A myth of tin separating lead.

[45-70 Chevroner]

This has been going on ever sence I started casting my own boolits well over 35 years ago. This is not to prove that I am wright and someone else is wrong. It's just a matter of getting it stright, ie educating ones self. Tin and lead will not and can not separate with the equipment that is avialable to the home caster, and before you get all up set please look up on google this process. Just type in "the process for separating tin from lead". Click on Continus Method of separating tin from lead. The artical is a real good read and the process is quite involved, which includes injecting oxygen and chlorine into the melt and having the melt at a very high degree, stiring the melt quite fast. The equipment that is used probably cost in the thousands of dollars. My guess would be that it is not profitable. Although almost all tin comes from foreign countrys and the price of tin "new supply" is running around $12.00 to $15 dollars a pound. Thats not too far off from the price of silver.
This should ease our minds of worrying about our expensive tin leaving the pot by evaporation or oxydation into drouse.
I certenly hope I have not stepped on anyones feet.

THE HEADING SHOULD HAVE READ:
A MYTH OF TIN SEPARATING FROM LEAD.

[Bass Ackward]

Well, if one does want to educate one's self, they can buy a batch of tin based Babbitt.

They can heat it and flux it and let it cool and then repeat this.

What will be found is that that Babbitt will be getting softer and softer and softer each time.

Now if you remelt this dross into a batch of pure lead, what you will find is that you can make something close to lino in hardness and that pure lead will be shinier than silver.

98% of dross is stuff other than lead. Only about 2% is dirt / contaminant.

I guess the separation is just plain ol FM cause Google can't be wrong.

[blaster]

Silver is not far off per ounce not per pound.

[Leadmelter]

Has anybody done a chemical analysis of dross? I am a little rusty on my chemistry but a simple analytical could be set up for contaminants.
There is an idea for someone for 2011 to make a simple kit.

Gerry

[45-70 Chevroner]

Your right blaster my mistake. A big one at that.

[felix]

Gerry, it would be mucho more fun to see what is in the boolit metal rather than in the crust.
Why? Because.......

Chevroner, now if we had lab grade stuff your statement(s) would be much more true. Things we use for boolits, like strange babbits, mixed or not mixed, in with other junk like WW, range lead, roofing lead, pipe lead plus welds, etc., don't follow text book rules. Bass Ackwards is entirely correct in what he is saying. Any kosher "factory" made babbit will provide instructions for melting and pouring and into what the apparatus is. Metals which are perfectly mated will only stay that way under very specific application approaches. One of the best examples without too much trouble would be to take any babbit well fluxed, for example, that has any amount of copper and pour it back and forth between a pair of pots. You will see a sheeting over the lead during the pouring. That is the frozen copper surrounded by whatever looks silvery, tin, lead, antimony, etc.

... felix

[HangFireW8]

Well, if one does want to educate one's self, they can buy a batch of tin based Babbitt

....

I guess the separation is just plain ol FM cause Google can't be wrong.

I'm not taking sides on this, but isn't Babbitt usually a bunch of stuff besides lead and tin, like copper, silver, etc.?

In other words, I'm not sure the experiment proposed matches the question asked.

-HF

[lwknight]

It don't matter if you have been casting for 100 years in a industrial foundry , you cannot change physics by your opinion.

Ever hear of depleted linotype? Ask an old printer about it.
When the dross ( not drouse ) contains a high tin content that only means that the alloy has a lower tin content. Riddle me how can it be that its impossible for tin to separate if that is the case. Or maybe we are actually doing some alchemy and creating tin out of nothing ?

BTW : Wright is a proper name and the synonym for " correct" is spelled " right " .

Chevroner , your assessment is not entirely without merit. It is difficult to refine lead and tin in commercial volumes but losing tin is cheap and easy.

I would be interested to see what geargnasher has to say as well. I've read his posts and he actually did controlled experiments that shoe the " can't separate tin theory " to be nothing but drivel.

[geargnasher]

Backyard chemistry, not controlled experiments, but conclusive none the less... The results of simple specific gravity determinations performed on lead/tin binary alloy oxides skimmed from an intentionally overheated pot showed upwards of 90% tin content by weight from an alloy containing less than 5% tin. I reduced the skimmed oxides back into elements before doing the SG tests.

