Cast my 1st boolits today

[Jal5]

Cast about 70 boolits using the range scrap ingots I smelted at the beginning of the month. These are wadcutters from the old Lyman mould #35891 using my Lyman 10# ladle pot. I got into a rhythm after a little bit and counted a fast 12 once the mould filled to break the sprue, and at first I dropped the boolits right away but noticed these were wrinkled and deformed around the nose- the picture with the white background paper. The second batch are on the food store paper and they turned out a little better. By then I was counting a fast 12 to cut the sprue and another 12 before I dropped the boolits. All boolits dropped quickly and I set the mold back up on the furnace ledge to warm up before pouring again. Boolits were dropped onto a terrycloth towel.

So what suggestions can you give me on technique or alloy composition so that I get better filled out boolits, less wrinkles or deformities, etc.? I think I like this casting hobby! But I do need to set up a better casting table, higher so I don't have to bend at the waist so much and with a hood to draw the fumes...garage door open even 2 in. on a 25 degree day isn't going to cut it.
Thanks for the help.


Joe

[HATCH]

I am not a pro at it but my suggestions as follows
(1) Increase lead temp
(2) keep the mold hotter

I do a 5 count on cutting the sprue and then a 3 count before opening the mold.
Then I just pour away.
I don't ladle pour, my pot is a bottom pour.

[Moonie]

Ideally you want the sprue to harden within that 5 count, if it doesn't the mold is too hot and you need to slow down. If it hardens in less that a 3 count then speed up your casting tempo and pour a more generous sprue, this will help increase the temp of your mold. I believe your issue is too low mold temp.

You have done the first step to understanding how to cast, you just did it. Keep in mind that you can shoot what you have cast or you can put them all back and remelt, they are your boolits and you're in charge of quality control.

[Shiloh]

Warm up the mold more. The boolits have poor fill with rounded edges.

Shiloh

[Jal5]

Will I have a problem with the lube grooves being somewhat rounded as far as retaining the lube? I will probably try panlubing them.

Joe

[Moonie]

Will I have a problem with the lube grooves being somewhat rounded as far as retaining the lube? I will probably try panlubing them.

Joe

Depends on how you remove them from the lube, push them out then probably, with a cutter then probably not.

It also depends on your lube, some don't stay in perfect grooves well, fun to play with though.

[RayinNH]

Joe before you go through the trouble of lubing them, measure them first. They may well be undersize and give you leading problems.

If you didn't clean your mold well, start with that using hot soapy water and a tooth brush. When the mold is clean, do it again. When that is done, do as suggested already, maybe increase the lead temperature some and the mold temperature by casting faster.

It's all a learning process, and the rejects can be recycled :)...Ray

[Jal5]

I cleaned the mould pretty good the first time with rubbing alcohol figured that would remove any grease, etc. Then I cleaned out the cavities using a toothpick made sure the crevices were free of any junk. Looked pretty clean to me.

I just now tried another batch of 100 using a slightly higher temp and a quicker pour into the mould. Didn't take much time at all once the pot heated up. Turned out much better, almost perfect bunch of boolits. Most of the first batch will get recycled as part of the learning curve!

I checked the first batch and they measured .359 a little large for my gun so these will need to be sized down to .358 which is what the commercial cast boolits are that shoot fine in that M66 S&W.

Thanks for the help, I am off and running now. Got another mould to work up some for the 357 mag plus one for the 9mm Mak.

Joe

[NSP64]

Run it hotter. Mold and lead. Colder outside temp- run hotter. If they are big enough lube em and shoot them. I wait till the sprue just starts to get the depression in it, then cut. The boolit has already hardened even if the sprue looks soft.

[Jal5]

yes hotter was the key. I bumped up the heat in the pot plus I rested the mold directly on the pot rim between filling it and rested the ladle in the molten lead the whole time. Here is a pic of the results.

[.22-10-45]

Hello, jal5, I feel your pain, up here in MI, I cast with garage door all the way open..not much fun in winter! At this time of year, I have a self-timer..when I can't feel my toes, I quit! I see the temp. increase helped..you might try adding a little tin..I usually use 50-50 solder, this usually helps fill-out. Best of luck!

[Jal5]

Yeah MI can't be fun this time of year. But we are both doing better than the East coast, my brother called me said they had about 2 ft. of snow overnight and more coming. NYC will be shut down for a few days at that rate.

Joe

[grubbylabs]

I just cast my first few this A.M as well and while I did learn a few things it was pretty fun. I had to increase my temp as well. I also tried using two molds and it worked out well. I filled one mold then the 2nd. After setting down the 2nd mold I opened up the 1st one and refilled, then opened and refilled the second and refiled. This let me keep the led temp kinda warm without over heating the molds. It worked out kinda well in the end. I dropped about 1/2 in water and the other half on the counter just to see how they all did for hardness.

