Flatten primer question.

[nes4ever69]

I see talk that flatten primers means high pressure even a maybe part. I load up some lee 240 grn tumble lube for my 44 mag. and the load data i got from hodgdon was start of 7grn.? max of 10 grn. of Titegroup. I loaded 8 grains and would have squib loads were the primers were flat. Even if I run 9.5 grn. the primers are still flat.

I use CCI primers.

I'm just wondering, I check the cases and don't see any cracks and they are not hard to pull out.

Oh the point were the fireing pin hits never is blown out, never flatten. It's always a divit.

[rbstern]

I've seen factory boxed ammo that flattens primers. Primer flattening is an indication of high pressure, but not necessarily an indication of overpressure.

The brand and type of primer also matters. Some primers have a thinner and/or softer cup than others, and will flatten more easily. What primers are you using for these loads?

In an ideal world, you have a chronograph to check the velocity. In the meantime, double check your loads to make sure you are weighing and/or measuring correctly. If you are confident of the charge weight, I'd say you are ok.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Not all revolvers Produce the same results on a primer.
Rough cylinder walls will cause a case to grip better than lets say polished cylinder walls.
A fatter cylinder will generate less pressure than a tighter cylinder usisng the same load.
A tighter throat diameter, tighter bore and again there easily owuld be diferences in how smashed flat a primer was.
Then there are primers themselves... softer cubs smash flatter.
So just going by " Flat Primers" can be missleading.
Loading manuals generally can be trusted... Put together 5 of them and you will have a good idea what the industry feels is safe. I shoot mostly 45 Colt and 41 Mag when I am up NORTH there. I use numerous manuals to get a feel for a new load.. ask questions here and there... But I sure do not trust just looking at how flat is a primer.
If I realy do need more power I still can get out a bigger revolver but I do not think I will ever see a wooly mamoth getting ready to eat the last of the cherry tomatoes.

[mpmarty]

A flattened primer may also indicate excessive headspace. The cartridge is driven forward by the firing pin and if headspace is excessive on firing the primer backs out of the case until it impacts the standing breech or bolt face flattening the primer, then the pressure rises and the case is stretched back until it too impacts the breech face and reseats the now flattened primer.

[fredj338]

There are flattened primers & there are flattend primers. If you can't see any space around the edge of the primer, that is truely a pressure issue. FWIW, if you want light plinkers, dump the TG, try TrailBoss or even RedDot is a better bet IME.

[nes4ever69]

There are flattened primers & there are flattend primers. If you can't see any space around the edge of the primer, that is truely a pressure issue. FWIW, if you want light plinkers, dump the TG, try TrailBoss or even RedDot is a better bet IME.

Ok, that makes sense. They are flatten, but I can see space around the edge.

I have used Trail Boss. Im highly tempted to just stricly use that for my 44, and as soon as I free up some brass im gonna try it in my 500.

[1Shirt]

What Fred says is good common sense. When primers are flattened to the point that you see no space, you have flat primers. If in addition, the fireing pin produces in addition to no space on the rim, craters where the primer has started to flow back on the pin, you definately have a source of pressure, and it is probably excessive.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[243winxb]

I loaded 8 grains and would have squib loads were the primers were flat. Are you sure you had a "squib"
A squib load is a firearms malfunction in which a fired projectile does not have enough force behind it to exit the barrel, and thus becomes stuck. This type of malfunction can be extremely dangerous, as failing to notice that the projectile has become stuck in the barrel may result in another round being fired directly into the obstructed barrel, resulting in a catastrophic failure of the weapon's structural integrity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squib_load

[frkelly74]

I guess I use the look of the primer to judge whether something has changed from load to load pressurewise. If they are nice and rounded around the perimeter I feel safe. If they are not rounded , that is a caution. In general, If it looks different I have to wonder what has changed. If they look the way they always have looked, I figure I must be okay.

[nes4ever69]

Are you sure you had a "squib" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squib_load

Yeah, the bullet would go just engough to lock the cylinder to were I cant shoot no more. Not a wimpy load that just didn't kick, it never fully left the cylinder.


I was reading anouther thread and it got me scratching my head and thinking huh. But I now have a better understanding.

[220swiftfn]

I hate to say it, but if you're saying that 8 gr. of TG isn't even getting the slug out of the cylinder, you REALLY need to make sure that there's powder in the case before you seat the bullet. Anything more than just a primer will get a bullet in the bore more than that.


Dan

[405]

Some flattening is normal except in EXTREMELY mild loads. Some primers are harder than others. There are two possible causes of a REAL DEAL flattened primer. 1)excess headspace. 2)really high pressure.

[357shooter]

I've had a bullet pull out of the case (I didn't know it at the time), the cylinder still rotated and fired. It seemed like a squib load and the bullet was part in the cylinder and part into the barrel, then locking the cylinder. So it seemed like a squib, but was really the bullet doing a jump crimp. It was just short enough to let the cylinder advance, then pop... there was a bunch of loose powder afterward. Took awhile to figure it out... just thinking as sometimes these things aren't obvious.

[Bloodman14]

Yeah, the bullet would go just engough to lock the cylinder to were I cant shoot no more. Not a wimpy load that just didn't kick, it never fully left the cylinder.


I was reading anouther thread and it got me scratching my head and thinking huh. But I now have a better understanding.