Tin melts at much lower temps than does lead. Tin oxidation begins to accelerate at a much lower temperature than lead oxidation does, and even though the two have a strong bond in solution, the oxidation reaction will evidently pull elementary tin away from the lead because of a stronger electron bond. Tin is depleted from binary or ternary boolit alloys due to oxidation reactions and the fact that the oxide floats on the melt. Based upon SG and volume, the primary content of oxide from ternary alloy is still tin, followed by lead, and then trace antimony. Using hardness testing and specific gravity testing I estimated that the oxides skimmed from wheel weight metal with 1% tin added and running at 800 degrees was about 50/50 tin lead. Hardness tests on both lime-cooled and oil-quenched specimens of this same reduced oxide confirmed virtually no antimony was present in the samples I tested, as there was no significant difference in hardness even after aging. It's a fact, and though my tests were primitive, I felt that they were very conclusive. I also feel that my hydrocarbon reduction/oxidation experiments were very conclusive, too, because I can make shiny, pure metals again from a bunch of dull, grey, fluffy oxidized crud.

Something else I noticed, under certain conditions antimony can "oatmeal" on the melt, usually after most of the tin has been burned out and the melt cooled to near the melting point of lead. Antimony alloys with tin much more easily than lead, and the intermetallic bond of tin and antimony keeps the antimony in suspension until the tin is gone. Lead and antimony have an affinity for each other, but it is not as strong and the antimony can "freeze out" of the melt sometimes. Just try adding a cold Linotype ingot to a 700* pot of soft lead, see how much of a time you have getting the oatmeal to go back in. Add a hunk of silver solder and voila! smooth alloy again. Interesting stuff.
Gear

[Bass Ackward]

I'm not taking sides on this, but isn't Babbitt usually a bunch of stuff besides lead and tin, like copper, silver, etc.?

In other words, I'm not sure the experiment proposed matches the question asked.

-HF


OK, then do Linotype if that qualifies for you. It just takes longer and in the end, the part about putting the dross into pure lead WON'T show as dramatic results, but it will still show you. The higher the percentage of lead, the harder it is to make happen. SO if you are using a batch of 40-1, then you can get kinda tired before you produce it.

Newspaper companies used to have to throw in pills (tin and antimony) to refresh the lino once it got down far enough that they couldn't use it.

That's what makes this so strange is that after hundreds of years of real world history of it happening, that we still get people today that say it's impossible.

[runfiverun]

those pills were called foundry type.
it's job and only purpose was to replenish lino-type.[it's in my notes somewheres]
airc it was made up of like 12%-20%tin and 20% antimony.
anyways the paper guy would either sample the lino and send in a sample or guess at it himself and add the foundry type.
many posts on here regarding "is this zinc?" is the classic antimony grey bubbles.
at the foundrys that i have researched they inject zinc into the scrap lead stream to strip the tin from the alloy.
how they get the antimony out i don't recall. but the zinc may scavenge that out also.
something we are not set up to do at home for sure.
but we can surely deplete a pot of tin easy enough.

[2Tite]

Just a quick note for lwknight...........I think you meant to spell "show" in your post. A "shoe" is something that goes on your foot. People who live in glass houses.............

[watkibe]

Just a quick note for lwknight...........I think you meant to spell "show" in your post. A "shoe" is something that goes on your foot. People who live in glass houses.............


Thanks for saving me the time I would have spent writing exactly what you wrote!

Geargnasher - I detect a little bit of proffesional metallurgical background, or at least molten metals experience beyond hobby casting boolit at home, in your post. Thanks for your contribution to the thread.

[lwknight]

Just a quick note for lwknight...........I think you meant to spell "show" in your post. A "shoe" is something that goes on your foot. People who live in glass houses.............

The " W " key is right next to the " E " key.
A typo is a bit different that someone going against the grain with their lecture and not even bothering to use proper language. It sorta detracts from the credibility.

