45/70 do's and don't's

[Fixxah]

When do you use a fiber/other wad under the boolit? Is it more to do with position of powder or burn rate?

New to loading this round and want to start off on the right foot.

If it has been covered, my apologies in advance. Blackberries kind of hoover.

Merry Christmas!

[adrians]

good ? i need that advice too.

[Catshooter]

Fixxah,

From all I see here and in my personal experience, you use a filler in a 45-70, or not, based mostly on personal opinion. Some seem to like it, some don't.

I've never seen a Blackberries hoover. And I grew up in blackberry country. Can you explain?


Cat

[btroj]

Many use a wad under the bullet when using black powder.

A wad is vert different from a filler. A wad must be up against the base of the bullet. A filler, like Dacron, can be down on the powder some.

I only use smokeless in my 45-70 and I never use a filler or wad. No need. Some will use a filler for small charges of fast burning powders. A wad is more specialized in application.

Don't over think things. Read up in your loading manuals then go test. And test. And test. This is the best way to learn what works for you and your gun.

Brad

[Fixxah]

Sorry Cat, was referring to my phone. Sucking.

[montana_charlie]

When do you use a fiber/other wad under the boolit?
When you want to protect the bullet base from impaction from the powder...in loads using black powder.
CM

[MtGun44]

A great load for moderate .45-70 is about 12-15 gr Unique, no filler needed. My most accurate
hunting load is 57 gr W748 under either a 405 Rem JSP or 405 RCBS cast GC. Either one
shoots into about 1.5-2" at 100 yds from the bench with my Marlin SS Guide Gun. Runs 1750
and Pearce reports that it meets trapdoor pressure specs - I would guess due to the slow powder.

Bill

[oldracer]

I started shooting a black powder 45-70 a few months ago as it seemed a very interesting way to shoot and here is what I found out (or not?):

- The note about testing, testing and MORE testing is very correct as it seems each rifle shoots differently.
- I tried 70, 68, 66, 64 and 62gr loads of FFG and all were compacted to the same depth so the bullet and wads are just touching the compacted powder. I have settled on 68 gr for pretty accurate loads at 100yds but at 200 I am just starting to look.
- Do not compress the powder with the bullet as it will cause swelling of the ogive area of the bullet.
- I tried full length sizing and flare, partial sizing and flare and no sizing using fire formed cases so the bullet would slide in with finger pressure and the last seems to work the best in my rolling block.
- I was told by one shooter, who had a wall covered with plaques and medals that a "milk carton" wad on top of the powder to compress it and then a newspaper wad on top so the heavier wad would separate as the bullet left the barrel was what he used and I have copied that.
- I bought all the back issues of Black Powder Magazine as they have a wealth of info and found one article that noted that using wads and NOT using wads on top of the black powder gave little difference in accuracy!
- I read another article that showed that the wad did make a difference and there were several wads tested to show variance!
- I was told to start with the bullet set about 0.001 to 0.003 inches off the lands or where the bullet contacts the rifling and then read an article that said they should touch, even with some force required to seat the case! I am currently using 0.002 inches and if needed will try other dimensions!
- Finally about bullet lube, there seems to be home made formulas that work and commercial formulas that work and I bought 2# from Doug Knoell and use pan lubing as it seems like a really good way to lube the bullets and leaves nearly no fowling in the barrel.

So far I have found that there is probably 60 to 70% science behind most of the things and loadings I have tried and the rest is "black magic" or "voodoo" and is what everybody tries when someone wins at matches SO the best thing I have found to do is test, test and more tests to see what your gun likes!

[btroj]

So sad that black magic and voodoo are the answers! But sadly, it seems true sometimes. There are just some rifle/bullet combinations that need quirky things to make them get along. I try my best to avoid them.
Get a bullet that fits, use a good lube, and go shoot. They the simple stuff first. It usually works. Leave wads and fillers ( and black) for later once you have the basics down.
45-60 is soooooooo easy to load for. My Marlin is not real picky, it seems to shoot 4 in groups at 100 with almost anything. It is getting smaller than that where the work comes in. On the other hand, most of my hunting is at far shorter distances so why should I care?

