PDA

View Full Version : What Went Wrong??



inthebeech
12-19-2010, 05:56 PM
I am certainly responsible for my own actions but after following the advice on this forum, and dropping more than the price of the gun itself on tooling and supplies related to casting boolits, I still have leading in the forcing cone and about a quarter inch beyond, of my new Flattop Blackhawk 44 Special. In a much shortened version, here's what happened and where I am;

1. Bought a 44 Special Blackhawk and signed on to this forum, committed to shooting cast boolits and finding a lead-free target load.
2. Slugged the bore (measures .4294- and yes I am sure - twenty years a mechanical engineer and tool maker). Similarly pin-gauged the throats at .433.
3. Experimented with cast bullets of a variety of hardnesses (and weights), from commercial casters who were able to provide diameters up to and including .432, all with a standardized "time proven" medium load of 7 gr Unique. Everything leaded after ten rounds.
4. Decided to take the plunge into casting based on much advice. Bought a bottom pour pot, bought a custom mold to cast larger diameter (to match the throats), and cast up my first batch out of a medium hard 10:1 alloy.
6. Loaded a culled out sampling of .433-.434 diameter, tumble lubed (Lee Alox which for many is an excellent lube) bullets (The design is a wadcutter specifically designed with tumble lube grooves). Because the diameter is larger than the throats, I had to seat the wadcutters just off the transition so that the rounds would chamber - light roll crimp. No case sizing was necessary since at this diameter there was enough neck tension to seat accurately for the crimp.
7. Just got back from the range and what did I find after the typical ten rounds?
You guessed it.

So now I realize that everything up to this point that was done, followed as precisely as possible the advice found on this site, but I honestly have no clue where to go from here so once again I am asking for input on what I might still be doing wrong.

Ed

KCSO
12-19-2010, 06:05 PM
Rugers sometimes have very rough forcing cones. If yours has annular rings like a cut off tree you may need to ream and polish the forcing cone.

wonderwolf
12-19-2010, 06:05 PM
I would try a smaller bullet from there just to see if it gets better or worse. Are you water quenching bullets? did you use the 7gr load with your lot of bullets? how much bearing surface is there? Try some unlubed bullets and see if that makes things worse (prolly will) you may need to go with a better lube? I like the tumble lubes for small 38's that for whatever reason don't size well in my sizer luber.

462
12-19-2010, 06:17 PM
Inthebeech,
Hmmm...almost an indentical story to my introduction to casting.

Long story short: Switch to a starting load of 2400 (Lyman's manual).

Edit to add: Pull a seated boolit and measure it be sure it's not getting swaged down.

stubert
12-19-2010, 06:30 PM
Softer boolits, better lube, mabey go to a gas check mold.

Tazman1602
12-19-2010, 06:42 PM
throats = .433
Barrel = .4294

Get a sizing die of .431, go ahead and use your LLA lube, and what 462 said -- starting load of 2400 powder worked up from there and I'll be the issue goes away.

Throats bigger than barrel OK -- throats smaller than barrel NO ok as bullets will get swaged down before they get to the forcing cone.

methinks your bullets are a bit big mon'..............................let us know and don't get disgusted though. Chore boy bronze pads will rip the lead out by the roots in about three passes and you can go right on shooting.

Art

fredj338
12-19-2010, 07:04 PM
I keep hearing all kinds of issues w/ TL style bullets & leading. Not a glutton for punishment, I haven't tried them myself, I stick w/ conventionl 1 or 2 groove designs & wax based lubes. Leading w/ proper fitting bullet is minimal using Unique or 2400 in several caliber rev. You will need a bullet that matches throat size, but it could be an issue w/ the throats being too large. I have seen & heard of this in S&W M25 in 45colt having extra large throats & leading. At this point, try varying your alloy hardness, go 50/50 lead/ww & try the same water dropped, then try ww alloy. All sized to the same dia & tumble lubed if you have to. THen, you could just have a rough forcing cone or the dreaded Ruger bbl pinch that seems to occur where the bbl screws into the frame.