[dualsport]

Be nice fellas. We can debate without personal stuff. This is a hot topic because we covet our tin! I know I do anyway, bothers me to chuck that dross, what if it contains all the good stuff? And I like to cast hot and fast too, dangit. I guess there's no free lunch. I have, however, found a little trick that seems to help reduce dross, I put a empty can, like a dog food can or whatever fits good, upside down on top of my bottom pour Lee pot. Seems to hold heat better too.

[2Tite]

lwknight, Well then if you must.......proper language would be: It doesn't matter if you have been casting for 100 years........not "It don't matter". That's improper english. The point is that we all understood what he was writing. It did not need your attempt at correction. Especially when we consider that you made mistakes in your correction. Finger pointing at such small things isn't necessary. Just giving you a dose of your own medicine. It seems you don't like the taste of it. That will end it for me.........

[leftiye]

Tin oxide floats on any lead alloy. This (tin oxide) is a major part of dross. Flux(FLUX!!!) before you dross!

[prs]

Dang! If type-o's are illegal, I will be locked away for a long time! Even my grammer, poor ole gal that she is, would be in jeopardy.

I have often said, wasting tin is a SiN. Flux very thoroughly before removing "dross'. The "stuff" we want to keep should them "mostly" be retained. We are gonna lose some oxides of good as well as bad, but such is the fee to the troll.

prs

[John 242]

I've seen the questions asked before, but I might as well be the guy to ask anyway...
Can dross be returned back into the melt or is it simply waste?

If dross is a combination of lead oxide, tin oxide and other 'stuff', can anything useful be accomplished by saving the dross and then returning it to a melt latter?
I've got a coffee can that's about half full of dross. Is it worth mixing that dross into a pot of lead and fluxing the heck out of it, or is it a wast of time?

[Dannix]

Isn't the practical conclusion to just have a layer of sawdust on top of the melt (bottom pour)?

[geargnasher]

I've seen the questions asked before, but I might as well be the guy to ask anyway...
Can dross be returned back into the melt or is it simply waste? There's dross, and then there's dross. I don't know what you call it, but the oxide scum that appears after a pot of metal has been melted, stirred, fluxed, reduced, and cleaned should be reduced back in rather than skimmed because removing it changes the alloy composition. I get more consistent boolits from alloy that is constant in both temperature and composition.

If dross is a combination of lead oxide, tin oxide and other 'stuff', can anything useful be accomplished by saving the dross and then returning it to a melt latter?
I've got a coffee can that's about half full of dross. Is it worth mixing that dross into a pot of lead and fluxing the heck out of it, or is it a wast of time? It is always worth trying to save the metal oxides from "dross", and where possible do so before removing it from the pot that produced it. If you have a bunch saved, dump it all into your wheel-weight smelting setup if you have one (i.e. cast iron dutch oven and turkey fryer burner), pour a cup of diesel or charcoal ligher fluid over the dross, and light both the dross and the burner. Stir with a stick until pure metal starts to ooze out, separate that from the ash when the fuel burns off the dross, and you've probably reduced about as much as you can. The metal you reduced can be hardness tested and/or specific gravity tested to get a ballpark idea of it's content, but you can just toss it in with metal from your next casting session to sweeten the tin content a touch.


Isn't the practical conclusion to just have a layer of sawdust on top of the melt (bottom pour)? Works for me.

I don't have a technical backround in metallurgy, although sometimes I wish did. What I DO have is the ability to use resources (not necessarily the internet) to educate my self on any subject within the limits of my intelligence. I was homeschooled until the ninth grade by my parents (one has a master's in Special Ed and the other an MFA and MS in English, both career teachers), and the one thing I was taught to do best was how to teach myself, since no one really knows how I learn better than I do. It amazes me how little people know about things in the world around them because they never realized that it was within their own power to discover uncommon, higher, and specific knowledge about any subject if they would just put some effort into it. You don't have to have a lecturer to learn something. I was formally educated as an engineer and thus have a solid background in physics, mathematics, engineering, drafting, CAD, materials, and process, but that doesn't mean that's all I'll ever know about. I've also been formally educated in automotive service technology since I prefer that line of work. You'd be amazed how little I know about some common subjects, though. Can't know everything!

