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milkman
10-25-2006, 02:56 PM
I have been looking at Savage Muzzleloaders for the past couple years. The idea of using smokeless powder is really attractive to me, but it just rubs my skinflint rear-end raw to thnk about paying $1 per shot to shot sabots.

I have always cast my own and have gotten excellent results with the .50 cal 370 grain Maxi-ball. Savage states that with lead conicals barrel leading is excessive. I was wondering if anyone has tried paper patching conicals with a modern rifle. The in-lines I have used load much, much easier than my old hawken and I thought that maybe the paper could survive a trip both ways.

Is there any reason that felix-lube or equivelent wouldn't work as well with smokeless in a muzzleloader as it does in a cartridge rifle?

Any Savage shooters out there?

versifier
10-25-2006, 03:43 PM
Three thoughts:
First, you have nothing to lose by experimenting. Try it and see what happens with paper patching (which I kind of doubt would work well with deep cut rifling, but I am operating on logic here, not personal experience).
Second, you may be onto something with felix lube & smokeless m/l and I am interested to hear your results.
Third, sabots don't have to cost you a buck a shot. T/C sells empty sabots in bulk, now only in .50 (good thing I stocked up on the .54's two years ago and found four bags of break-aways at a recent show). You can get them to hold either .44 or .45 boolits. You might have to size the boolits slightly for easier loading. I use pure lead to cast .45's for my .54 and they need to be run through the .452 push thru sizer.

milkman
10-25-2006, 06:52 PM
Versifier,
I havent got anything now which will shoot somkeless safely, so trials will be difficult. I'm shooting conicals with a heavy coat of Lee alox out of an NEA Huntsman with no leading and good accuracy. Maybe I will try paper patching a few slugs out of the huntsman, that should tell me something. I do have a mold for 500g .458 bullets, I hadn't thought of sizing them to .452, but I do just happen to have a sizer that diameter on the way. :-D

Thanks,
milkman

jh45gun
10-26-2006, 01:10 AM
I am not a traditionalist in the sense as I own a inline and my underhammer is a fast twist barrel. I also shoot a caplock ball shooter. I do however have a problem with these guns (savage) shooting smokeless. What they are is basically a CASELESS centerfire. At least with the others you still use a primitive powder or a powder made to mimic the black powder which still keeps it some what primitive. Shooting these guns using smokeless powder is really not at all what the muzzle loader season was meant to be. Just my opinion and I do not get as reved up as the traditional guys do but we have to draw the line somewhere.

versifier
10-26-2006, 09:27 AM
jh,
I do agree with your sentiments regarding their use as hunting weapons in m/l seasons, but that doesn't stop me from being very curious as to how they behave with changes in components. Obviously, some things that hold true for traditional and inline m/l's with bp and subs are going to hold true for the Savages, but others are not. This leaves the questions of which ones do or don't work and why or why not. Most any time there is some new development, contraversial or not, there is often something important that can be learned from it, even if I would personally not choose to incorporate it into my current loading (or hunting) practices. There is always the chance that the results of such experiments pushing the envelope of what is known and accepted will give someone else (or me) a really good idea that I can use. I can think of dozens of guns I would like to buy and play with before I would even consider owning a smokeless m/l, but when and if someone else gets one and posts the results of various experiments with it, I will lap it up like a dog in the gravy bowl, think on it, and see what comes to mind. :-D You just never know....

milkman
10-26-2006, 01:05 PM
I understand your reasoning, but I guess that I just don't agree.

It isn't a black powder season in Arkansas, its a muzzle loading season. smokeless is legal, 777 is legal, pyrodex is legal. sabots are legal, 209 primers are legal, optics are legal. As long as it is within the law it is acceptable to me. Just my thinking, I'm seldom right but never in doubt.