243winxb
12-19-2010, 07:15 PM
There is no accuracy with real leading. How were your groups? Size to the standard of .430" in a Lyman 450 lube sizer. 50/50 bees wax/alox Lube. BHN 15 alloy, air cooled. Size your brass and expand with a .428" button. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/th_Alloy_20090610_1.jpg (http://s338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/?action=view&current=Alloy_20090610_1.jpg)

Blammer
12-19-2010, 07:27 PM
take 2 of your loaded rounds, pull the boolits and measure them.

243winxb
12-19-2010, 07:33 PM
If your using this bullet TL430-240-SWC , 7gr of Unique in 44 special is a fairly warm load. BHN 15 alloy should work best, sized correctly. From Lee's FAQ list
Liquid Alox application

Best results in applying liquid alox are when the alox is heated before applying, or thinned with paint thinner. This makes it flow more easily, and results in a more even coat. One technique is to boil water and pour it into a coffee mug, and then drop the bottle of liquid alox into the mug for about five minutes.

Place your freshly cast bullets into something about the size of a Cool Whip bowl and drop a few drops of liquid Alox on the bullets. Mix the bullets around until they are all coated. Lay the freshly coated bullets on some wax paper to dry. Liquid alox will usually dry enough overnight to reload the next day, depending upon the humidity. Tacky bullets can be dusted with powdered graphite.

If you subscribe to the "more is better" line of thought, your coated bullets may never dry. Don't go for a "golden" color but rather just a light varnish. If you discover that your bullets are sticky the next day, you can get by with using a little less the next time. Keep reducing until the "stickiness" is gone by the next day.

If you are sizing your cast bullets, it is necessary to lube them first. Because the sizer will remove some of the surface of a larger diameter bullet, you may need to re-lubricate the bullets after they have been sized.

Many of our bullets are of the "TL" or Tumble Lube design. These bullets have many shallow grooves that are perfect for allowing Liquid Alox to adhere to a great amount of surface. It has been reported that the accuracy of these bullets is high.

snuffy
12-19-2010, 07:33 PM
Decided to take the plunge into casting based on much advice. Bought a bottom pour pot, bought a custom mold to cast larger diameter (to match the throats), and cast up my first batch out of a medium hard 10:1 alloy.

10-1 what? 10 parts pure lead to 1 part tin? That's not very hard, and water dropping won't harden it. I doubt you're over 10 BHN. If that's the case, you need a much harder alloy. Add 5% antimony to your present alloy, you'll be up around 15 for BHN.

lwknight
12-19-2010, 08:16 PM
I have a feeling that the forcing cone may be a little rough and also the boolits are a little too big. I think that the leading band of the boolit mat be smearing in the forcing cone , then spreading on doen the bore. Also the cone could actually be wiping the lube off the leading band.

Bass Ackward
12-19-2010, 08:19 PM
1. Your bullets too soft.
2. For a diameter that is too big.
3. The lube is too poor in that small quantity to compensate.
4. Making the powder charge WAY TOO high.
5. For a gun that's not broken in.


From that you aught to be able to plan a course of action to use that wise investment that you made.

Have you ever heard of a brush? Just like brushing after every meal, you need to brush after every cylinder full until you or the gun figure it out.

noylj
12-19-2010, 08:34 PM
Leading at the forcing cone and the start of the barrel means that the forcing cone is rough or there is a tight section where the barrel enters the frame or the bullet is too hard (or the charge is too light for the bullet hardness) or the bullet is too small.
Sorry, those are the rules of the game that I have found. Too many people think that only hard bullets will work.
It would be nice if the barrel was .429 and the throats were .431, but your dimensions say that you should be able to get lead bullets to work quite well. Of course, there are always those guns that are just temperamental and need just the right load to work well.
Your bullets are just fine as far as size.
The things to find out are:
1) how did the commercial bullets work? Did they lead?
2) pull a couple of loaded rounds and determine what the bullet diameter is. Seating dies are not made to swage bullets, so if the bullet is getting swaged down, it is doing so unevenly and accuracy will be poor.
3) Inspect your forcing cone