And for those of you on the spelling/grammar rant, there sure is a large and obvious difference between a request to stop being an apathetic slob with our language and a personal attack. The "glass house" comments always get my goat because those that make them usually function from a victim mentality and are unrealistically sensitive to what they perceive as someone being attacked. But that's just my perception. Wow, two sentences in one paragraph started with conjunctions, I must be really slipping!

Gear

[runfiverun]

carbon type flux and an oxygen free atmosphere.
mainly burning sawdust and some wax on fire is your best bet.
work it smash it stir it, don't try to do to much at one time.

sorry gear couldn't resist. :lol:

[rob45]

This has been going on ever sence I started casting my own boolits well over 35 years ago. This is not to prove that I am wright and someone else is wrong. It's just a matter of getting it stright, ie educating ones self. Tin and lead will not and can not separate with the equipment that is avialable to the home caster, and before you get all up set please look up on google this process. Just type in "the process for separating tin from lead". Click on Continus Method of separating tin from lead. The artical is a real good read and the process is quite involved, which includes injecting oxygen and chlorine into the melt and having the melt at a very high degree, stiring the melt quite fast. The equipment that is used probably cost in the thousands of dollars. My guess would be that it is not profitable. Although almost all tin comes from foreign countrys and the price of tin "new supply" is running around $12.00 to $15 dollars a pound. Thats not too far off from the price of silver.
This should ease our minds of worrying about our expensive tin leaving the pot by evaporation or oxydation into drouse.
I certenly hope I have not stepped on anyones feet.

THE HEADING SHOULD HAVE READ:
A MYTH OF TIN SEPARATING FROM LEAD.

Actually, the method to which you refer is a patented process of intentionally removing tin from lead.
For purposes to which this process applies, tin is considered a contaminant in the lead.
Ever wonder how foundries make "pure" lead? This process is but one of many methods used to get there.

We are not foundries attempting to remove the tin; we are bullet casters attempting to keep the tin in there. Since tin is our most expensive component, and our intent is to retain it, we naturally safeguard against the loss of it.

Rest assured, oxidation is real. It will happen anytime our molten alloys are exposed to air. The process can be either benefit or detriment, depending upon your intentions. For purposes of intentionally alloying tin with lead, oxidation is most certainly a detriment.

Once an oxide layer forms on the surface exposed to air, that layer helps to inhibit further oxidation. It doesn't totally prevent it; it slows the process down.
Here is an analogy to understand that statement:
If you take your new "in the raw" carbon steel barrel to your gunsmith, he will be happy to use a "controlled form of rusting" to slow down the tendency to further rust. In other words, he will blue it or rust-brown it.
His methods and equipment will be more costly than simply letting the steel oxidize (rust) naturally, but the results will be more predictable (and certainly quicker) than putting the barrel somewhere and "seeing what happens".


So here are two scenarios:

1. You are operating a foundry where you intend to remove tin from lead. You want to remove as much as possible, and you want the most effective means possible. You realize that tin will oxidize more readily than lead, but you need a quicker, more complete (thorough) process than natural oxidation. You need a process to augment oxidation.

2. You are a bullet caster who wants to alloy tin with lead. You have been constantly experimenting with different percentages of tin in an effort to create the "perfect boolit" for your application. You know that oxidation will occur any time your molten alloy is exposed to air. You also know that tin will oxidize more readily than lead due to the relatively low casting temperature you're using.
You want to combat that oxidation, because not only is your tin expensive, but you have already made a batch of 30:1 alloy, and now you are wanting to test some loads made with 25:1 alloy.
You start thinking to yourself: "I know that gray scum layer on top is helping to prevent further oxidation, but I added exactly eight ounces of pure tin to twelve and a half pounds of pure lead."
"Aw, man! That gray scum might be more tin than lead! How much tin is no longer alloyed with the lead? I'll bet I don't have a true 25:1 alloy any more! I already have a batch of 30:1 alloy; I hope I'm making it closer to 25:1 than 30:1 alloy. Sounds like I better reduce that oxidized tin back into the melt, just to be sure. And once I put the tin back in, I probably need to keep it in there, too.


Conclusion: Simply because a specific process has been developed to augment oxidation does not mean that oxidation ceases to occur when said process is not utilized.

