A dangerous practice

[Jim]

I've seen dozens of photos over the years of the results of stupid things other people have done. I did something incredibly stupid today and it almost cost me dearly.
I decided to document (http://fgsp.wordpress.com/2010/12/24/a-dangerous-practice/) it and post it. Hopefully, somebody will be impressed by my mistake and not make it.
I decided to make a blank with a .303 British case for my Taurus Judge. The mistake I made was not in trying this. It was in failing to use proper load work-up procedures. And what amazes me, after the fact, is that I've been handloading for thirty years and KNOW BETTER!
The revolver is not damaged and I am not injured. But it could have happened. And on Christmas Eve, at that.

[Circuit Rider]

Jim,Glad you're ok. I've been loading ten years and have been very fortunate because of some things I did without thinking them through. Most people wouldn't have said anything, I admire you for admitting a mistake. Merry Christmas to you and all the members at Cast Boolits. Circuit Rider

[AZ-Stew]

Jim,

I'm not coming down on you, but I have a VERY healthy respect for Bullseye. It's a very energetic powder and the heaviest loads I found for it on the Alliant web site use 7.0 grains. That's a plenty stout load and would surely supply the desired "bang" in a blank. But using three times that much as a starting load? :holysheep, man! What were you thinking?

I'm thankful neither you, the gun or anyone else was hurt. Thanks for Christmas miracles!

Be careful out there, folks!

Regards,

Stew

[Jim]

Well, Stew, that's why I posted this. I WASN'T thinking.

[firefly1957]

Glad you were not injured it looks like the case could not expand quick enough.

I used to load blanks with trap 100 in the 12 ga. they warn you with wads (.2"cardboard)CAN BE DANGEROUS TO 40 YARDS they are right I fired one and a wad hit and killed a sparrow at near 40 yds. I often wondered just how fast those wads left the muzzle the load did make a very loud boom and bright yellow flash.

[waksupi]

Step - away- from - the - egg- nog.......

[jcwit]

Thank God for no Injury & like you say on Christmas Eve yet.

Merry Christmas to everyone here at Cast Boolits.

[Jim]

I wish I had something to blame it on, Ric. I don't, except my own dumb @$$.

[Triggerhappy]

Very glad you weren't hurt. We all make mistakes and sometimes we're lucky to live past them. Darwinism in action at times.

Merry Christmas!

Brian

[uncle joe]

I believe what does not kill us makes us stronger, and in this case smarter. Someone above said they had a healthy respect for bullseye. My dad taught me to have the same healthy respect for bullseye, and any other powder that takes up less than half a case of room in a hand load. He had pencils with marks cut in them that he would drop in a loaded case to make sure he didn't have a double charge of BE. Most of those loads were less than 6 grains which would put a double charge at 12 grains which would most likely damage most guns in some way if not destroy it. 20 grains would be a BIG boom especially if there was something on top of it to cause some pressure building to happen. Your are a lucky (and now smarter) man.

[Tom-ADC]

Remember the Speer plastic bullets? Used a primer to propell the bullet? Well my brother had some and was disappointed at the performance of those so he filled the plastic case with Bullseye seated the plastic bullet and test fired one out of a S&W 60, shot it at a bedspread well that thing went all the way thru it and buried into the mattress. One shot and we gave up on that idea..

[HeavyMetal]

Everybody makes a mistake now and then.

The real trick is to not make the same mistake twice!

Experience, and passing it on, are the real teachers!

[1Shirt]

Jim, Merry Christmas, and sure am glad that you are not hurt. Am reminded of the old yankee sayin, "the only people who don't make mistakes are them what do nothin!" That said, the older I get, the more I know that it is all to easy to make a mistake by thinking that we have a boat load of experiance in the reloading game.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[Wayne Smith]

Bullseye, and anything faster than it, creates a bomb in large amounts. Twenty grains is a very large amount! Be thankful you didn't have more of an obstruction ahead of it.

[MtGun44]

I once saw a .44 Automag in an Anchorage gun shop "in for repairs". ALL of the
six bolt locking lugs (looks kinda like an AR15 bolt head) were GONE. Apparently the
owner had loaded up a full case of Bullseye instead of W296.

YIKES!

And other than needing a new bolt, the gun appeared to be OK.

Glad you are OK. That taught me to really respect Bullseye, which apparently has
quite a bit of nitroglycerine in it.

Amazing that it would rupture the case but not expand it to fit the chamber. Pressure
must have spiked really, really fast. Thanks for the reminder to be really careful with
reloading.