I hunted with a t/c hawken for years with black powder and round balls, till my eyesight got too bad for open sights and I enjoyed every minute of it, but now its go modern or don't go. Where do you draw the line? I think you can draw the line wherever you want and I will do the same. Hopefully with no hard feelings.

milkman

jh45gun
10-26-2006, 09:40 PM
Hey Milkman I am not against the use of scopes or red dots or peep sights if it helps you shoot well I am all for it. I also do not have a problem with inlines or the projectiles that others shoot. I shoot my own cast balls and conicals but if some one wants to shoot a sabot with a pistol bullet or all copper muzzle loader bullet or a belted job go for it. I just feel that muzzle loaders should be limited to black powder or a substitute made to mimic black powder and not a smokeless variety. That way at least you break the chain and keep at least the powder primitive in use. For targets go for it. For hunting I think the powder should be a sub or black. Just my opinion and considering the rest of the things ya can use I feel that is pretty open minded. I am not advocating every thing the traditionalist say. If you used black or a sub in your Savage you still could use a scope or red dot and see what your shooting at and still keep it sorta primitive due to the powder. Just like all those that use inlines and scopes that cannot use smokeless.

waksupi
10-26-2006, 10:21 PM
I guess one thing that really gripes me on the inlines, is the bore size. Why don't they make them .35-.40 bore size, so you could use a proper bullet, fitted to the bore, rather than all the extra crap? the range would be better, and the killing effect would be as good, or better. Why do some think they need to load these up to .458 Win Mag velocities to work on deer?

charger 1
10-27-2006, 04:04 AM
I guess one thing that really gripes me on the inlines, is the bore size. Why don't they make them .35-.40 bore size, so you could use a proper bullet, fitted to the bore, rather than all the extra crap? the range would be better, and the killing effect would be as good, or better. Why do some think they need to load these up to .458 Win Mag velocities to work on deer?

The one I'm shooting now shoves a 300 gr 452 xtp hornady out at 2400+ with 65 grains of H4198,and MMP sabot. The big thing with the smokeless ML's is time between shots. Not just when the barrel feels cool,but at the range when grouping actual time between shots.8+ minutes up here but it depends on the ambient. If you adhere to a few rules with these puppies their a point and click out to 250 on whitetail. To answer your question Waksupi,its not to get the energy its to get the distance.To get out over bean fields 400+ yds some guys here are making spitzer molds and doing their own. Just south of me the whole province has become ML and shotgun only because of rifle projectiles flying to far. I just worry that some of these guys hot rodding these with a spitzer doing 2700+FPS are going to ruin it for everyone

kenjuudo
10-27-2006, 07:08 AM
400 yards....damn, it's called hunting. I want to get up on whatever I'm hunting, with whatever I'm hunting with. That IS supposed to be the thrill of it isn't it?

jim

charger 1
10-27-2006, 08:15 AM
400 yards....damn, it's called hunting. I want to get up on whatever I'm hunting, with whatever I'm hunting with. That IS supposed to be the thrill of it isn't it?

jim

I don't think I said you had to shoot that far bro

versifier
10-27-2006, 09:50 AM
I don't know about you, but when I actually HIT something at 400yds, it's a thrill! (Not that I'm after anything but varmints and targets at that range.) :-D

jh45gun
10-27-2006, 08:29 PM
No you do not have to shoot that far but you guys with the wonder rifles keep it up there will not be a muzzle loading season as we know it now. Why bother if your right in with the Centerfires???????????????? Some States already are questioning this.

charger 1
10-28-2006, 04:39 AM
No you do not have to shoot that far but you guys with the wonder rifles keep it up there will not be a muzzle loading season as we know it now. Why bother if your right in with the Centerfires???????????????? Some States already are questioning this.

Whow Whow Whow. Read my post again. You'll find I'm not one and am not keen on it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

charger 1
10-28-2006, 04:41 AM
******************
I just worry that some of these guys hot rodding these with a spitzer doing 2700+FPS are going to ruin it for everyone******************

