Casting, quality and cost

[chili dipper]

Hey all,
What I love about reloading is the combo of cost savings and better quality ammo than wwb, s&b, etc. But it seems with casting, best result would be my home cast boolit being just as good as what's available commercially.

The cost savings don't seem as clear cut either. I load .45 near the USPSA minimum power factor. So I'd have to mess around with different alloys. Something I'd rather not deal with as a beginner. Seems a good option would be rotometals Hardball Bullet Casting Alloy, since they're local it's about $2.40 a pound. Hardly any cost savings over commercial options.

Just my rambling thoughts as someone thinking about casting. Maybe I'd just like casting as a hobby even with the neglible cost savings. Do you guys

[runfiverun]

if you just wanna shoot cast and what you buy works fine,, cool.
if you got a problem how ya gonna fix it?

[onondaga]

I've been casting bullets since 1957 when I was 7 years old. I stopped using any jacketed bullets completely over 10 years ago. The calibers I load are .223, 30-30, .308, .458 Win Mag, .500 S&W Mag. and 12 Ga slugs. I cast in several other calibers for friends also. It is very easy to save a lot of money with calibers that have really expensive projectile cost like the .458 and .500.

The alloy you mention from Roto is very versatile and can also be additionally hardened with heat treatment very well to easily bring the BHN up 5-8 or more numbers. Between heat treating and gas checked bullets you can usually match factory ammo velocities. But those will be too hard for hunting and will likely shatter.

Mixing your own alloys is not difficult once you have learned the basics of using your melting pot and casting. The most common complaint new casters have after a year is that they wish they had gotten a bigger pot to start. Jump right in with a 20 pound bottom pour like the one from Lee. I wish I had a 50 pounder when I cast big bullets in multiple cavity molds. I even cast 12 ga slugs and there is only 16 to a pound with those.

When you learn to select and size bullets that fit your firearms and how to work up a load, it is completely reasonable to expect and get accuracy results better than factory ammo every time. That is really why I cast, the savings is a bonus for me. I am pokey, persnickety and very demanding of my own skills casting and reloading, so if you count my own time, even at minimum wage, I am losing serious money!
Gary

[chili dipper]

Thanks for the replies. I already reload cast bullets with great cost savings and better accuracy compared with factory ammo. But I'm wondering if you think the quality of your home cast boolits are as good or better than what's available commercially?

My loads are only moderate nothing too hot. But even with moderate loads, I could not run straight lead, right? Straight lead would only be good for cowboy action velocities?

Actually my morning math was off. Even using rotometals hardball alloy as an example turns out there are savings to be had. for the same amount of money I'd get ~twice the number of bullets. But as you said not accounting for my time. I'd just be doing something like watching stupid pet tricks on youtube anyway if I wasn't reloading or casting.

[captaint]

dipper - So, I'm assuming you're loading/casting for 45ACP?? Having cast a large bunch of boolits for the 45ACP, I can tell you this is a very forgiving cal to cast for. I have cast 200 gr boolits from everything like straight ww's to 50/50 ww's and near pure lead. Have had very few problems and my only accuracy limitation is ME. Once you get your boolit diameter ironed out the rest is just details. Go cast em, shoot em and have fun. Any specific problems, let us know. It'll work out. enjoy Mike

[onondaga]

As far as my personal work casting, I am completely sure my cast bullets are better than commercially cast bullets. Commercially swaged can be better matched because that is inherently more accurate of a process, but on paper, you wont see the difference. They don't weigh them in groups either. Also the bullet lubes and lube precessing can be tailored to your own demands and you will not be limited to what a manufacturer uses or the application method they use.

I am not afraid to hone sizing dies to get exactly the size I want for the bullet that really does fit my firearm. These things come with time.

Gary

[HeavyMetal]

Dipper;
I learned long ago that casting, for me at least, was really a labor of love.

In the end it's how much time you wish to dedicate to quality control and what you find acceptable in your casting.

Commercial cast boolits can meet my standards but then I save no money because the Commercial guy has to spend the time to get my money by equaling my QC standards.

The old saying good work ain't cheap and cheap work ain't good is applied ten fold in the cast boolit arena!

I have said this quote before: you never save money reloading you just shoot more for the same dollar spent!

Casting can help reduce cost in some calibers but this only applies to the cost of the projectile! Once you start putting in rifle or Magnum level powder charges cost go up it's as simple as that.

