SAECO 352 in the .35W

[Marlin Junky]

It'll be a couple weeks before I get my .35W in hand but I thought in the mean time a little preparation would be in order. BTW, the Whelen will be in the form of a Handi-Rifle. Earlier this year I was contemplating a Ballard Rifle Co. (Cody, WY) 1885 High Wall in .35 Whelen (26" barrel) but decided before committing that much dough, I'd better know as much about the Whelen as possible. So... the H-R is kind of a testing platform.

I've got a SAECO #352 cut on new tooling (it was sent to me directly from Redding after I mailed them a mold with undersized cavities) and I want to develop a "push-the-limit" type handload with this number in the Whelen. I've got a few of the Accurate Data powders slower than AA2230-C, plenty of clip-on variety WW metal and .357Maximum's formula for high velocity lube with plenty of ingredients. Instead of alloying my WW metal with something containing Sb, I thought I might add some 50/50 solder to the WW metal to help fill-out and just heat treat if things started going haywire above 2200fps. I want to get some expansion all the way out to 250 yards with this boolit which should weigh 240 grains plus, checked. About the fill-out thing though: Since I've been using my Magma Master Caster, I've been using less and less Sn while increasing the temp a bit and have noticed my cavity fill-out is fine. My bullets aren't quite as shinny with less tin, but I don't really care about that as long as they still shoot 1.5 MOA.

On the ductility subject (I'm looking for expansion out to 250 yards) I'm wondering at this point if a couple percent tin aids in ductility. If the only function of about 2% tin is to aid in fill-out, I'd rather cast at 850F and not need to add tin at all. If on the other hand, the addition of a couple percent tin will make the booilts less susceptible to fracturing, it'll be worth the additional cost to add tin in the form of solder... usually salvaged 50/50 solder. Then there's the lead free solder which has other stuff in it that sheds a whole different light on the subject.

I've shot a lot of boolits through 30-30s and 06's (with reduced loads) over the years with exceptional results but have never really exceeded 2200fps so any help would be appreciated. My goal is to use the Whelen with cast bullets for all my deer-family hunting in the west and I think SAECO 352 cast soft enough for a little expansion out to 250 yards should be fine. Problem is, I've got to make it leave the barrel at 2500 fps and be consistently stable.

MJ

[Bass Ackward]

My goal is to use the Whelen with cast bullets for all my deer-family hunting in the west and I think SAECO 352 cast soft enough for a little expansion out to 250 yards should be fine.

Problem is, I've got to make it leave the barrel at 2500 fps and be consistently stable.

MJ

MJ,

I think you are going to have a problem at that bullet weight. 2500 fps is all you can get out of a Whelen with a 250 jacketed at 60,000 psi. Odds are against ya.

But then if I understand what you are wanting, I think that you may be surprised that you don't really need that anyway. Especially depending on the size of the game. Bigger game expands bullets faster and at slower velocities. And while a lot of rifling types shoot lead at cast type velocities, you need rifling height and smooth bores to shoot soft lead at higher velocities. Will you have that and where will your accuracy point be velocity wise?

Using my ACWW mix that includes 2% tin, (14 BHN) I can expand my bullet designs with 60% meplats down to 1500 fps on small bodied deer surprisingly well. When I launch those at 2200 fps, I am good out to 225 yards. If I want more on the low end, then I hollow point which allows me to expand on down to 900 fps. But when I hollow point, I can pick up another 50 fps muzzle too.

I shot one deer at over 200 yards just to see what I could expect and it was a fluke as she died faster than stuff I have shot up close. Velocity should have been right around 1500 fps.

I just don't shoot game over 200 yards because I am shooting at the animal as opposed to a spot .... on the animal.

[Marlin Junky]

Bass,

Well maybe I'll shoot for 2400 something instead of 2500. Not knowing much about the Whelen is what prompted me to invest lightly in the H-R. I'm working under the assumption that 2500 fps (from a 22" barrel) is a safe load with a 250 grain jacketed bullet so a 240-245 grain cast bullet at 2500 fps should produce somewhat less pressure albeit hopefully not too much for the cast bullet. I think I will start the experimenting with something like a case full of 2520.

MJ

[Bass Ackward]

MJ,

Well, it a new adventure. And those just don't come around often enough anymore.