Please read again

44man
10-28-2006, 10:45 AM
I have to agree that the ranges the inlines are capable of, not that you have to shoot that far, but because the bullet can travel farther might ruin the seasons. In many areas that only shotguns and muzzle loaders are legal because of population density, I see the inlines being removed entirely. You can't use high power rifles in these areas, then someone with an inline sends bullets into someones house because they shoot too far and watch what happens!
I will never understand why anyone has to stretch the range with what is supposed to be a primitive weapon. It removes the basis for the primitive season--hunt to get close and hope the gun fires, without competing against long range guns. There are only two choices, eliminate the muzzle loader designation and allow ANY kind of gun or limit the inline to rifle season.
Archery season is an example where you can hunt without a million guys with rifles running the deer crazy. Some might say the modern bows are not right either but you have to remember that they don't shoot any farther, any advantage can be measured in FEET not hundreds of yards.
I will not own an inline until the day the companies make one for a patched round ball. That would make a great base for a scope for old eyes without ruining the primitive aspect.
Inlines are not new but the sabot and use of jacketed bullets is.
I always hear the excuse that ranges are long where someone hunts and they can't kill a deer unless the rifle shoots far! Strange that archers have no trouble, even killing pronghorns in the wide open spaces.
Some say that if the old timers could have made their guns shoot farther, they would have---well duh, they did and smokeless guns were developed. This is why we have different seasons, archery, primitive and high power to match the advancements as they were achieved. Each group fought for years to be allowed to have special seasons for the type of weapon they wanted to use without competition from more modern fire arms and I think that is the way it should stay.

44man
10-28-2006, 10:54 AM
By the way, I hunted Ohio, WV gun seasons and PA primitive season with a .45 flintlock that I built and never felt undergunned and I never came home empty handed. I can't count the deer the little rifle killed, never lost one or had to track one for any distance. Would I have traded that little rifle for an inline? Not on your life!

jh45gun
10-28-2006, 02:49 PM
OK charger sorry I thought you were sticking up for it.

Underclocked
10-28-2006, 03:31 PM
Lumping the smokeless capable inlines together with all other inlines is a bit of a problem for those of us inliners that would also draw the line short of smokeless.

Oldfeller
10-28-2006, 06:20 PM
Well, you almost had a discussion on Savage smokeless muzzle loaders -- right up to the point you did decide have a discussion on black powder political correctness.

Milkman, those $$dollar$$ shot cups actually play a role in a Savage muzzle loading system -- they constitute the overpressure safety mechanism. If somebody overloads a Savage smokeless smokepole, the plastic cup inherently fails -- safely venting the unwanted over pressure.

Savage wants you to use a shotcup for their own liability reasons.

People got irritated at this particular trick because it put a velocity ceiling on their new toy -- why have the thing at all unless you can make it go really really fast? Some worked up loads using two cups (one trimmed to just the base & cup) and some went with a expanding base conical bullet.

They found that 1) at smokeless pressures the hollow lead skirt bases can rupture at an internal casting void if they pushed hard enough and that 2) leading is an issue and accuracy simply isn't as good as the sabotted rounds. Needless to say, you can take the gun down and get the leading out but it is a major pain in the *** to do so repeatedly (while making less than stellar accuracy while doing so).

There is no solution to the Savage muzzle loader issue (not yet anyway).

Go to the in-line Savage rifle boards to research this particular issue, it isn't POLITICALLY CORRECT to discuss it here as it is upsetting to the holy black traditionalists.

waksupi
10-29-2006, 02:20 AM
Well, you almost had a discussion on Savage smokeless muzzle loaders -- right up to the point you did decide have a discussion on black powder political correctness.

Milkman, those $$dollar$$ shot cups actually play a role in a Savage muzzle loading system -- they constitute the overpressure safety mechanism. If somebody overloads a Savage smokeless smokepole, the plastic cup inherently fails -- safely venting the unwanted over pressure.

Savage wants you to use a shotcup for their own liability reasons.

People got irritated at this particular trick because it put a velocity ceiling on their new toy -- why have the thing at all unless you can make it go really really fast? Some worked up loads using two cups (one trimmed to just the base & cup) and some went with a expanding base conical bullet.

They found that 1) at smokeless pressures the hollow lead skirt bases can rupture at an internal casting void if they pushed hard enough and that 2) leading is an issue and accuracy simply isn't as good as the sabotted rounds. Needless to say, you can take the gun down and get the leading out but it is a major pain in the *** to do so repeatedly (while making less than stellar accuracy while doing so).

There is no solution to the Savage muzzle loader issue (not yet anyway).

Go to the in-line Savage rifle boards to research this particular issue, it isn't POLITICALLY CORRECT to discuss it here as it is upsetting to the holy black traditionalists.