[XWrench3]

i do not use fillers or wads in anything. i have not found a need for it yet. everytime i pull the trigger, they always light off without a hitch. even using WAY reuduced loads. the only time i have ever had a problem was using pistol primers in very light loads of rifle powder with corn meal on top, which probably mixed in with the powder some in a bottle neck case (first attempt at fireforming a case). that caused hangfires. i really don't know if filler would have helped that or not. supposedly, when using small loads in large cases, it will give more consistant ignition, which equates to better accuracy. i suppose one day, when i am pretty happy with a drasticly reduced load, i should try a filler to see what happens. maybe i am really missing out on something.

[Jim]

It's my experience that the .45-70 is a user friendly cartridge. I've found successful loads for everything from .460 round balls all the way up to 500 grain boolits. It seems the cartridge will cooperate with a wide choice of powders, also.
To answer the question, as most have said, the cartridge can be loaded without wads or fillers in most situations. The one thing I would add, however, is that you be careful testing reduced loads of rifle powders. I ruined a Sharps repro rifle years ago doing that. If you decide to reduce a rifle powder load below suggested levels, put a filler of some description over the powder to keep it against the flash hole.
There's lots of help here on that procedure. Don't hesitate to ask. You'll get lots of answers.

[geargnasher]

With Dacron filler and smokeless powder, your chamber pressures will be considerably and predictably higher, which is a great way to get good ignition with slower powders that don't fill the case. A tuft of Dacron fluffed in the case to take up the air space between the boolit base and smokeless powder column will, in effect, reduce the case capacity almost in the same way a compacting filler will, but without the side effects. There is a lot more going on than just keeping the powder located against the primer.

Fillers are tools, and their use depends on needs. If you are trying to do something specific Dacron can be an aid or a must, cereal and shotshell fillers can help certain situations, and wads work with BP stuff. Some people will say that if you need a filler you aren't doing it right, but I've found that sometimes what works best is less than a casefull of powder.

Gear

[Crash_Corrigan]

I shoot a 50-90 Sharps Winchester Model 1885 BPCR and I always use a veggie wad over the powder.

I started out with a 695 Creedmoor boolit over 102 gr of Swiss 1 1/2 BP and the recoil was out of a horror movie. I had to go out and get a recoil pad for my shoulder as 20 shots left me a bruised mass of meat on the shoulder area.

Then I got smarter and loaded down to 90 grains of BP and I have found happiness. Now I may even make up a few 85 grainers to just see how low I can go and still get acceptable accuracy.

I have encountered a learning curve to reloading these monster boolits. So far I have butchered about 35 cases @ 1.79 apiece and I am still learning about them.

I learned that a Lyman Universal Decapping Die is not long enuf for this case. Ya need to use the full length resizing die to decap these babies unless you like playing around with needle nosed pliers and trying to nudge these cases back to factory specs.

I learned to move slowly and carefully when loading these as speed is not your friend when messing with blackpowder and massive boolits.

I learned that no matter how careful you are you will still need to run your completed rounds thru a sizer die to iron out all the wrinkles as this firearm does not have any camming action at all to chamber a round.

i learned that this is a wonderful rifle to shoot and will bring a smile to your face when you hear the CLANG of a round impacting your ram at 500 yds.

[rpatt1]

I like to use a piece of Dacron pushed down firmly on top of 10-12 grains of unique under cast bullets in 45/70.

This seems to give more shot to shot consistency than without it. I have used it under cast bullets from 300 to 405 grains in weight.

I cut the Dacron in approx 1/2 inch squares from a supply I got from the local fabric store. I use a regular old pencil to "tamp " the Dacron down on top of the powder.

Be careful with these types of loads - it is VERY easy to double load the powder. I adjust my process on these loads - and after i put powder in the case - complete the load process on that one before I put powder in another case. I always 'invert' the cases before i drop in the powder too - can't be too safe.

Cheers,
Rusty

[Tazman1602]

Hey Fixxah,

I'm relatively new to shooting 45-70 and cast and so far have not needed any fillers at all. I'm getting great results but then again, I have have not made the jump to black powder with this cartridge even though I have a dedicated bolt 45-70 I bought last year to try it in.

My learning curve after 25 years of casting had gone flatline.......right up until I found this forum a little over a year back..........then it went straight up for a year and is finally, on a FEW cartridges, starting to come a *little* away from vertical.

