got around to measuring the end shake in my 19-4 and measured it at about 4 thou. Is this enough to consider either stretching the crane or installing washers?

[waksupi]

Keep in mind, there should be some clearance. I don't know the measurement off hand. I thought my S&W 29 seemed loose, but when i sent it back to the factory for refurbishment, I was told it was just fine, and not to worry about it. You may want to contact the factory.

[versifier]

I don't think it's excessive. Have you been shooting a lot of hot loads in it?

[KCSO]

4-6 is factory tolerance 7-9 normal wear 9 and over is reair. Don't put in washers do it right and find someone with a crane tool.

[dragonrider]

if you should decide to adjust, I would go with the shims, it is more precise and easier to dod right the first time. You can get shims in .001" increments.

[Bass Ackward]

KSCO,

Thanks, for the information.

Wow! Makes you wonder how you could get a B / C gap tighter than .009 on a Smith because the cylinder would always be slamming into it. A consistent BC gap would be needed for good ES spreads as well I would think.

I got ahold of a 25-2 used in competition and when I made the test, the owner just smiled. He said I was on to his secret. It was solid as a rock. Since the washers are reversible, I for one intend to try it.

[redneckdan]

this gun was first used by the flint police department, so I assume they fired mostly .38s (primarily due to the fact there is are slight marks right about where a .38 case would end in the cylinders) and carreid .357s. My dad bought it when they retired them and he carried it fwhile working as a security gaurd, he shot +p .38s ands carried .357s, shot a couple deer with it too. I got it 3 years ago, most shoot target .38s and less than 25 total reounds of hot stuff through it. The gun is mid '64 production. Lots of blueing wear. Had problems with the cylinder over indexing while firing duble action but that was due to a burr on the cylinder stop, a little stoning remidied that.

[Bass Ackward]

Had problems with the cylinder over indexing while firing duble action but that was due to a burr on the cylinder stop, a little stoning remidied that.


Red,

Well, .... then what are you trying to fix?

If everything is working, it would be safer to let me try it and see what I find out before you spend $16. I have several Smiths that .... could use work in my opinion. And my 329pd, which is aluminum and has just over 1000 rounds through it, has zero tollerance. Nada. Zip. It's solid as a rock with no movement.

But it's my only Smith like that. My guess is that with the aluminum, they had to prevent wear as much as possible so they made it tight. Either that or it just slipped past .... "quality control". :grin:

[KCSO]

0 tolerance is maybe ok on a target gun, but for any other purpose you need a little play to make up for heat expansion and fouling. As a good example I recently shot a Merwin and Hulbert that was in new condition. 4 shots and the gun was locked up tight, there was no slop anywhere and foouling tied the gun up but quick. The cylinder was fitted so well that when you pulled the bbl forward suction pulled it back, beautiful workmanship, but no good for field use. When the stainless guns first came out we had problems with them locking from heat expansion when fired with 357's and then some parts were changed to plated 4140.

[Bass Ackward]

0 tolerance is maybe ok on a target gun, but for any other purpose you need a little play to make up for heat expansion and fouling.


KCSO,

That sounds rational. But being the dummy I am, I can't see it with endshake.

In fact, 0 endshake tollerance holds the cylinder away from the barrel at the maximum for each chamber and expansion from heat occuring at the chamber and forcing cone have maximum space and therfore have less opportunity to drag and hang up. The pawl makes uniform contact with all indexes, therefore timing should be as good as it's ever going to be.

In fact, I can't think of a negative unless it is with a S&W where you don't have that front lock-up for strength. Say you have a chamber alignment issue and nothing is free to give, that could be why.

Am I missing something?

[floodgate]

KCSO:

I had one of those Melvin, Hulberts in .44&40 many years back; it was a little too worn to have the "suction" collectors rave about, but was a nice piece. But, it was one of the folding-hammer DA's, and I could never get it to time properly for both DA and SA, so left it set up as an SA. But the folding hammer spur would snap closed every shot, and it got to be a pain to pry it open after each shot, so I passed it on. One of the truly unique revolavers in American history.

floodgate

[KCSO]

I am coming from the standpoint of serious combat practice, and duty use. When you are shooting from 50 to 100 rounds of rapid fire with full house loads too tight of a gun will lock up. Absolute 0 endshake and high heat will give you cylinder drag just when you want the gun to roll through as easy as possible. Add to this the fact that most cops (my customer) have little interest in shooting and NO interest in cleaning and you end up with problems. The target shooters who clean their guns usually don't have problems. About 60% of all gun problems I see come from, or start with lack of cleaning. Back in the late 60's i had a K38 that worked fine for target shooting as I would shoot my 10 and brush off the cylinder and bore. My first combat shoot with this gun it tied up on round 25 from fouling build up on the cylinder face, it had 3 thou clearance and was just too tight. Same with shims, I have found that shims tend to expand with heat a little more than the crane material so I use a crane tool. All my guns have to shoot 250 rounds minimum without cleaning and without binding in the least. Same with a semi auto, if it won't go 250 without a jam it's broke! I had a hard teacher from the FBI early on and the first thing he did was make me take ALL the target crap off my guns. No trigger shoes, no over travel, and he prefered fixed sights, no accurized guns. Years of duty on the streets proved he was right. My last K38 has about 2 thou of end shake and a 7 thou of gap and shot under 2" at 50 yards and would put all six into 4 1/2" at 100 yards, and most importantly would shoot all day long with duty ammo.

[Bass Ackward]

I have started a search for the history of end play to see just how it has been thought of over the years. Searching was not very productive. SAAMI defines it, but lists no tollerance or warnings for either too tight or too lose.

The first sourse I could find is "Six Guns" by Elmer Keith. Page 217 under the chapter; Repairs, Remodeling, Resighting.

"All end play should be checked on double action revolver cylinders. Reject "any" gun with end play of the cylinder."

Boy. That's a kinda closed minded attitude with not a lot of wiggle room. Apparently, for those that wonder if Keith's handguns from Smith & Wesson were a cut above what everyone else was able to purchase, would accept this as a testimonial if he would not accept ANY end play.

I will continue to search at the library this weekend.

[felix]

There's got to be a "systems" approach to tuning a revolter, somewhere, somehow, that will optimize it for a named goal, such as target versus combat. I have 10 or so of these guns, and only a couple work well enough for "target". Both of these have seen S&W employees several times, and it appears there is absolutely no system in place to make a guaranteed shooter. This is not the case where the model 41 (22LR) is involved. Somebody years ago must have come up with a good plan to make these shoot. I have not shot one that did not shoot. Just the opposite for the revolters unless by sheer luck. ... felix

[Bass Ackward]

Could not find a lot of information on end shake. Seems all custom Smiths advertise eliminating it, so I can live with that.

Posted some actual shooting results up in the Cast Boolits section where more people will read them under Mechanical .................

[GP100man]

fellers if the revolver shoots where you point it ,dont fix it
ishoot from 50 to 200 rnds practicing& if hang up occurs its
ussally me not letting trigger return all the way.
asfor cyl gap i like .005 its in the middle & ive never had a cyl hang up
from carbon fouling
but then again ive never liked unique &bulls eye for soft loads.

[leftiye]

Ha, Ha, Revolter! Yup, that's my Dan Wesson.