Now, THAT'S a squib! Thank GOD that it locked up the cylinder, so that you had a mechanical indicator of something seriously wrong! Double check your loads VISUALLY, so you know that there is powder in the case; I would agree that the primers are flattened due to the case being pushed forward by the firing pin, and setting back upon firing.
Welcome aboard! You will find almost ALL your answers here.

[Dframe]

A flattened primer may also indicate excessive headspace. The cartridge is driven forward by the firing pin and if headspace is excessive on firing the primer backs out of the case until it impacts the standing breech or bolt face flattening the primer, then the pressure rises and the case is stretched back until it too impacts the breech face and reseats the now flattened primer.
I was going to weigh in on this issue but mpmarty has beaten me to the punch. He is exactly right.

[nes4ever69]

I hate to say it, but if you're saying that 8 gr. of TG isn't even getting the slug out of the cylinder, you REALLY need to make sure that there's powder in the case before you seat the bullet. Anything more than just a primer will get a bullet in the bore more than that.


Dan
The only thing I progressive load is 9mm on my Load Master. Those were hand loaded, weight checked by scale, powder put in one at a time. If im right about my data 10 being max (as told by Hodgdon when I called) minus 10% for a start 9 grn should have been minimum, not the 7 they said. Since then I have used 9.5 grn and they work better.

See from that, being a squib and flat primer I wondered about it, was reading alot here how some say over pressure and it had me wondering. It might be a head space issue. Smith And Wesson 629 Classic is the gun. I got it used 4 years ago and have sent alot down range.

[nes4ever69]

Now, THAT'S a squib! Thank GOD that it locked up the cylinder, so that you had a mechanical indicator of something seriously wrong! Double check your loads VISUALLY, so you know that there is powder in the case; I would agree that the primers are flattened due to the case being pushed forward by the firing pin, and setting back upon firing.
Welcome aboard! You will find almost ALL your answers here.

There is so much info here, and everybody is helpfull when something weird comes up.

[243winxb]

Squib Cause- No powder or not enough powder--Undersize bullet diameter, light bullet pull, powder can not burn correctly because its not building pressure. Contaminated Powder from lube or oil/water. Correct bullet diameter is .430" Does seating a bullet cause the case to expand .002" or more, compared to a sized/expanded empty case? Having never used Titegroup , i might guess it may need a magnum primer? :coffeecom

[nes4ever69]

Squib Cause- No powder or not enough powder--Undersize bullet diameter, light bullet pull, powder can not burn correctly because its not building pressure. Contaminated Powder from lube or oil/water. Correct bullet diameter is .430" Does seating a bullet cause the case to expand .002" or more, compared to a sized/expanded empty case? Having never used Titegroup , i might guess it may need a magnum primer? :coffeecom

i up'ed it to 9.5 grn. of tg, i think i had 1 bad round out of 150 the last time i shot it.

[220swiftfn]

The only other thing that I can think of that hasn't been mentioned is the crimp. I just looked on the Hodgdon site and on there the range is 4.7 to 10 grains of titegroup for a 240 cast swc, so yeah, it's a headscratcher for sure....

Dan

[nes4ever69]

i did some checking, there is a lot of room for the rounds to bounce in on my revolver. from all the input, thank you, it would be when a round is fired slamming the case back flattening things.

there is a thread going that i read that got me wondering and i read on the net how people say man that was some high pressure. i think back to those squibs with flat primers and it had me wondering.

[eagle27]

I've seen factory boxed ammo that flattens primers. Primer flattening is an indication of high pressure, but not necessarily an indication of overpressure.

The brand and type of primer also matters. Some primers have a thinner and/or softer cup than others, and will flatten more easily. What primers are you using for these loads?

In an ideal world, you have a chronograph to check the velocity. In the meantime, double check your loads to make sure you are weighing and/or measuring correctly. If you are confident of the charge weight, I'd say you are ok.

rb you are so on the button. A chronograph is really the only way to get a handle on reloads. Primer flattening can indicate high pressure but high pressure (not over pressure) is fine in some high intensity cartridges, the 44 mag being one of them. Here is a photo of a fire factory load in 7x61 S&H with the primer quite flattened. The Schultz and Larsen rifles chambered for this round have been tested to 120,000psi with no problems arising with the rifles. These factory rounds eject normally and with careful resizing, as should be done for any belted case, last for many more reloads.

In loading for revolvers there are a few indicators that can be used, primer flattening only one of these but this can be influenced by a number of factors such as primer 'softness', set back, etc. Chronys are cheap and well worth while if reloading.
http://i606.photobucket.com/albums/tt146/Lindsayb_01/7x61SH.jpg

[243winxb]

The load of 8.0 grs you are using is fine, The squib is you main problem to work on now. Maybe the problem starts with the primers, but i guess not, unless your not seating them fully. The primers should be flush to .004" below the case head. Click photobucket link below to see high pressure in primers.

[trk]

I noticed a couple of days ago (it warmed up to almost 40) shooting the same loads in 3 different rifles that the primer flatening was different.

Most everything (ALL reasonable loads) was flat in the Colt AR.
Primers were more rounded and pushed back in the CZ527 and FP110.
All cases were LC and sized at the same time.
3 different loads (working up accuracy loads).