NSP64
12-19-2010, 08:41 PM
Iinthebeech, dont feel bad I wrestled with my SBH all summer before I got it to stop leading. If you haven't yet, go to Wheelguns, Pistols and Handcannons subsection and at the top of the page is a sticky"a beginner's guide to revolver accuracy" read this.
You need to slug the barrel, then drive a slug into the crown and pull it back out. This will tell you if there is a constricture at the barrel/frame juncture. Mine had it. Use pure lead to slug. I lubed some pure lead with a fine grinding compound and fired them over 3gr of unique to polish this "tightness" out. I also had to enlarge my cylinder throats ( all tight and different sizes)

Charlie Two Tracks
12-19-2010, 08:49 PM
There is quite a bit of stuff that can go wrong. I had terrible leading with my SP-101 on cast boolits. Ended up that the timing was off and the BC gap was from ten thousandths to eleven thousandths. I sent it back to Ruger and they replaced the barrel, crane and cylinder. (that didn't leave a whole lot). I get it back and it still leads. I ream the forcing cone.... still leads. My cast .358 TL WC boolits were not filling out correctly. The middle was narrow. I get that fixed and leading was less but still there. Ends up I needed to use an M die instead of my Lee die. As a matter of fact, the seating and crimping die were sizing down my boolit to a dimension that was too small and would lead. These guys helped me through this mess and all is well for the time being. As others have said, pull a boolit and see if it is getting sized down. You'll get it. Sometimes, it just takes time.

NSP64
12-19-2010, 08:55 PM
inthebeech stated he wasn't sizing the cases as the fat boolits had some tension on them without sizing the cases.

shotman
12-19-2010, 08:57 PM
all replies could be right BUT the gun is your problem RUGER for most part is trash try the bore lap compound or get a good gun I have given up on ruger they are putting out trash now. had 2 454s and that was last for me both went back 2 times and got a good gun

JIMinPHX
12-19-2010, 09:41 PM
My first recommendation would be to clean the gun as best you can with your normal cleaning routine, then scrub the daylights out of the barrel, forcing cone & throats with lead-away cloth until you see a bright & shiny finish. Then apply some Kroil to the bore & chambers & let it soak in. Then put some plain old oil on a patch & run it through the bore & chambers. Then dry patch everything. Then try shooting it again.

If that doesn't work, then please answer these questions:

Where did you get your alloy from?

Are the boolits soft enough to dent them with your thumbnail?

Where in the barrel did you find the leading? The whole barrel? In front of the forcing cone? Near the muzzle?

How much lube did you use?

How thick/thin was the lube when you applied it?

How long did you let it dry?

How hard was the lube when you loaded the boolits?

Did you flair the case necks before seating the boolits?

Did you use gas checks?

Were you able to recover any boolits that you fired? If so, did they show signs of gas blow by?

As many others have said, Ruger sometimes leaves a poor finish on the throats of those guns. Since you are a long time tool maker, I'll assume that you would have recognized something like that & told us about it if that issue was present.

btroj
12-19-2010, 09:54 PM
This is the tie to experiment. That is how most of the people here learned. You revolver will let you know what it does, or doesn't, like. My SRH leaded like a madman til I got a mould that cast big enough to size to .432. No more leading.
Don't give up trying different things. But keep it to one variable at a time. Test hardness or lube or size but not all at once. You WILL find something that works. That is where the satisfaction comes in.
To look at variable look at what Jim said. That is a good starting point. But short of giving one of us the revolver it is something you will ultimately have to discover on your own. But like I said, this is where the real satisfaction comes from.

runfiverun
12-20-2010, 02:30 AM
your cramming a large boolit into a smaller throat.
i would try either a different lube like 45/45/10 or another coat of the alox. [quickest. easiest try first]
i'd try a different alloy second.
even 15-1 or 20-1, and lastly an antimonial [higher bhn] alloy.
i'm not a fan of the t/l designs either, they can be problematic.