Heck, Oldfeller, I think this is a good place to discuss it, as there is a lot of years of shooting behind most of us. I think the nail is being squarely hit upon the head, in the fact that the new inlines, are performing in a fashion that defeats the safety purpose, of muzzleloading seasons, and areas.

jh45gun
10-29-2006, 02:20 AM
Oldfeller I never said I was a black powder traditionalist I have shot pyrodex and 777 and Cleanshot. I think I will be going back to black though as the subs leave a bit to be desired. I have a inline and have a red dot on my underhammer and a scope on my inline though I cannot use that during our muzzle loader season as it is a old Weaver 2.5x with a post and we can only have 1 x scopes as of now. I can live with all of it to the point of the smokeless muzzle loaders I have to draw the line at that.

ourway77
11-20-2006, 06:38 AM
Gentlrman too each his own, I personally like my Savage ML'er. #1 When I shoot at game I see if the hit was good, not a face full of smoke. #2 after I shoot the rifle and come home I don't have the burden of cleaning the ML'er as smokeless powder is not corrosive, run dry patch down the barrel, reload and am ready for the next shot. There has been so much negative feedback by people are only repeating what they heard or the outfits such as Bass Pro shop or others that don't sell them. Being sort of lazy, that is why I like the #2 post. Don't get me wrong I own several ML'ers and like them all, We live in America and as Americans we still have somewhat of a choice. So for all of you shoot what you like, shoot them well, :Fire: Lou

Maven
11-20-2006, 08:49 PM
Just a couple of questions: Is the Savage "ML" still being made because I haven't seen an ad for one lately? Didn't Layne Simpson test this rifle with both smokeless (H/IMR 4227?) and BP (Pyro.?) loads and find almost identical velocity & accuracy? Has anyone read Randy Wakeman's glowing review of it, i.e., the updated one with the Accu-trigger? Irrespective of whether in-lines are a good thing or not, don't you think the dual-powder* concept is rather innovative?


*As I recall, the rifle was designed to operate within a certain pressure range. Ergo, only one smokeless propellant and either BP or Pyro. was deemed appropriate. If you own one, have you tried some other powder besides H/IMR 4227?

jh45gun
11-25-2006, 01:40 AM
Gentlrman too each his own, I personally like my Savage ML'er. #1 When I shoot at game I see if the hit was good, not a face full of smoke. #2 after I shoot the rifle and come home I don't have the burden of cleaning the ML'er as smokeless powder is not corrosive, run dry patch down the barrel, reload and am ready for the next shot. There has been so much negative feedback by people are only repeating what they heard or the outfits such as Bass Pro shop or others that don't sell them. Being sort of lazy, that is why I like the #2 post. Don't get me wrong I own several ML'ers and like them all, We live in America and as Americans we still have somewhat of a choice. So for all of you shoot what you like, shoot them well, :Fire: Lou

Thats fine and dandy lou but then why did you get into muzzle loading in the first place? If you do not like the smoke do not like to clean them why bother? To me Muzzle loaders have a certain charm that a modern rifle just does not have. Like I said before using smokeless powder in a savage gun is like a caseless centerfire.

Lloyd Smale
11-25-2006, 05:38 AM
my take on it is if its leagual use it. The same compliants are made by traditional bow hunters about the componds and cross bows and to me its no different then two guys going hunting one with a 3030 shooting cast and the other with a 30 mag bolt with a 4x12 scope. Its not anyones place to tell me or anyone else what to hunt with as long as its within the law. Im sure the guys that shoot flintlocks will complain that the guys using percusion caps are cheating too.

jh45gun
11-25-2006, 01:54 PM
my take on it is if its leagual use it. The same compliants are made by traditional bow hunters about the componds and cross bows and to me its no different then two guys going hunting one with a 3030 shooting cast and the other with a 30 mag bolt with a 4x12 scope. Its not anyones place to tell me or anyone else what to hunt with as long as its within the law. Im sure the guys that shoot flintlocks will complain that the guys using percusion caps are cheating too.

You are right if it is legal no problems using it. I just hope it does not complicate the muzzle loading rules down the line that is my problem since it does not use black powder or a substitute. That is my issue with it.

lefty_red
12-01-2006, 12:45 PM
This is the reason I quit going to rendveuos and playing dress up!

I think the break open design has REALLY hurt the "bolt" action MLs. Its just easier to use for alot of folks. I can pick up ALOT of high quality bolts cheap. Shops around here ain't moving them.

Also, if you want to help ban sertain weapons for hunting, go ahead and join the next PETA walk on your state capital. Maybe together you can ban the "evil" weapons and "protect" the public!