Try one of the 4198's or even RE7 on your 45-70 and make sure you fit the bullet to the barrel (slug the barrel) and you'll do OK. NO reason to try to be a "speed demon" at first although some of us just can't help but try to break our shoulders at times. You'll even get the best accuracy if you back it down a bit.

Let us know your results and which 45-70 rifle are you shooting?

Art

[1Shirt]

Been shooting 45-70's for a number of years and like some of the others have said, with every thing from round ball (yes with multi ball loads as well), t0 550 gr. Have a fondness for 2400, with the exception of the roundball loads and collar button loads, when I use unique. Have found that 2400 with someplace between 20 and 26 grains under most any blt wt. will do just about anything I want from paper to pigs. I have always used a dacron fill since I ran accross dacron a number of years back. I have never had a problem with fillers, but as others have said, loose fillers, not a wad. Before Dacron Poly, I used a number of fillers (toilet paper, dryer lint, COW, etc). Am now playing with Trail Boss for plinking loads as well w/o filler, and 14 gr. of TB under the 340 Lee PB is a fun and accurate load for 25-50 yd plinking, and recoil is neglidgable. Lots of words of wisdom here, and am always amazed at what I can learn via Castboolits. By the by, Lyman used to list and recommend fillers for smokeless loads in 45-70, but noticed that that is no longer the case. If you get into black powder with it, suggest you post a thread requesting case cleaning proceedures for black powder. It will probably save you a lot of time, and probably loss of cases as well.
Good Luck!
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[45r]

I've used dacron tufts with 4759 in 45-70 to shoot very good groups but now use 5744 and get very good groups without dacron,doesn't burn as clean but lots easier to make.Makes good practice loads and good for hunting.You can make some loads that will kick the sn*t out of you but ain't needed except for long shots.

[mpmarty]

25gr of 2400 is a nice useful load and I never use dacron fillers although I did buy a huge pillowcase size bag of the stuff years ago. it still sits under my bench. I heard horror stories of getting rings in the chamber from fillers etc. and decided it wasn't worth the worry. I also use between 14 and 16 grains of Unique under 350 gr boolits for plinking fun.

[Fixxah]

I set up my LnL today and loaded some 403g Remington JSP bullets that I found. They are Moly coated much to my dismay.

Used IMR 3031 at 46g and COAL of 2.550". They are for my Contender with a Bullberry bbl.

This combo is pretty basic but at least I got my feet wet.

Didn't realize how thin the brass was until I crushed a few cases. To be expected with stick powder I suppose.

Not in a race and loaded one at a time. Having tried this bullet with heavier charge it does a number on big pumpkins.

No desire to go the BP route.

I should have been more specific.

[onondaga]

Hi, I frequently use fillers. not that I really like them either. Large capacity, straight walled cases can have ignition problems with a variety of powders when powder takes up less that 80% case volume minus bullet seating depth of your bullet. The ignition problem, if it is a problem varies from misfire to hang fire to squib and detonations. Squib is when the primer fires and does not light the charge but pushes the bullet some distance down the barrel. A subsequent shot with that stuff in the barrel can be fatal. So, listen to your rifle when firing reduced loads and note the recoil. Detonation is when the primer lights only a small portion of your charge and the bullet may move some distance or even clear the muzzle but a delay in powder ignition causes the remainder of not yet ignited powder to detonate or explode instead of burning like a propellant. The degree of detonation varies but it can cause catastrophic damage to steel and flesh in addition to the very large blinding flash that might get you restricted from the range by your club safety officer who knows exactly what happened when he sees that kind of flash... My .458 belched a 20 foot fireball with a detonation shock wave the first day I tried reduced loads without filler and I got a serious talking to by the safety officer at my club.

If you notice the ignition problems with a new load, stop shooting. Disassemble the rest of the batch or discard them. A filler will likely resolve the ignition problem, Dacron fiber fill fluff is the lightest of common fillers and least likely to cause pressure increase that would be dangerous with light loads. I use a granulated ballistic filler but it has significant weight compared to dacron and I must add the weight of my filler to the weight of my bullet for a total projectile weight when calculating load pressure safety. That is not a game. Total projectile weight must be calculated precisely to evaluate the chance of over pressure even with reduced loads.