Bill

[EOD3]

Glad you still have all your pieces and parts Jim.

Once upon a time... We experimented with blast containment methods to thwart the bad-guys. We found that foam of various densities and viscosity were unexpectedly efficient in blast mitigation. Obviously, this is not the time or place for an extended discussion. To make a REALLY long story short, do not expect foam to react logically under extreme pressure.

Will a 45 Colt chamber in the Judge?

[MtGun44]

The Judge is sold as able to shoot .45 LC or .410 shotshells.

Bill

[Jim]

Me thinks I'll switch over to Hodgdon's Triple Seven. Flash, bang, smoke and MUCH lower pressure.

[casterofboolits]

Thank goodness you escaped unharmed. Truly a Christmas miracle.

I am not a fan of Bullseye. I ended up losing a nice S&W 38 Combat Masterpiece to a double charge. I didn't do it, but did a poor job of supervising the individual helping me reload. I switched to Unique for all my 38 loadings and used three pounds of BE mixed with fire place sparkles as fountans on the fourth. My friend ended up wearing out a kinetic bullet puller on about 700 rounds of 38's.

No more BE has entered my loading room in fourty years!

[44man]

Jim, glad you are OK but it does not look like you exceeded pressure limits of the gun, just brass expansion limits. Fire forming a .303 case to .410 dimensions sounds kind of tough! :Fire:
Since JWP and Whitworth never agree with me about meplat, boolit hardness needed for different velocities, etc, I have wanted to make foam boolits. You have given me an idea with earplugs. :mrgreen: Since the meplat is perfect, they should kill deer as good as hard cast for Whitworth. :drinks:
Someone suggested spit balls but the problem is what paper to use. Does toilet paper need to be used or will new work? How much spit must be squeezed out? If you drink Jack, is it different then scotch?
I thought about mercury boolits but a liquid nitrogen holster is too heavy. :coffee:
Anyway, take more care and Merry Christmas to all.

[Jim]

And Waksupi accused ME of too much egg nog![smilie=l:

[Echo]

Glads you are OK, Jim - and we all either learned something or reinforced what we already knew, unfortunately at your expense. You might need something I have - it's a headache band with a pad over my forehead to lessen the trauma when I slap myself there. Proper use allows sufficient time to hunt it up an don it prior to the slap action, and that time is very humiliating - "WHY did I do it THAT way?!"

[Jim]

Actually, the gravity of the potential occurred to me rather quickly. Like, in milliseconds? All I could do was stand there, looking at the case and thinking "That was too close."

[cajun shooter]

Jim, Real BP will give you better results as far as boom and the pressure is lower than triple 7. When we ran a police traning school we used full cases of Bullseye in 38 spl cases that worked very well. I would dip the case into a bowl of bullseye and push it through to fill it up. I then had a 41 mag case that I had used a small round file on to sharpen the mouth edge. I would use it to cut 41 cal plugs from styrofoam cups. These plugs were inserted into the case to hold the powder. We then used candle wax to seal the foam. I think in todays world as this was in the 80's maybe a light glue or hot glue gun would work better. These rounds gave a huge boom and muzzle blast. They were made because the blanks that the FBI had were not as loud as a cap gun and the head instructor asked if I could come up with a better round. They started using my blanks just as the K-9 division did for dog training. Just never use any blank without the proper eye and ear protection. Don't point the gun at some one that is close to you nor at the face area.

[leadman]

Glad you are good. That case looked fairly old also. Do you anneal any part of the case to help with the fireforming?
I have read articles on using the 303 case to make shot cartridges for a revolver so your thinlking there is probably correct.
Let us know if you do this successfully.

[Jim]

The original intent was not to fire form the case but to create a loud blank. The case ruptured because of the intense pressure.

[Markbo]

Everybody makes a mistake now and then.

The real trick is to not make the same mistake twice!

Experience, and passing it on, are the real teachers!

Right arm. Thanks for pass it on Jim. I can't speak for anyone but me but I appreciate stuff like that. Makes me think more when I am 'messing' with stuff!

[w30wcf]

The original intent was not to fire form the case but to create a loud blank. The case ruptured because of the intense pressure.

Jim,
Glad you didn't get hurt with the escaping gas. Unsupported brass will rupture / expand at very low pressure so the pressure was not high. 20 grs of Bullseye makes a nice loud blank in the 30-06. Primers are well rounded, not flat at all.

w30wcf

[Randy in Arizona]

I have used 15 grains of Bullseye behind a 500 grain cast boolit for subsonic loads in a Ruger #3. I figured the sooner the pressure curve was on the decline the lower the report.
I have also used the 303 case for shot loads in a 44 Magnum. Trimmed to a length just shorter than the cylinder and reduced the rim to fit the cylinder chambers. Worked great, more room for shot than the shorter normal case.