Cast for the enjoyment and the QC, forget the pennies it'll only give you an ulcer!

[theperfessor]

I have more choices in weight and shape just with the .38 caliber molds I own than any two manufacturer's combined. And in some calibers, such as .41 Mag, I'd only have two or three choices total. Certainly you won't find loaded .41 mag ammo with a full wadcutter loaded to 800 fps from any but a custom reloader.

To me it's about choices and not being limited to certain weights and shapes - and diameters.

[GRUMPA]

Dipper, onondaga says it alot like I would only a bit better. One of your statements read something like "But I'm wondering if you think the quality of your home cast boolits are as good or better than what's available commercially?". Which bring up a valid point, but ANYONE casting their own stuff will soon realize "Why am I gonna find out whos is better when I can make my own for $.0X each. Personally I like the independence I don't HAVE TO rely on anyone\anything for what I need. For giggles IF I go to the local WALLIE-WORLD 108mi round trip just to get what I want BUT can do it at home for 1\4 of the price, make them when I want, how fast I want etc.. Once I found the freedom of independence why on earth would I want to compare my stuff with theirs?

[shdwlkr]

When thinking of why I cast it came to me while reading posts here that I do it because I can and yes my cast bullets sometimes are better than commercial bullets because they are in the exact weight I want and many times there isn't a commercial bullet in that weight. Second I do it as a means of relaxation and fun and as a hobby that interests me. Are they cheaper sometimes sometimes not depends on the cost of the lead how heavy the bullet and if I want to figure in my time into the cost of the bullet.
Heck I thought I had all the molds I needed until just a couple of weeks ago now I am looking at 5 more molds why because I can and that means more fun shooting.
I have been casting lead on and off for the better part of 45 years and still don't know everything and still enjoy adding to my hobby. I hope to get to the point of making my own gas checks, making my own lube maybe and who knows what else, I am hoping to even have a rifle built to my wants one day.

[Guesser]

For me; casting is in large part hand gun. That said, I cast designs long obsolete and generally not available commercially. I cast soft and make my bullets fit. Casting is fun, and if I can make a good product for equal or less, I'm satisfied.

[geargnasher]

You can make boolit casting as simple or as complex as you want depending on the results you wish to obtain. For medium velocity .45 ACP you can use just about anything from range scrap to wheel weights to Lyman #2, if your range scrap needs some tin for better castability then add a little tin solder, same for wheel weights. If you can get lots of scrap lead flashing from roofers, then buy some linotype or similar and add a little to the scrap. Not rocket science. The other thing casting your own improves over most commercial cast is the lube quality, since you will be controlling that, too. You can make lots of cheap lube from many of the good recipes here or buy commercial lube from someone like White Label lubes, or even Javalena 50/50 or similar.

If you progress more into rifle stuff it necessarily gets more complex since there is much less fudge factor involved.

Overall, I can't think of a single instance where I couldn't cast a far better boolit for my specific needs than the commercial guys, but actually needing a custom-tuned mould and alloy is relative to your goals.

You'd be served quite well with a bucket of clip-on wheel weights, a couple rolls of 95/5 solid-core solder or some radiator shop scrap, a Lee six-cavity mould, pro4-20 bottom pour pot, and a .452" push-through Lee sizer/lube kit.

Gear

[lwknight]

The Missouri Bullet Co. is selling hardball alloy for $1.89 per pound.

[FISH4BUGS]