[45-70 Chevroner]

It looks like I'm going to have to eat crow. It apears that the general consensus is that I am wrong. I do think that after adding tin ( I actually use very little) to the melt and fluxing and for the time it takes to cast up a batch of boolits, say 20# I can't see any difference in my boolits from beginning to end. Maybe that doesn't mean my tin has not depleated or oxidized or migrated to the surface. I will probably continue to cast the same way I have been doing it for seems like eons. As for grammer and spelling, I"m a pretty big guy and I have big shoulders so I can take a lot of criticism. I know for sure that I make a lot mistakes as to both grammer and spelling. Like one gentleman (geargnasher)said in his post (be carefull of the glass house effect). I have personally corrected people on this site, but I certinly had no intention of trying to embarrass someone. As for spelling the dictionary is my best friend. I use it quite often and obviously not often enough. Truthfully CROW does not taste very good.

[felix]

Consistent boolits are easier to make when PID controllers are used to keep the lead at a constant temp. The best setup would be to include a seperate PID for a hot plate which would warm the mold to a set point before using. The boolits will be consistent if the lead is at a consistent temp from start to finish, and sprues are NOT put back into the pot throughout the session. Eliminate all boolits that vary in weight according to mold cavity. The variance should be zero per cavity for at least 80 percent of the boolits. If not, change the lead composition or wait for another day to cast. Humidity and pressure does make a difference that can be measured via boolit consistency. The whole idea is to keep the lead as a saturated alloy with ALL constituents, and allowing the excess to migrate to the top before serious casting. Very hard to do when copper is intentionally desired within the mix because copper just won't stick within the lead solution using home equipment. Copper inclusion requires constant stirring, it appears. ... felix

[runfiverun]

felix i think tin helps keep copper in solution too.
airc between what i tried and leftiye tried we come up with 10% tin to 3% copper in an alloy.
try keeping that all fluxed in and protected.
i used a barrier of marvelux and high casting temps.
i din't really come up with a good use for the alloy though,except to try some higher velocities in the rifles.

[44man]

I ladle cast so I do not want a bunch of crud on top. I flux often and get very little dross in my can. I can cast for a week and will have very little in the can.
I have dumped it back in the pot to flux again and still come up with the same amount in the can.
The only lead I don't worry about flux with is pure and I still do not get that much in the can, maybe a little more then from my alloys because I run pure hotter.
I do believe tin can be lost but I have never been able to recover any usable metal from dross.
Someday I will measure the weight but I don't expect much change.

[geargnasher]

44Man, you only remove the oxides with the dross if you haven't reduced them back in before skimming the true "dross" or non-metal trash from the melt. What you're calling "fluxing" is probably more of a reduction process which yields only ash and mineral impurities, and that is what ends up in your dross can. My dross can if full of brownish-grey ash with occasional specks of metal oxide and charred sawdust bits, no clumps of metal oxides in the dross.

Gear

[felix]

5R5, you are correct. Tin and copper do have some affinity for each other, and others like arsenic besides tin prolly do too. Yes, copper is for toughening up an alloy and seems to make boolits hold the faster twists mo'betta' without distortion. However, accuracy does suffer when the copper is not applied consistently, no matter when the boolits weigh exactly the same. Might have something to do with the pot's spout not being consistent before a drop. I typically drop some alloy before applying the mold to the spout, especially when copper is involved. That seems to help some in the accuracy department. ... felix

[Rocky Raab]

Consensus doesn't make reality, chevroner. Not for a flat earth, not for man-caused climate change and not necessarily for bullet casting.


(If words and typos don't matter, just write to tell your mother you are interested in incest - when you meant insects.)

[nanuk]

so can felix make me a PID controller? or does someone make them for sale?

cause I have little experience in that area, and if I tell my wife that I'm going into the other room to play with my PID.... Well, I just won't go there.

[45-70 Chevroner]

Rocky Raab: I'm not realy sure what conclusion has been arrived at here but it sure seems that there are some diverse opinions about the subject.

felix: I'm not making fun of you but what is, are, PID controlers. I realy hate some of these abbreviations because I'm not in the know or maybe I just don't get it.

[sundog]

Felix, over the last few days I have been casting with a 1# bar of our #5 alloy (made with your copper babbit) per roughly 5#s of WW and 5# of range scrap. Did a batch of NOE 225-60-RN (the new mould just delivered - nice boolits btw) and SAECO #301 for 2 days in a row, a couple hours at a time. I just wasn't getting enough oxidation on the top of the melt to worry about loosing anything. I drop sprues back in as I go so it stays mixed. Got some really nice boolits! The melt stayed together quite nicely and poured very well at about 700dF. I'm willing to bet that a high dollar assay won't find find much of a difference between first and last boolit per potful. My experience is that the rifle can't tell the difference and that's where it really counts. Anyway, unless you are competing for a world record or dollars, it makes no difference.

[HangFireW8]

The best setup would be to include a seperate PID for a hot plate which would warm the mold to a set point before using.

I have to chuckle... I built a half-wave rectifier so I could run my 1000W mold warmer hot plate at 500W continuous instead of 1000W cycling, and caught hell for it on this forum because it was deemed unnecessary by someone here....

-HF

[dualsport]

I don't have a technical backround in metallurgy, although sometimes I wish did. What I DO have is the ability to use resources (not necessarily the internet) to educate my self on any subject within the limits of my intelligence. I was homeschooled until the ninth grade by my parents (one has a master's in Special Ed and the other an MFA and MS in English, both career teachers), and the one thing I was taught to do best was how to teach myself, since no one really knows how I learn better than I do. It amazes me how little people know about things in the world around them because they never realized that it was within their own power to discover uncommon, higher, and specific knowledge about any subject if they would just put some effort into it. You don't have to have a lecturer to learn something. I was formally educated as an engineer and thus have a solid background in physics, mathematics, engineering, drafting, CAD, materials, and process, but that doesn't mean that's all I'll ever know about. I've also been formally educated in automotive service technology since I prefer that line of work. You'd be amazed how little I know about some common subjects, though. Can't know everything!

And for those of you on the spelling/grammar rant, there sure is a large and obvious difference between a request to stop being an apathetic slob with our language and a personal attack. The "glass house" comments always get my goat because those that make them usually function from a victim mentality and are unrealistically sensitive to what they perceive as someone being attacked. But that's just my perception. Wow, two sentences in one paragraph started with conjunctions, I must be really slipping!

Gear

I tried, I just couldn't resist. What is the large and obvious difference between calling someone an 'apathetic slob' and a personal attack? Sounds kinda cranky to me. Just for the record, all you grammatically challenged members out there go ahead and peck away, I don't care what your grade was in English class. If you can get close I won't check your spelling.:popcorn:

[felix]

Yeah, Corky, 1 pound of that brick that you used should be about perfect for that 20 pound pot full of obvious mixture. Should that brick make the total mix have about 1/2 percent of copper? That amount of copper should find something to hold onto before rising out of the mix with constant mixing. Like you say, looking at the top of the melt is sufficient for a determination anyhow. ... felix

[acemedic13]

The " W " key is right next to the " E " key.
A typo is a bit different that someone going against the grain with their lecture and not even bothering to use proper language. It sorta detracts from the credibility.

I think you meant "Than" instead of "That" in this post. I know what you meant, but I thought I would point it out....JK man..... You're definataely entitled to your opinion. You go bro!

[felix]

HangFire, most of us do not use copper (intentionally) in a mix. Small impurity amounts can be ignored. Larger amounts require special attention to the mix at all times which includes all ambients surrounding the entire setup. ... felix

[felix]

Medic, you are definitely defiant if you do not understand the difference. ... felix

[sundog]

With copper (and tin), when you get it right, they make 'clinky' boolits when air cooled. That #5 alloy that Felix and I made several years ago will NOT pour a boolit by it self - it sheets and makes voids, it does not fill out well. When stretched with additional lead, it does very well. Just gotta get close. You know when fill out is working well.

Thanks for the lesson Felix years ago. It took well.

[leftiye]

Not that I'm a saint by any stretch, but study the posters on this thread - you'll see who's got a bug up their a$$, and who's interested in a little learning.

[theperfessor]

Did somebody mention a dual PID controller for hotplate and lead pot control? Here's mine:

Dual PID Controller
http://www.lasc.us/DualPIDTempControl.htm

[acemedic13]

Medic, you are definitely defiant if you do not understand the difference. ... felix

I was just chipping at the stone felix......No harm intended.....

I am glad this post went up. I have learned a lot about fluxing, metalurgy, and the english language. AND I AM SERIOUS on all accounts. Sometimes even in the bad, there is a lot of good.

[45-70 Chevroner]

theperfessor: Thank you for posting the info on the PID unit. I was starting to get a little mad because no one would tell me what it was or is. After reading the artical from the web site you posted I could tell that I must have one. I can tell from the information provided that I have been casting boolits wrong all along and the only way to correct the problem is to get a PID unit "at all cost". I will be placing an order today. In the mean time I am going out in my reloading room turn all the lights off and sulk because of all the time I've wasted by not having one.

[geargnasher]

Chevroner, a PID temp controller is not essential to cast good boolits, although it helps. In the meantime, you can judge mould temp by the degree of "frosting" on the boolits, and pot temp with a $15 casting thermometer from one of the supply houses discussed in the casting equipment forum. If you get an extra casting thermometer or a replacement propane grill thermometer and and a steel electrical work box, you can make a mould oven on top of your hot plate and use the hot plate's thermostat and the grill thermometer to get your mould up to the temp you want it and keep it there during breaks, and keeping an eye on the pot temp thermometer will help you make thermostat adjustments to the pot control. Speeding or slowing casting pace will raise or lower mould temp, and observation of boolit "frost" after they have cooled for a minute or so will keep you in the ballpark there. Once you find the "happy spot" for your mould and alloy combination, take notes and try to maintaing that particular rhythm.

Gear

[ghh3rd]

What bothers me the most about losing tin while casting is losing consistency from boolit to boolit. I usually cast on the hot side, and feel that I have to flux often to keep my tin well distributed in the melt.

[rob45]

theperfessor: Thank you for posting the info on the PID unit. I was starting to get a little mad because no one would tell me what it was or is. After reading the artical from the web site you posted I could tell that I must have one. I can tell from the information provided that I have been casting boolits wrong all along and the only way to correct the problem is to get a PID unit "at all cost". I will be placing an order today. In the mean time I am going out in my reloading room turn all the lights off and sulk because of all the time I've wasted by not having one.

Chevroner,

As the saying goes, "In order to get somewhere, you have to know where you're going."
One may also infer that to mean, "Determine the result you want, then find your best available means of achieving that result."

This thread has taken many avenues, yet it is very informative in that it illustrates the fact that we all have differing objectives.

Do you need a PID unit? Only you can determine that.
I know a little about PID units, as I have some on my heat-treating ovens. But simply because I am familiar with their use does not mean that I possess sufficient electronics knowledge to build them or even accurately explain their operation.
In addition, theperfessor beat me to it before I got back online to catch up on this thread.

"Know where you're going."

As an example, theperfessor has been experimenting with his own line of molds for some time now. Anytime one embarks on such an endeavor, a primary goal is eliminating variables in order to reach accurate conclusions. He must determine which mold material, and the temperature of that material, functions best with a particular alloy at various temperatures. After that, he gets to do it all over again when the size of the mold cavity is changed. Then again when the alloy is changed.
The more tightly-controlled the parameters, the more accurate his determinations.

As another example, Felix mentions the use of a PID unit for his application. Please note that his application involves experimenting with the best method of intentionally including excess copper into his alloy.
The overwhelming majority of boolit casters live by the cardinal rule: "Excess copper is a sin." So why in the world would Felix be "going against the grain"? I'm not sure, but I suspect he is attempting to obtain optimum accuracy driving an itty-bitty cast bullet through a fast-twist barrel, and needs a "tougher-than-normal" cast bullet.
Going a different direction than others, Felix is at the disadvantage of learning from his own mistakes rather than the mistakes of others. This is always a difficult road, yet it is exactly how we obtain knowledge in the first place. Either we learn from our individual experiences, or we learn from those who already have the experience.
Were I in a similar situation, rest assured that I would be very methodical during the entire process, and a PID unit would be deemed prudent simply to better control the temperature variables. Just one of many actions taken to "shorten the learning curve".
However, I am not in a similar situation, and therefore do not currently need a PID unit.
So, do you need a PID unit simply because others do? Maybe, maybe not. Are you "going the same place" they're going?


Your thread initiated with an illustration of tin separation from lead being a myth rather than fact. On a forum such as this, that is naturally a hot topic.
But one must always keep in mind the differing objectives.
Here are some examples of differing objectives (names inserted merely for purposes of illustration):

A. Johnson Metals receives a huge shipment of scrap lead. Out of this shipment, they need to reclaim pure lead.

B. Charles shoots BPCR. He has been using 30:1 alloy, but notices that other people shooting his same cartridge are getting better results with 20:1 alloy.

C. Fred is having problems with his mold filling out when he casts his bullets. His shooting buddy told him that a small amount of tin would help him cast better bullets.

D. Jason is wanting to prove that a cast bullet can be made which will perform well in an application which others state is impossible. He enjoys the challenge, and has a naturally inquisitive nature. He knows he can somehow make it work.

E. Jerry shoots jacketed bullets. He does not cast, but his deceased uncle left him a thousand pounds of lead and associated alloys, plus a lifetime's worth of equipment.
Jerry attempts to sell the material; no bites. Then a prospective buyer comes along and says, "I know very little about making different alloys with what you have. I shoot a lot, and Dad used to cast bullets out of Lyman No.2 for me. Can you use what you have to make me 500# of Lyman No.2 instead?"

F. Bob is a hunter who is looking for a tougher cast bullet. He gets great expansion, but has also noticed a lot of bloodshot meat due to fragmenting. He heard somewhere experimenting with various amounts of tin may help him out.


Breaking the objectives down further:
A. Johnson Metals will use a method to thoroughly separate the tin from the lead.
B. Charles will create his own 20:1 alloy. He will do everything in his power to ensure it is "20:1", rather than closer to 25:1. Due to the nature of his hobby, Charles shoots a lot of big, heavy bullets. Tin is his most expensive component, and now he's frustrated that he may need to use more of it. So he needs to be sure he is not "wasting" it.
C. Fred does not care how much tin is truly in the alloy. He simply wants to produce better bullets as quickly as possible and get back to the range. He adds a little bit of tin, and it works great for him.
D. Jason is most definitely concerned with making his alloys as exact as possible. He will control every aspect of the casting process to the best of his ability.
E. Jerry has everything needed to make the No.2 alloy. Now he needs to ensure that his prospective buyer is actually going to be receiving Lyman No.2, rather than some mixed-up scrap that is simply called such.
F. Bob finally found an alloy that works for his favorite hunting rig. The problem he now faces is accurately duplicating the same alloy for next years hunt.

Please take note of point C. Fred is probably not concerned with an exact amount of tin in the alloy. His only concern is the production of "better" bullets. His method of "knowing how much tin is in there" is finding out when the bullets "don't come out looking as good".
Does this mean that Fred's methods are "wrong"? For his application, NO. Fred is accomplishing his objective with minimum "fuss".


In conclusion, always know firsthand what it is you wish to achieve, then find your best method of achieving it. In retrospect, realize that others may wish to achieve different objectives, and will probably have differing methods of accomplishing them.
Such conditions make it very difficult to state outright that anyone is "wrong".

Good Luck,
Rob

[geargnasher]

Good illustrations, Rob.

Gear

[lwknight]

Ye see, all it takes is a little cabin fever and a redneck like me to light the fire and we all learn something.

[45-70 Chevroner]

I think that I have learned several very important lessons from this Thread and the posts there in.
1. keep my mouth shut about tin and lead separating or not separating.
2. Pay more attention to heat control.
3. I probably don't need a PID controller.
4. And lastly don't trust Google as it will get you in trouble.
All kidding aside, This is a great forum. I have learned a lot on it. This is truly the "go to" site for BOOLIT casting and there are a great bunch of guys here, yes even you lwknight. Old habbits are hard to break but I am trying.