51

[EOD3]

Jim, glad you are OK but it does not look like you exceeded pressure limits of the gun, just brass expansion limits. Fire forming a .303 case to .410 dimensions sounds kind of tough! :Fire:
Since JWP and Whitworth never agree with me about meplat, boolit hardness needed for different velocities, etc, I have wanted to make foam boolits. You have given me an idea with earplugs. :mrgreen: Since the meplat is perfect, they should kill deer as good as hard cast for Whitworth. :drinks:
Someone suggested spit balls but the problem is what paper to use. Does toilet paper need to be used or will new work? How much spit must be squeezed out? If you drink Jack, is it different then scotch?
I thought about mercury boolits but a liquid nitrogen holster is too heavy. :coffee:
Anyway, take more care and Merry Christmas to all.

Why not get the best of both worlds... Foam concrete has most of the properties you're looking for. You'll probably have to pan-lube though. :bigsmyl2:

[Jim]

Me and my big Irish mouth.:groner:

[44man]

The original intent was not to fire form the case but to create a loud blank. The case ruptured because of the intense pressure.
I don't think so, I think it was more like throwing a round in a fire. The case ruptures and is more dangerous then the bullet. There is just no support to the brass.
Why not buy brass .410 cases from Ballistic Products? Or find another case that has no space between the brass and chamber. Maybe cut the neck from .303 brass and anneal them, then expand for a better fit. For a blank, you can soften almost the whole case.

[Jim]

Good idea. I'll try that.
Thanks!

[fishnbob]

Hey Jim, I appreciate the warning. I made the mistake of going straight to the maximum load shown in the Hodgon manual using H-380 in a Browning A-Bolt 22-250 last summer. I locked the bolt up using 41.0 grs of powder with a 55 gr. Hornady SP. I dusted myself off, went back to the suggested starting load and found the maximum for that rifle to be 39.0 grs. And I have been reloading for 46 years. I violated the 1st rule in reloading. Start at the minimum and increase gradually. I never had any trouble with any of my rifles shooting the maximum, so I fell into a rut of "shootin' the max". Another guys rifle woke me up.

BTW, How much snow you get Xmas Day and now Sunday as well?

[44man]

Hey Jim, I appreciate the warning. I made the mistake of going straight to the maximum load shown in the Hodgon manual using H-380 in a Browning A-Bolt 22-250 last summer. I locked the bolt up using 41.0 grs of powder with a 55 gr. Hornady SP. I dusted myself off, went back to the suggested starting load and found the maximum for that rifle to be 39.0 grs. And I have been reloading for 46 years. I violated the 1st rule in reloading. Start at the minimum and increase gradually. I never had any trouble with any of my rifles shooting the maximum, so I fell into a rut of "shootin' the max". Another guys rifle woke me up.

BTW, How much snow you get Xmas Day and now Sunday as well?
As true as snow is white! :bigsmyl2:
NEVER look for velocity first and that is a problem with a lot of revolver shooters when they buy a magnum too. I really hate to hear a guy ask "How fast." or a guy bragging about almost 1500 fps from a .44.
I refuse to take a chronograph when working loads. Only accurate loads are checked after the work is done.

[watkibe]

Bullseye seems to have the appeal of being economical to use, since the charges are so small. I double charged a 357 Mag case with Bullseye, and I had to send gun back to Ruger for a new cylinder. When I considered the $187 I paid Ruger, Bullseye didn't seem all that economical any longer.
No more Bullseye for me ! I now use Unique for all my non-magnum loadings, and the charge weights are such that a double charge is much easier to detect.

[gnoahhh]

My Darwinian mistake came when I was pulling bullets out of a full box of pre-war Rem-UMC .25/20 Single Shot cartridges, in the course of feeding an old R2 Lovell rifle. All of the bullets popped out ok except for one. When all methods failed, and the remainder was too small to get a grip on it with anything, I resorted to drilling it and applying a small easy-out. Yep, you guessed it. The drill bit went through the bullet and into the powder, setting it off. From heat, I imagine. BANG. Banana peeled the case, never did find the bullet. No blood, ringing in the ears though. For 30 years now the remains of that case has been sitting over my loading bench as a reminder to not be a *******!