You know, I often ask myself those same questions sometimes. I ask it more often when I am having touble throwing decent bullets with a mould, or fighting with my Star sizer as I am now.
It truly IS a labor of love for many of us. The labor of scrounging, smelting, alloying, casting, resizing and lubing, case prep, reloading and shooting are all part of the deal. That is why it is called a HOBBY. I am lucky in that I have a place to do it - the casting shed. The man cave.
If you have to place some value on your time, then you are missing the best part -a relaxing activity that actually produces something. Do you think someone that knits figures in their time for their finished product? Productivity, however, is very important to me because a fair amount of ammo gets eaten in sub machineguns.
I once had a small lobster boat here and I fished about 25 traps. By the time the summer was over I figured that lobster cost me some $30 a pound, what with bait, a blown engine, lost gear, etc. Considering we could buy lobster at $5 a pound, it really made you think about the joy of it versus the money or the time. I certainly didn't do it for the money - it was for the love of being on the water at 5 a.m., watching the seals, and watching the sun come up. Oh yeah....and I caught some lobsters too.
Casting is like that. There is no earthly way that I could produce ammo at a price to save any money with it....so it certainly isn't the money. After (over some 15 years) buying a bunch of Hensley & Gibbs moulds, Dillon equipment, dies, Star sizer, gas checks, powder, primers, brass for about 10 calibers, etc. etc. I can now cast CHEAP. ...and the quality is better than factory in many cases. But really all I want it to do is go bang and don't lead the barrel.
I also like the ability to choose what I want to shoot, then go into the closet and pick out a couple of hundred rounds, and head for the range. No muss, no fuss. No running to the store to get ammo and finding they don't have any 44 magnums to shoot (at $18.95 for 20 rounds).
I am getting to my happy place in that I will have all the stuff I need for the rest of my days, except maybe more powder and maybe more primers. The time is one thing that costs me NOTHING....and it is far cheaper than therapy!

[94Doug]

All great comments. It's much more than just meeting the standard of commercial boolits. And if I just want to cast 30 boolits, size them to 3 sizes, or try 3 different lubes, I can. If the mould or design is not available in a hp, I send it to Buckshot and have it made into one. Don't like gas checks? Have the ridge milled off. Want something real different? Draw it up and someone out there will make it for you. This is a great Hobby.

Doug

[Beau Cassidy]

While you might not save money today you will save money in the future. Think about how much your ammo cost 10 years ago. Heck- even 5 years ago. At the astronomical rate of inflation in the shooting business it won't take long to amortize the cost of your equipment. You get lead from various local sources- don't buy from a large company. And yes- my bullets are BETTER than anything I can buy because I made them.

[Harter66]

I've been in casting only about 5 years . Started because it was killing me to spend $18 a box for 45Colts and 357s I already knew I was loading 38/357 for $6 a box . I bought some cast and copper plated ,but soon they were costing $38 and 45 per 500. So I bought 4 LEE moulds and got my feet wet. My cost several 1000 boolits later,less time that I spend with kids and lost in self,is around $4/1000 for propane.

[Ole]

There's a special feeling of pride you get when you make something useful (boolits) out of something that most folks would consider junk (scrap lead).

If you're the type of person that would consider the time spent casting a liability or chore, then it's probably not for you.

[geargnasher]

Not to run down the company advertising the product that makes these (in case you recognize the ad), but I couldn't resist posting this. If this is what's considered an advertising-quality boolit, my boolits must be the best in the universe! [smilie=l:

Gear

[462]

My quality control may not be the world's best, but I'd never waste good lube on a boolit like that, let alone advertize it in a gun rag.

[rintinglen]

the Gearnasher said it so well in his comment on the pic.
The difference between my bullets and what I've bought is that I am ruthless--if that bullet ain't perfect, back in the pot it goes and I'll keep on futzing til I get a good one. The commercial casters generally aren't that picky. They are trying to make a living at what I do for fun. They can't afford to spend three hours honing out a sizer die to get it to size .3115 to make a 30 cal boolit fit my father-inlaws Marlin. They can't fiddle with the mixture in the pot-you get what they bought from the smelter. I spend time to make my bullets do what I want, in my guns, at the velocity I want to send them. I've shot 30-06 boolits at 2700 FPS and I've shot them at 750. Not many commercial casters could or would make boolits suitable for such a wide range.
Besides all which, to me, it's fun.

[chili dipper]

Lots of good feedback in this thread thanks for being so helpful.

[Bret4207]

Thanks for the replies. I already reload cast bullets with great cost savings and better accuracy compared with factory ammo. But I'm wondering if you think the quality of your home cast boolits are as good or better than what's available commercially?

My loads are only moderate nothing too hot. But even with moderate loads, I could not run straight lead, right? Straight lead would only be good for cowboy action velocities?

Actually my morning math was off. Even using rotometals hardball alloy as an example turns out there are savings to be had. for the same amount of money I'd get ~twice the number of bullets. But as you said not accounting for my time. I'd just be doing something like watching stupid pet tricks on youtube anyway if I wasn't reloading or casting.

I didn't read through all the responses but- Yes, my boolits are far, far better than what I can buy. My boolits are made to fit my guns, with my loads and perform as I want them to. I'm not stuck wit the typical too hard, undersized commercial castings with lousy lube and crooked gas checks.

[HATCH]

I would say that my quality on the boolits I cast are equal to any commercially available lead projectile.

As far as cost goes....
I shoot mostly 41 mag. It cost me 7.1 cents a round to load that round.
That is using used cases that I already have and new primers.
That is a 220 grain boolit with 8.5 grains of unique.
That is $71 per thousand to cast and load.
Before I started casting and reloading, I would buy loaded ammo @ $40 per 20 shells.
Here is a little chart I made to keep track of cost.
I cast with straight WW and I can buy it for $1 per pound (in ingots)

Cost per Cal
$0.054 38 SP
$0.071 41 mag
$0.066 45 acp
$0.044 9mm mak

That is for loaded ammo
A huge chunk of the cost is primers at 2.3 cents each.
For me casting is relaxing. Just me and the lead.

[onesonek]

I agree with what a lot of other's have said. I am new to casting, so my experience is limited,,,but. I figure if one puts value on their time, there isn't much in savings casting your own. However, the satisfaction of doing something for oneself rather than pay someone to do for you can be priceless.

Unfortunately, the scrounging propects around me are slim to none,,,,all the good sources are spoken for. I buy my boolit alloy's from vendor's here and one other outside source. Those 3 source's as of now have my average cost at $1.12 /lb. I don't figure the equipment cost I bought, ( pots, molds, etc.) which will depreciate out over time. At $1.12/lb, and my average boolit weight (400grs. on 2 calibers and 7 designs/weights) the average cost is under 10 cents with gaschecks and lube. The first, only, and last commercial boolits I bought (300 gr gc) cost me 62 bucks shipped for 200. I'm sure there may be less costly commercial cast out there, but not by much. With that, I saving at a minimum of 40 bucks month in shooting, for a couple hours of casting time. Naturally the cost would be far more if I was shooting the same amount with commerical jacketed bullets.
Then too, I can alter the alloy recipe and boolit size to suit my needs or the firearm's wants. That alone is one major asset I can see in casting. Whereas with commerical the offerings are much more limited (as also mentioned before).
My techniques need some work and practice as of yet, but I will put the quality of mine next to or better than what I bought.

[Moonie]

I enjoy shooting, casting and reloading in that order. :)

I have time and access to do casting, reloading and shooting in that order. :(

I have a friend with a couple of tons of ww ingots he and his father smelted 20+ years ago, before his father died. Friend doesn't cast or shoot, sells me the ingots for .50/lb, casting costs are very low and I do not count my time into the cost because I enjoy doing it.

[chili dipper]

Okay just have to decide on a few things then I'm placing my order with grafs. You guys helped so much with my decision.

Before I started this thread, I called a friend because if someone could get me a source for lead it would be him. The kind of guy that has everyone on his cellphone. But he had me wavering on casting. Not based on any knowledge of the subject, just reinforced the usual newcomer negative thoughts I already had.

Hopefully I'll like it just as much as reloading.

[nes4ever69]

I found I think here a realoding calculator, and even found the numbers for other things in calculating. I'll run some of the numbers I remember here:
500 magnum- $0.27 to $0.32 per round with cast, $1.30 with barnes xpb bullets.
9mm- $.03 per round cast
44 magnum- $.09 cast I think.

Obviously if I get free lead, the cost goes down. If their is a spike in powder or primer prices the cost goes up. Having paid $2.00 a round for 500 mag. ammo and constently having duds vs. shot 100's of reloads with 1 dud.

I never factor time, one reason, is a choice- eithor watch tv or reload. Play on the internet or reload. Play video games or reload. Sit around doing nothing or reload.

[fredj338]

I would not cast my own plinking bullets if I had to pay much more than $1.50/# for alloy. AT $2.40/#, you can buy them delivered to your home cheaper. FWIW, low pressure 45acp loads can be made w/ 50/50 lead & hardball if you can't find ww to alloy lead with. Range scrap also makes perfectly good bullets for 45acp & 38sp or even midrange 9mm & 40 loads.
It is a labot of love, but one has to be practical. I enjoy casting, but not if it cost me more to get bullets for plinking. Yes, my csat bullets are likley better than most commercial, but again, for plinking, do I really want to invest that much time if the final cost is the same? Right now I woudl say no, but once you have the gear, yo unever know when you may fall into say a ton of scrap lead or cheap lino or whatever.