[Jal5]

Good for you Grubbylabs. Show us a picture!
I have to try that 2 moulds routine.

Joe

[grubbylabs]

I will get some pics up soon.

[runfiverun]

i open the sprue cutter by [gloved] hand.

you can feel it's ready with some practice. the first couple of pours i usually knock open and reject without looking at them. as soon as i can run by hand i'm off and going.
as soon as the sprue hardens i open and dump. without waiting for it to change colors.

with my rcbs 22 mold the puddle is almost solidified when i open it.
little boolits big mold needs speed.

each mold is a bit different and you'll gain speed and the touch with practice.

[troy_mclure]

i open the sprue by hand, as soon as the puddle hazes i cut.

[Jal5]

i open the sprue by hand, as soon as the puddle hazes i cut.

I found that this worked best for me too with that SC mould. I got a certain speed going after a while. All part of the learning curve I guess. Keeping the heat up was the key though, it was pretty cold in the garage.

Joe

[mdi]

Try shooting the .359" boolits before you size some. May just be perfect. What size are the cylinder throats? You did slug them, didn't you?...

[Echo]

+1 for checking to see if the rounds loaded with the .359 boolits will chamber, and shoot. And I suggest using LLA for lubing, rather than pan-lubing, unless you are going to REALLY push these boolits. And I agree to the addition of a touch of Sn. can't hurt, and will probably help. May be able to shoot as cast, with minimal effort involved in lubing. Should work just fine in the 66, if they have a good fit to the chamber throat.

[Doby45]

Mold temp is still too cold, even in the last pic you posted. You should be right on the verge of frosting and if your using LLA as Echo suggests I would say go all the way to frost. The frost will hold the LLA better. Pot temp is fine, up the mold temp and you will sharpen out those bands.

[copdills]

Looks great for the first time , the more you cast and learn the better they look, these look very shootable , GREAT JOB:drinks:

[geargnasher]

Mold temp is still too cold, even in the last pic you posted. You should be right on the verge of frosting and if your using LLA as Echo suggests I would say go all the way to frost. The frost will hold the LLA better. Pot temp is fine, up the mold temp and you will sharpen out those bands.

+1, speed up your casting pace until your boolits start to get a dull, grey surface to them instead of mirror-bright. You want razor-sharp edges to the driving bands and bases expecially, ensuring complete fillout will make consistently balanced boolits that shoot better. Base integrity is paramount to accuracy.

Be careful of overheating your pot, I'm afraid you're about to take the advice of others plus your first casting experiences and learn the wrong lesson from both. I realize you're casting in very cold conditions and that affects normal pot temperature, but you need to fully understand the difference between mould block temperature and the temperature of the alloy in the pot. Chemically, different alloys need to be maintained at different temperatures to function at optimum levels. This has NOTHING to do with boolit quality achieved with the correct mould block temperature. Mould temperature is where you control the quality of your boolits, cold mould = wrinkles, shiny, poorly filled out boolits, too hot = edged, porous, sandblasted-looking boolits, light "frost" = just right in my opinion. Some people can ride the ragged edge of too cool and get shiny, perfect boolits from wheel weight or similar material, but it's a narrow window to hit and maintain. A little frost never hurt anything and it is an excellent visual cue that you finally got your blocks heated up enough for good casting. Range scrap like what you're using likely contains some antimony and little tin, but the general rule is to keep the alloy at 100* or so above the point that it is fully molten, no more. The advise to "crank up the heat" will get you into trouble down the road if you cast with alloys containing tin which will "burn out" at pot temps over 750*. So what does this mean? Generally, cast with the coolest alloy temperature you can get away with, and keep the mould temp up by casting fast and staying in the "just barely frosted" temperature range that the boolits will show. Pure lead and lead/tin binaries won't frost, but it is a good guide to follow to determine mould temperature with antimonial alloys. A light frost, just above the mould temp where the shiny boolits start getting a dull appearance, will insure that your mould is at the right temp for good fillout. With what you're doing, a 700-725* alloy and a 400* mould should be about right, but you'll have to make three to four pours a minute to keep the mould that hot, perhaps faster as cold as the ambient temps were.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Sometimes pictures are worth ten thousand words, here's what I was getting at:

The boolits on the left were cast from a mould that had gotten too hot from casting too fast, note the major frosting and pitted, poorly filled-out edges. The boolits in the middle are just right. The boolits on the right are from a mould that was too cool, note the wrinkles, shine, and rounded base.

All of these were from the same batch, experimenting with a brand-new mould, the pot temp was 670-690* with 95-3-2 alloy throughout the session.