Some patterns for you. All loads used WLP primer.

Group 1 All bullets 14 BHN

210 grain: 2400 fps w/54 grains pf RL15
220 gr: 2300 fps w/52 grains of RL15
250 gr: 2100 fps w/46 grains of RL15 Used .5cc PSB filler
265 gr 1900 fps w/ 44 grains of RL15

All loads produced @ 32,000 psi which was the limit of my mix / hardness before leading began.


Group 2

250 grain lead at 14 BHN
40 grains of 4895 2000
42 grains of 4064 2030
46 grains of RL15 or 4320 2050 (without filler)


58 grains of RL22 or H-4831 2200

You can fill in the space inbetween once you see the pattern and adjust accordingly.

Remember, these were all pistol primers. Rifle primers would lower loads slightly. PSB raises pressure range upper limit by about 3000 psi before leading begins with 14 BHN lead.

Have fun. HTHs.

[Marlin Junky]

Thanks Bass!

Hey, how did that 58 grain charge of Re22 shoot? Was that a 100% density load? Maybe I'll give my DP85 (like Ramshot Hunter) a try first. Were you using Hornady checks?

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

I checked some sized/primed .35 Whelen brass I had picked up at the range ages ago for volume and it looks like there's room for about 62 grains of DP85 under SAECO 352 if I pour the powder in slowly. Accurate's website claims DP85 is very close to Ramshot Hunter which sits between the 4350's and Reloader19 on the charts. I found the following data on Alliant's website:

Hornady 250RN; Rem. case; 3.225" COL; 24" bbl; Rem. 9.5M; 59.5 grains Reloader 15; 2,550 fps; 48,400 c.u.p.

Any comments on the case full of DP85 under SAECO 352? Heck, assuming I'll be able to chamber a round loaded with 352 seated to the crimping groove, I think I'm going to start at 60 grains DP85! I'm sure the recoil and muzzle blast from the H-R will be impressive. I may go with 425F heat treated boolits to start though. When I heat treat my boolit metal in question to 450F for one hour I end up with BHN 21+ boolits so maybe 425F will give me about BHN 18. Input from experienced heat treaters will be appreciated.

MJ

[Bass Ackward]

Was that a 100% density load? Maybe I'll give my DP85 (like Ramshot Hunter) a try first. Were you using Hornady checks?

MJ


Mj,

Hornady checks. And yes it was close enough to 100% to call it that with RL22. But if you notice, most of the loads use RL15. That is because the slower stuff burns so dirty, that it affects the accuracy if you have a one diameter bullet.

Did RL22 shoot? Yes for about 8 shots, then you had to dry patch. I actually got more out of it if I dropped to 56 grains and used PSB. Shot cleaner. Bullet design can help a lot here.

Some things you need to realize.

1. I couldn't do this right off with 14 BHN. The gun had to be broken in first and I had about 180 rounds of jacketed before this was possible. My fathers barrel only took about 30 and it was the same make barrel. So don't get discouraged if it doesn't happen for you right off.

2. If you have to go to a harder mix, then your velocity targets for expansion have to go up as well. And you will need a wider nose design than you do slower. So it is a zero some game at longer ranges and actually trails off in my opinion. Unless .... you use special techniques like annealing noses or two hardness bullets. Or hollow pointing. And in my case, the loads I quoted ya were all sub MOA with 14 BHN. No other BHN has come close so far. So .... I like to stay soft.

Make sure you keep us informed. Most guys never report back on their results. Guys always like Handi results.

[Marlin Junky]

Bass,

I'm not sure why you didn't try rifle primers but I think I've got a large quantity of Fed 215's that I'm planning on diving into for my Whelen project. I'm also glad I've got this lonely jug of "Hunter" sitting around. At this point I'm trying to think of the best (easiest, most foolproof) method of selectively heat treating my 352's... hmmm how to harden the shank while leaving the nose relatively soft?? I guess that can be accomplished by standing the heat treated boolits in a pan of water while tempering the noses with a propane torch but I'd be afraid of melting the noses on boolits which have already consumed lots of time and effort in their "manufacture".