Why does inlines get a bad wrap and its all good for sidelocks? I have yet talked to or heard a "modern" shooter badmouth a "tradition" firearm. Most are jealous that they can't shoot one, or don't have the time to learn it. But you get a "traditionalist" and their HOLIER THAN THOU additude, and its OK to prejudge everyone and how its wrong to use this or that!

I could really careless how much "knowledge" someone offers if they are biggots! If you really want to be a purist, use a damn matchlock.

Lefty

waksupi
12-02-2006, 01:19 AM
This is the reason I quit going to rendveuos and playing dress up!

I think the break open design has REALLY hurt the "bolt" action MLs. Its just easier to use for alot of folks. I can pick up ALOT of high quality bolts cheap. Shops around here ain't moving them.

Also, if you want to help ban sertain weapons for hunting, go ahead and join the next PETA walk on your state capital. Maybe together you can ban the "evil" weapons and "protect" the public!

Why does inlines get a bad wrap and its all good for sidelocks? I have yet talked to or heard a "modern" shooter badmouth a "tradition" firearm. Most are jealous that they can't shoot one, or don't have the time to learn it. But you get a "traditionalist" and their HOLIER THAN THOU additude, and its OK to prejudge everyone and how its wrong to use this or that!

I could really careless how much "knowledge" someone offers if they are biggots! If you really want to be a purist, use a damn matchlock.

Lefty

Red, the reason I don't like them, is because of thier design flaws. They are inferior, if looked at objectively.

Bet that raises some hackles, but I believe it to be true.

jh45gun
12-02-2006, 02:53 AM
To add my two cents again I never said I was against inlines I have a NEF Huntsman 50 cal and my 32 cal project gun is a inline. The only thing I object too is using smokeless powder in a muzzle loader! You should keep at least ONE thing primative or they may just start saying why bother with the muzzle loader in the first place the only thing your missing is the brass case.

rockrat
12-02-2006, 12:09 PM
If I remember the rules that are now in effect here in Colorado (haven't hunted primitive in years--can't seem to draw a tag), that make the black/smokeless question moot. If you are hunting during black powder season, then you must use black powder(or one of the subs) ONLY. If you use smokeless in your front stuffer , then you can only use it during rifle season. Problem solved. :drinks:

jh45gun
12-02-2006, 02:47 PM
If I remember the rules that are now in effect here in Colorado (haven't hunted primitive in years--can't seem to draw a tag), that make the black/smokeless question moot. If you are hunting during black powder season, then you must use black powder(or one of the subs) ONLY. If you use smokeless in your front stuffer , then you can only use it during rifle season. Problem solved. :drinks:


As it should be!

Old Ironsights
12-05-2006, 07:30 PM
Fast Twist Inline = Caseless Ammunition Centerfire Rifle, not "muzzleloader".

They can be, and are excellent rifles. But they are centerfire rifles and should be treated as such.

Put a lead conical or patched round ball down one and a 150y/o flintlock will out shoot it.

Put a Sabot and spitzer in it and it will out shoot not a few .308s.

They are entirely different games and should NOT be treated equally.

jh45gun
12-06-2006, 03:28 AM
Fast Twist Inline = Caseless Ammunition Centerfire Rifle, not "muzzleloader".

They can be, and are excellent rifles. But they are centerfire rifles and should be treated as such.

Put a lead conical or patched round ball down one and a 150y/o flintlock will out shoot it.

Put a Sabot and spitzer in it and it will out shoot not a few .308s.

They are entirely different games and should NOT be treated equally.

I have a fast twist NEF Huntsman 50 and a Underhammer 54 cal fast twist both of them are 1 in 28 but I use Lead Conicals in both and black powder. No sabots or modern bullets.

Slamfire
12-07-2006, 11:48 PM
The fastest twist I use is a 1 in 38". I'm not agin inlines as they don't bother me none where I'm huntin'. As long as I can use PRBs when I want, you can use conicals or sabots. :razz:

medic44
01-01-2007, 12:58 AM
We keep talking about saftey. Most hunting accidents happen at ranges of 10 yds or less. At these ranges shotgun w/ slug, and or ML are more lethal than most centerfire. PETA et all just want to limit your use of a firearm!!!!!!!!