Gear

[Recluse]

Try shooting the .359" boolits before you size some. May just be perfect.

Agree as well. The Smith K-frames I have will handle all the way up to .360 with no problems and superb accuracy.

What mold is that you're using for the wadcutters? I like bevel base target boolits--may have to check that one out.

:coffee:

[runfiverun]

thats the lyman 358091 or 35891 depending on when it was made, the h&g 50 is similar to it.
or vice versa.
i have a 4 cav of it [and probably 2k boolits made up] but i have never shot it.
gears advice above is spot on, once you hit the mold temp zone you can turn down the pot temp, or slow down to a more relaxed pace.or use a hot plate to warm up the mold to a consistent temp.
hot mold cool alloy will produce the best quality everytime.
clueing in visually is the quickest way to make changes on the fly.

[David2011]

Jal,

Your pace may be a little slow if you have time to put the mold on top of the furnace. The easiest way to keep the mold hot is to refill it often. I usually go through 3.5 cycles in a minute; a refill about every 17-18 seconds. That will keep the mold at a good temperature. If it gets a little hot and starts frosting heavily, cool the mold on a damp towel. Just place the bottom of the mold in contact with the towel for 3-4 seconds while letting the boolits cool. Gear gives good advice. Watch for the bright shine to dull to a light frost. That's where your boolits are perfect. The chances of having wrinkle free, well filled out boolits is very good at that temp. You're definitely on track for great boolits.

David

[Walter Laich]

I love the fact that the rejects and mis-cast bullets never show up outside the shop--they all go back in the pot to make better bullets. No waste + no issues with getting rid of the poor ones.

walt

[RegCom7]

It looks like you're getting the hang of it Jal5. Do you have a lead thermometer? I consider a thermometer to be a necessary part of my equipment. Maybe you could try sizing some of the bullets to .358 and leaving the others at .359, and see which shoot more accurately. And I wouldn't worry about lead fumes: casting temps are way too low to cause any vaporization of the lead. I cast on my kitchen counter, right next to the bread and onions. I've had my blood tested a couple times, and I've never had elevated lead levels.

[wallenba]

Hello, jal5, I feel your pain, up here in MI, I cast with garage door all the way open..not much fun in winter! At this time of year, I have a self-timer..when I can't feel my toes, I quit! I see the temp. increase helped..you might try adding a little tin..I usually use 50-50 solder, this usually helps fill-out. Best of luck!

Fire up the pots fellas, a heat wave is coming, 39 degrees by Friday I hear!

[Moonie]

Supposed to be 60 here Saturday, just walked out to the man cave and back, dog wouldn't follow through the snow...

[geargnasher]

Speaking of size, I forgot to mention that the boolits on the right were .4545" and the ones on the left were .4532, the ones in the middle just under .454" with this run. Mould temp makes a big difference in final boolit size.

Gear

[troy_mclure]

i like to add a bit of tin too for better fill out. i still cant get shiny boolits too fill out right, so i just go frosty.

[Jal5]

Sometimes pictures are worth ten thousand words, here's what I was getting at:

The boolits on the left were cast from a mould that had gotten too hot from casting too fast, note the major frosting and pitted, poorly filled-out edges. The boolits in the middle are just right. The boolits on the right are from a mould that was too cool, note the wrinkles, shine, and rounded base.

All of these were from the same batch, experimenting with a brand-new mould, the pot temp was 670-690* with 95-3-2 alloy throughout the session.

Gear

Thanks gear for that explanation and picture really helped. I have a lot to learn!
The mould is Lyman 35891 SC. Should I try a little tin added for fill out?

I thought I was going at a pretty good speed the second batch. Filled mould, 6 count, cut the sprue by hand, dumped the boolit, then rested the mold on the pot edge while I filled it again. Not sure how many per minute doing it that way.

I don;t have a thermometer yet, that is the next purchase. My interest in venting the garage was equally for protection from lead fumes and to make sure no smells or smoke goes up to the family room above!

So to get the frosted look I need to keep up a fast pace and reduce some heat of the pot?

Thanks for all the help.
Joe

[geargnasher]

I'd say just keep up the pace as fast as you can, don't hurry to the point that you overlook safety by any means, but after you cut the sprue don't waste any time dumping the boolits, closing the mould and sprue plate, and refilling. Your only wait should be letting the sprue set. More about that: Opinions and techniques vary, but I personally like to cut the sprue while it's still soft enough to cut by hand, meaning no beating on the plate with a mallet, just push it open either with your mallet handle or with your gloved thumb. It isn't necessary to let the sprue harden until it's difficult to cut, just make sure it's set. If the sprue material breaks apart when you dump it off the plate it wasn't quite cured enough, wait another second or so next pour. Once the mould is hot and throwing good boolits, slow down slightly and see if you can find the pace that works best for you.