Thanks for all your input,

MJ

P.S. When I start getting reportable results I'll begin a thread called "352 in the Handi-Rifle". Unfortunately that won't be for a couple months 'cause I got a 2 to 3 week Thanksgiving family thing to attend in PA. Oh yeah, I may want to fire-lap the H-R's barrel so it's smoooth too!

[jhalcott]

I chronoed my whelen testerday with a 358318 bullet and got 1995 average fps . The load is 44/varget/wlr primers. I flat nosed some of them for expansion tests. The alloy is a lyman #2 mix. I had this gun built the year before Remington decided to bring theirs out! I've used it on a bunch of deer with both jacketed and cast bullets. It thumps on both ends when you feed it heavy slugs.

[Marlin Junky]

I chronoed my whelen testerday with a 358318 bullet and got 1995 average fps . The load is 44/varget/wlr primers. I flat nosed some of them for expansion tests. The alloy is a lyman #2 mix. I had this gun built the year before Remington decided to bring theirs out! I've used it on a bunch of deer with both jacketed and cast bullets. It thumps on both ends when you feed it heavy slugs.

So what did your expansion tests reveal? The reason I want to exceed 2400 fps is to flatten out the trajectory for the 250 shots that sometimes need to be taken while hunting the west.

MJ

[Bass Ackward]

I'm not sure why you didn't try rifle primers but I think I've got a large quantity of Fed 215's that I'm planning on diving into for my Whelen project.


MJ,

I have tried rifle primers. And magnums too. But the highest velocities comes from pistol primers. My theory is because you are starting the bullet off more .... gently.

Take the 46 grains of RL15 with the 250 grain bullet with a WLP at 2050 fps.

For a Rem 9 1/2 primer it's 45 grains @ 2000 fps.

For a CCI its 44 1/2 grains at about 1950.

For a Fed 215 it is 43 1/2 grains at @1900 fps.

All because pressure is rising faster with more heat from the primer. It works that way with everything I have ever shot. That is until the pistol primer will no longer ignite a powder properly. Say in this case, H-870 would be a waste of a pistol primer as ignition would not be properly achieved. The pistol primer in this case wins the accuracy battle too.

And I understand the family thing in PA too. I have been told that I must attend a family thing next August out in Gillette.

[Paul5388]

I shoot cast in 3 Handi rifles and tend to have a whole lot better success if I stay around 1600 fps or less, even with GC bullets. I don't believe they are true micro groove barrels, but they are shallow grooved.

If you can manage to get 8 pounds of total weight in that Handi, including the scope, the recoil with 59 gr of powder and a 250 gr bullet at 2550 fps is going to be 30+ ft lbs. That's right up there with Marlin level .45-70s in a Handi.

[Marlin Junky]

Paul5388,

How deep are the grooves? People (Lyman tech staff included) used to say that Micro-Grooved Marlins don't shoot cast bullets well above 1600 fps until they tried a little fatter boolit.

MJ

[Bret4207]

Based on my experience with the 35 Whelen and a variety of other guns, I'll make the following suggestion. Rather than shooting for a max load right off the bat why don't you see how things go at say 16-1800fps with your gun and boolit? Then work up from there. I've done the "max load off the bat" thing and I never figured out what component was screwing things up. Just a a suggestion.

BTW- When you use the 35W and a 250 and start pushing things upwards velocity-wise you'll find she becomnes a whole 'nuther animal in the recoil dept. Those Handi-s aren't real heavy to start with and the stock design isn't the best for heavy recoil.

If yoou want flatter trajectory why not go to a 200 gr booilt?

[Marlin Junky]

I'll shoot 180 and 200, or for that matter, 140 grain boolits in my Whelen for fun but I also own a .35 Remington which does very well with 200 to 210 grain boolits. In the Whelen, I'm looking for a 250 yard elk destroyer/moose masher.

If the H-R Whelen lives up to my expectations, I'll probably invest more money in a more refined .35W single shot and subsequently install a .410 or 20ga barrel on the H-R for pest control around the house.

If I can't get the H-R Whelen to shoot accurately with something like SAECO 352 at 2200 fps right off the bat, then I know I'm wasting my time with it so I'll probably send the action to the factory for a different barrel... something like a .357 or a 45-70 or a .500S&W or a .22 Hornet... or a 38-55!

MJ