Bret4207
12-20-2010, 08:02 AM
In general terms leading is caused either by gas cutting/erosion (a fit issue), poor lube or mechanical issues resulting from rough surfaces. You've gotten a lot of opinion on what it could be. Were it me I'd get the gun as clean as possible, inspect the forcing cone and barrel for restrictions or rough surfaces, make sure my seating dies weren't swaging my boolit down and back off my load for a start. If this is a PB design finding a balance between the alloys strength, boolit fit and powder charge pressure are key. Good lube is also important and while many people have good luck with LLA, some don't.

What do you think the problem is?

x101airborne
12-20-2010, 11:36 AM
Dont throw a rock at me, but did you clean all the copper out of the throat? I have never seen a weapon that did not get at least one jacketed round through it. My sw 66-6 leaded for half the barrel length. it was the copper stripping the lead from the boolit. Cleaned it out, viola!

runfiverun
12-20-2010, 01:27 PM
i once seen someone recommend running a couple of hundred full power jaxketed rounds through a revolver before even doing an evaluation on accuracy or trying cast loads.
i have done this on a couple of new revolvers, just to take the rough edges off.

44man
12-20-2010, 02:17 PM
1. Your bullets too soft.
2. For a diameter that is too big.
3. The lube is too poor in that small quantity to compensate.
4. Making the powder charge WAY TOO high.
5. For a gun that's not broken in.


From that you aught to be able to plan a course of action to use that wise investment that you made.

Have you ever heard of a brush? Just like brushing after every meal, you need to brush after every cylinder full until you or the gun figure it out.
Listen to Bass and also look up all of my posts.
I never seen a rough forcing cone bad enough to cause a problem. Some Ruger's had a tight spot at the threads but Ruger puts out great guns and they have only gotten better.
Dump the Alox right quick.
Use slower powder.

inthebeech
12-20-2010, 09:26 PM
I can add the following answers to some of your questions;

Unfortunately I neglected to mention that some of the money that I've already dropped went into getting the forcinfg cone cut to 11 degrees and polished. Believe me, spoiling your diagnosis hurts me more than it does you but this is a fairly smooth forcing cone.

Alloy is unknown - a combination of many different industrial soources of lead.

Leading is on FC and another quarter inch down past that. No more.

Moderat amount of TL. It never dries completely so I can't be more accurate than this. 90% of the bullet was tucked safely in the case anyway. Remember that bullets were about .0005-.001 larger than throats so I had to seat them off of the transition.

Cases were flaired and then a mild crimp since case neck tension was very light. Remember I did not size the cases down. So the full .434 inch was swaged in the throats and then again down to the groove diameter (most common recommendation from this site).

I guess I should lighten the load some to see what happens as well as load another bunch with a known alloy that is considerably harder. In addition I was admittedly shooting as-cast so the diameters did vary a bit. I am going to make a push through die set to get uniform size and start at a diameter that just allows me to push the loaded round in to the throat with finger pressure. I will have to size the case now since there will be insufficient neck tension but since now I can seat out further, there will be a significant amount of the bullet left out of the case now to remain at the full diameter after sizing. With uniformity of bullet diameter I will try the "light load" as well as the "harder alloy" ideas I guess. For now I'd like to keep as many other variables constant as possible so will hold off changing powders.

So where's the cheapest deals on jacketed bullets? Not knocking the hobby but frankly I'd rather be shooting. At this point I'd pay someone if shipping handguns wasn't so prohibitive, to develop a clean load for me.

Thanks everyone for your input.

noylj
12-21-2010, 05:16 AM
If your bullets are over throat diameter, then they are being swaged down in size in an uncontrolled manner. Size bullets so they are a tight slip fit in the throats. Fitting the cylinder throats and have a groove diameter in the barrel less than the diameters of the throats are the keys to revolver accuracy with lead bullets.
I have a Colt Bisley from 1908. The barrel is 0.311 and the throats are 0.308. It does not shoot lead bullets well at all.

Bass Ackward
12-21-2010, 07:59 AM
1. I guess I should lighten the load some to see what happens as well as load another bunch with a known alloy that is considerably harder. In addition I was admittedly shooting as-cast so the diameters did vary a bit. I am going to make a push through die set to get uniform size and start at a diameter that just allows me to push the loaded round in to the throat with finger pressure. I will have to size the case now since there will be insufficient neck tension but since now I can seat out further, there will be a significant amount of the bullet left out of the case now to remain at the full diameter after sizing. With uniformity of bullet diameter I will try the "light load" as well as the "harder alloy" ideas I guess. For now I'd like to keep as many other variables constant as possible so will hold off changing powders.

2. At this point I'd pay someone if shipping handguns wasn't so prohibitive, to develop a clean load for me.



Reading 1, your lucks about to change. Well .... change enough that you'll cut down on leading. You might still want #2. But asking for that is like asking someone to break in a new girl friend for you.

Let's revisit:

1. Your bullets too soft. There is nothing wrong with soft lead, just you have to know how to use it and determine it's limits. Soft lead tasks lube more.

2. For a diameter that is too big. I size all over the place, but you have to understand that when you size big that you task your lead / lube combo more. (and the gun)

3. The lube is too poor in that small quantity to compensate. The more you task a bullet the better and more lube you need. That's why some guys scramble for the "magic" lube so that they have the widest window to operate in.

4. Making the powder charge WAY TOO high. This is the single fastest adjustment you can make. It ain't the powders fault, it's your ability to create an environment your slug can live with. But just because you find that point, doesn't mean accuracy is going to be there when you do. See #1, #3 above.

5. For a gun that's not broken in. I don't even begin serious load development anymore for the first 2000 rounds. Doesn't mean every guns needs it, or that yours is one that does, Just doesn't make since doing all that work until the gun stabilizes mechanically and dimensionally.

Now you know every, single, thing there is .... about shooting lead. That is everything but the age old Reloader's Creed. START LOW AND COME UP!!!

Lead catches two types of people. The short cutters and the lazy. You can be the most ignorant SOB on the planet, but if you start low enough, and come up in small increments, you can make ANYTHING work.

You didn't do that. Get'er done.

Bret4207
12-21-2010, 08:18 AM
Pretty much agree with Bass. Were I you I'd locate some known decent alloy. You don't actually need "harder" alloy, you need a more or less identified alloy that is tough enough for the job. Plain old wheel weights are sort of standard.

I'd back off the charge and start low and slow till you get the hang of things. On;y change one item at a time, WRITE IT DOWN, and observe your results.

You sound like you have the basics in your head. It's just a matter of learning to recognize the issues and dealing with them that's next.

Crash_Corrigan
12-21-2010, 09:04 AM
I bought a CA Bulldog in .44 Special. I found a load in a manuel that called for a charge of 6.5 gr of Unique under a 250 gr LSWC boolit.

It about to tore my hand offa my arm. Much too hot for this pistol. I pulled those babies and went down to 4.3 gr of Unique with a 236 gr LHPSWC mold by Mihec and this was the ticket.

Good lube in the grooves, right charge of powder and alloy of plain ww's that were water quenched.

I just bought a Ruger Bisley .44 Special with the 5.5" bbl and I will be working on a load for that pretty soon.

I agree with what Bret4207 sez in spades. Lower your charge down to 4.5 or 5 gr of Unique and see if that helps you out. Make sure that your boolits are not being sized down during the reloading process by pulling a few boolts from completed rounds and measuring them. Try using plain vanilla ww's for an alloy.

Again try only one thing at a time and write down what you did before you go out and shoot off that round. I am much too old and have suffered too much dain bramage to rely on my memory for anything other than where I live and my dogs name.

If you find the right combination let me know so I will not have to go through your trials with my new Ruger.