As far as pot temp goes, the reason for wanting as cool an alloy as possible is slowing the oxidation rate of the melt's surface so the tin, if any, in your alloy doesn't get depleted by oxidizing out. Tin tends to oxidize faster than the other alloys in the pot and will separate out by forming an oxide scum on the surface. Alloy temperature should be maintained at a point that is best for the alloy, and has little to do with boolit quality except keeping the alloy consistent through the lowest possible oxidation. Mould temperature is paramount for booit fillout and overall quality, and that's controlled with casting pace, not the dial on your pot.

Here are some general guidelines that work for me: With clip-on wheel weight alloy with 1.5% tin added, pot temp seems to work best between 625 and 700, most range scrap with some antimony and little tin might like closer to 750, pure lead usually casts best at 800+. Straight linotype needs only about 550* to pour well. But if you heat linotype to 800* it will form an oxide layer as fast as you can skim it, and soon the 4% tin content will be down to 1% or less with all the rest in your dross can.

Another tip, you might try casting with just one cavity until the boolits get good and frosty after a minute or so on on the towel, keep an eye on them as they cool while you continue casting, the "frost" effect doesn't happen immediately.

Hope this helps, you're certainly on the right track!

Gear

[Jal5]

Range report:

Finally was able to try out this new boolit today. Pretty neat to shoot my own homemade boolits too. Ran out of time and by then my fingers were frozen, so I didn't get to shoot the whole lot for load workup but over Titegroup they show some promise.

No leading, and very mild to shoot. Should be a fun boolit.
Thanks for all the help.
Joe

[*Paladin*]

Good thread. I just cast my first boolits tonight and they looked about like yours. Too wrinkled. It's also cold as a well-diggers *** in my garage so, tomorrow night I'll give it another whirl with the mold and lead at higher temps. I was casting w/ the lead at about 650*, but I didn't get good fill out and the bullets were pretty shiny and wrinkled. But it was FUN! I can't wait to try again tomorrow! Hopefully I'll have some good bullets by this next weekend and I'll load some up and go shooting!

[furbis]

great thread with tons of good info for us new casters, I am just getting started myself and will be making my first ingots out of ww this week I hope, then boolits soon after.

[Moonie]

Good thread. I just cast my first boolits tonight and they looked about like yours. Too wrinkled. It's also cold as a well-diggers *** in my garage so, tomorrow night I'll give it another whirl with the mold and lead at higher temps. I was casting w/ the lead at about 650*, but I didn't get good fill out and the bullets were pretty shiny and wrinkled. But it was FUN! I can't wait to try again tomorrow! Hopefully I'll have some good bullets by this next weekend and I'll load some up and go shooting!

It is more about mold temp, gotta get the temp of your mold up, 650 should be fine depending on alloy and mold. Some molds like hotter alloy (like my lee and HP molds). You are looking for around 400* mold temp. Your casting tempo will tell you what you need to know. Sprue should cool and harden within a 5-6 count, if more you need to cast slower or use a technique to cool the mold, some use a small fan others a damp sponge/cloth to cool the mold. If the sprue hardens faster speed up your casting and pour a larger sprue puddle.

Your mileage may varry, this works for me.

[*Paladin*]

Thanks Moonie! I just cast a bunch and once the mold was up to temp, I cranked out probably 30-some boolits in a row that are BEAUTIFUL! Slight frost to them and complete fill-out. I agree, mold temp did the trick. Unfortunately, it's still freezing in the garage so I called it quits for tonight. It's supposed to be warmer tomorrow, so I'll crank out a bunch tomorrow night! :cbpour:

[MtGun44]

About 3 gr TG should be real good. Quiet, soft shooting and accurate if the revolver
is. Nothing at all wrong with frosty boolits, either. Consider ordering some Bull Plate Lube
from the Bull Shop, link below to lube alignment balls and sprue plate.

Bill

[Moonie]

I like em frosty, but then the 45/45/10 tumble lube sticks to them better that way I hear.

[Jal5]

I ordered the Bullplate, hasn't arrived yet.

I tried my 3rd batch tonite with this mold, added some Tin to help fill out. Did 3 different groups of about 30 ea. - full max. temp in pot, 75%, and 50% of max.
I kept up a faster pouring pace for each group, so the only variable was the temp in the pot.

Each group was better fill out than my previous trial batches with sharp edges on the grooves and sharp bases. As I lowered the pot temp the color went from shiny bright to slightly frosty by the 3rd group. The only problem if it is one was that the boolits stuck slightly in this mold, (a SC mold) almost every time needing a small rap on the metal part of the mold handle to drop.

If the weather ever breaks here, I have a bunch of loads to test!

Joe