Most of my shooting is with .458 Win Mag that has more volume than a 45/70. Every .458 load I have tried with 100% capacity loads requires a recoil vest to sit and shoot 50 rounds. I shoot reduced loads with fillers and still have more than adequate power for deer and bear hunting with the .458. My favorite load for it is a 340 grain LFN at 1610 to 1700 fps and there is not a powder that will do that cleanly in a .458 Win Mag and fill the case more than 80% so I use a filler.

The problem will be less severe with the 45/70 and 5744 powder works great in that caliber. Rel #7 is a little cleaner and 4895 usually leaves the biggest trail of unburned powder. A calculated reduced load with Rel #7 and ballistic filler will ignite well and leave your bore clean. Approach the use of fillers with caution and study up on it first for safety. PM me if you have specific questions. I'd be happy to help with safety.

Gary

[1Shirt]

Well Onondaga, have never heard of anyone hunting deer with a 458, but to each his own, and IF I had one would probably try it as well cuz other than the fact that the rifle is probably heavy as he-double-ll, just figure it is an over grown 45-70 with a belt. You must be deer hunting in the Adarondics, or out of state, unless they changed the laws since I left home (Livingston Co.) 50 years ago when it was all shotgun w/slugs. Did hear that they now allow ML's in New York as well.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[mpmarty]

The beauty of the 45/70 is the ability to digest reduced loads of smokeless without getting fussy.

[onondaga]

Yes, even the Southern Tier of Western New York allows rifle now for the past several years. I like heavy rifles for all of my shooting. My .458 is a scoped Colt Sauer Grand African and weighs 10 pounda even. I do notice the extra magazines in my pocket when hunting. They are extraordinarily noticeable in the pocket. Actually the hunting loads I shoot are light for even a 45/70 with a 340 grain bullet at 1610 fps.. It is a fine shooter and will group less than an inch at 50 yards for myself or my grandson. Actually it kicks less than a 30-30 lever rifle with the load I use. And It is prettier.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c338/rhymeswithwhat/coltsauer.jpg

Yes, muzzle-loading has been here for a while too. Currently there is pressure to open hunting in NY with the use of Atlatl and darts. I am competitive in that ancient art, make my own gear and flint knapp my own dart points. I'd love to hunt with that and can group about 10 inches at 20 yards with Atlatl and darts.

Gary

[geargnasher]

I like to use a piece of Dacron pushed down firmly on top of 10-12 grains of unique under cast bullets in 45/70.

This seems to give more shot to shot consistency than without it. I have used it under cast bullets from 300 to 405 grains in weight.

I cut the Dacron in approx 1/2 inch squares from a supply I got from the local fabric store. I use a regular old pencil to "tamp " the Dacron down on top of the powder.

Be careful with these types of loads - it is VERY easy to double load the powder. I adjust my process on these loads - and after i put powder in the case - complete the load process on that one before I put powder in another case. I always 'invert' the cases before i drop in the powder too - can't be too safe.

Cheers,
Rusty

Rusty, be advised that many people report gun damage from doing just what you're doing, TAMPING the Dacron down over the powder. This is supposed to create a massive spike in chamber pressure with powders like Unique because the filler is acting like an overpowder wad and and the airspace between the wad and boolit base makes the boolit act as a bore restriction. The powder gets a good light and starts a burning pressure wave against the wad, then rapidly accelerates the flame front pressure wave forward and is almost up to full steam when it slams into the boolit base. The resulting outward pressure spike is blamed for ringing chambers.

I use a lot of Dacron, but the important thing is to "fluff" the Dacron to fill the space between the boolit base and powder, it doesn't have to be compacted to keep the powder situated. Even fine grain powders like 748 don't migrate much at all through a light fluff of Dacron, and the fluff reduces case capacity effect slightly while not providing a dam for the flame front to build against. As an experiment, cut a window in the side of an old cartrige case and tape a piece of clear plastic cut from a package over the hole. Fill 1/3 with whatever powder, however much of a fluffy Dacron tuft will minimally fill the void to the boolit base, and seat a boolit in it. Carry it in your pocket for a week, observe powder migration. Then you'll know how much is really needed.

Gear

[Fixxah]

There you go making all kinds of sense again.:kidding: