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View Full Version : PSALM 19:11 (for you JMB fans)



shootingbuff
12-19-2010, 10:05 AM
PSALM 19:11
1. In the beginning was the 1911, and the 1911 was THE pistol, and it was good. And behold the Lord said, “Thou shalt
not muck with my disciple John's design for it is good and it worketh. For John made the 1911, and lo all of his weapons,
from the designs which I, the Lord, gave him upon the mountain.”
2. “And shouldst thou muck with it, and hang all manner of foul implements upon it, and profane its internal parts, thou
shalt surely have malfunctions, and in the midst of battle thou shalt surely come to harm.”
3. And as the ages passed, men in their ignorance and arrogance didst forget the word of the Lord and began to profane
the 1911. The tribe of the gamesman did place recoil spring guides and extended slide releases upon the 1911 and their
metal smiths didst tighten the tolerances and alter parts to their liking, their clearness of mind being clouded by lust.
4. Their artisans did hang all manner of foul implements upon the 1911 and did so alter it that it became impractical to
purchase. For lo, the artisans didst charge a great tax upon the purchasers of the 1911 so that the lowly field worker
could not afford one. And the profaning of the internal parts didst render it unworkable when the dust of the land fell upon
it.
5. And lo, they didst install adjustable sights, which are an abomination unto the Lord. For they doth break and lose their
zero when thou dost need true aim. And those who have done so will be slain in great numbers by their enemies in the
great battle.
6. And it came to pass that the Lord didst see the abomination wrought by man and didst cause, as he had warned,
fearful malfunctions to come upon the abominations and upon the artisans who thought they could do no wrong.
7. Seeing the malfunctions and the confusion of men the lord of the underworld did see an opportunity to further ensnare
man and didst bring forth pistols made of plastic, whose form was such that they looked and felt like a brick, yet the eyes
of man being clouded, they were consumed by the plastic pistol and did buy vast quantities of them.
8. And being a deceitful spirit, the lord of the underworld did make these plastic pistols unamenable to the artisans of
earth and they were unable to muck much with the design, and lo these pistols did appear to function.
9. And the evil one also brought forth pistols in which the trigger didst both cock and fire them and which require a
"dingus" to make them appear safe.
10. But man being stupid did not understand these new pistols and didst proceed to shoot themselves with the plastic
pistol and with the trigger cocking pistols for lo their manual of arms required great intelligence which man had long since
forsaken. Yet man continue to gloat over these new pistols blaming evil forces for the negligent discharges which they
themselves had committed.
11. And when man had been totally ensnared with the plastic pistol, the lord of the underworld didst cause a plague of
the terrible Ka-Boom to descend upon man and the plastic pistols delivered their retribution upon men. And there was
a great wailing and gnashing of teeth in the land.
12. Then seeing that the eyes of man were slowly being opened and that man was truly sorrowful for his sinful misdeeds,
the Lord did send his messengers in the form of artisans who did hear and obey the teachings of the prophet and who
didst restore the profaned 1911s to their proper configuration, and lo, to the amazement of men, they didst begin to work
as the prophet had intended.
13. And the men of the land didst drive out the charlatans and profaners from the land, and there was joy and peace
in the land, except for the evil sprits which tried occasionally to prey on the men and women of the land and who were
sent to the place of eternal ****ation by the followers of John.

waksupi
12-19-2010, 01:58 PM
Hallelujah, and AMEN!

P.K.
12-19-2010, 02:15 PM
Hallelujah, and AMEN!

Yes Sir! Can I get another!

SciFiJim
12-19-2010, 06:00 PM
Wow, that is a keeper. Saint John Moses Browning, Blessings be Upon Him, would be proud.

35remington
12-19-2010, 06:25 PM
Part of the proper "following of St. John" would be to use the magazines the 1911 was originally designed to run with for best reliability as designed by John Browning. These feed smoother and and with less angularity in feeding.

That ain't most of the designs out there now. Many of these were designed to feed rounds that the 1911 wasn't designed to feed..... and will feed those nonstandard rounds most of the time. The design compromises adopted reduced the pistol's reliability with the proper rounds.

Which is going backwards.

To the rest of the post, I also add an "Amen."

PatMarlin
12-19-2010, 06:33 PM
What brands would JMB approve of?

.357
12-19-2010, 07:32 PM
Amen!

35remington
12-19-2010, 07:50 PM
A tapered lip magazine that was supplied with his original pistol for US Army acceptance. I'm sure he wouldn't think much of our modern substitutes.

Anything else does not feed the gun like it was meant to be fed. In "improving" things we often make the gun do something it was not designed to do. Unreliability results.

Much has been made lately of the 1911's feed characteristics. The round was NOT designed to go straight into the chamber; glancing off the frame ramp is essential to its operation. With a tapered lip magazine, after the essential frame glance occurs the round is fed in better alignment with the chamber than many modern types that are hawked in the Gunzines.

Shouldn't be surprising. JMB designed it that way. Yet we ignore magazine design when JMB was designing the original specs for the gun. Make no mistake; JMB not only designed the gun, but how the magazine was intended to work as well.

Yet somehow we think we know more than the original designer in how the gun was meant to be fed! That is definitely a losing proposition, yet we manage to ignore his magazine design all the time. To our detriment.

JIMinPHX
12-19-2010, 09:13 PM
There was a reason why John Browning's middle name was Moses.

He showed the people the way.

derek45
12-19-2010, 09:36 PM
I suspect JMB is mighty proud of the great success of the beloved 1911 and what we are doing with it today.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/derek45/1911/IMGP4264.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/derek45/1911/IMGP4267.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/derek45/1911/1911SpringfieldArmoryIPSC.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/derek45/1911/1911pistols017.jpg

PatMarlin
12-19-2010, 09:53 PM
Beauty's.

I want to go in and hug my 1895 now... :mrgreen:

KYCaster
12-19-2010, 10:36 PM
The first to muck with the original design was the U.S. Army. They made him put that gawd-awful grip safety on an otherwise fantastic gun.

Kind of frustrating when you have to alter your hand position just to get the gun to fire. [smilie=b:

Jerry

35remington
12-19-2010, 10:57 PM
"I suspect JMB is mighty proud of the great success of the beloved 1911 and what we are doing with it today."

Some of it would horrify him. Specifically:

Eight shots in flush flt magazines. If he felt he could have gotten an eighth shot in a flush fit without compromising something, he would have. Eight shots in flush fit is a minus feature for dependability on the second to last shot or last shot.

Three to 3.5 inch variants. As to reliability, these are an extreme joke. Latitude for proper functioning is down to zero.

Swartz safeties on the Kimber. Their rendition of "drop safety" is a reliability downside that some have trouble with. I don't think he would have considered the Series 80 modifications to the Colt as needed, either, but at least it's not what the Kimber has.

Short target wadcutters. He'd say, "You're trying to get the pistol to run 100 percent with that stubby round and you're doing WHAT to the magazines to make them feed? It's a fighting pistol, not a paper punch. What's worse, you're using the same crappy magazines that feed stubby target wadcutters and then promoting them as actually superior to my original design when using ammo closer to its design spec in feeding?!!!?"

"What are you guys smoking, anyway?"

Shok Buff? The gun was designed to be struck in the frame by the slide in that area. Another area for malfunctions.

Why did you ditch the small radius firing pin stop? (Army did that, so blame them).

Front cocking serrations? Gimme a break. If you can't cock them as issued, sticking your mitts by the muzzle ain't gonna help.

Lowering the frame ramp is an improvement? Oh yeah, you're feeding those stubby rounds in eight shot magazines with no front skirt that tend to nosedive and make the round strike extra low on the frame ramp. I guess one bad idea needs another idea to make up for its shortcomings.

Why are you trying to make the gun feed extra blunt nosed bullets? Remember, the round is designed to glance off the frame ramp on its way to the chamber, then you feed it rounds that not only glance poorly, but are likely to wedge against the roof of the chamber in feeding. Why go there?

What were you early bullet designers thinking when you designed 45 ACP rounds that were supposedly suitable for this pistol?

There were a few things that I think he would have been okay with, like the extension of the grip safety tang in the A1 variant, and I'm sure he would have thought a lowered ejection port would do no harm, but I'm sure the shorty variants wouild have horrified him the most of all.

The gamer crowd smugly feels they have improved the 1911 greatly.

There is ample evidence that they've screwed it up as much as helped it.

Bullshop
12-19-2010, 11:14 PM
Pat I think the 95 was his revenge on Oliver for cheating him out of the 85.

derek45
12-19-2010, 11:43 PM
"I suspect JMB is mighty proud of the great success of the beloved 1911 and what we are doing with it today."

Some of it would horrify him. Specifically:

Eight shots in flush flt magazines. If he felt he could have gotten an eighth shot in a flush fit without compromising something, he would have. Eight shots in flush fit is a minus feature for dependability on the second to last shot or last shot. ...


I disagree.

I've been running WILSON and CMC 8 round mags with 100% reliability for years.
some are over 17 years old and still work perfectly.

I've been to classes were we shot 1000 rounds, and IPSC matches were they've been dropped, kicked, stepped on, and generally abused on a regular basis.


If the 1911 is setup and tuned correctly, it will run 8 rounds mags all day

I agree with you on the Kimber Swartz, and "series 80" too.
My Grandfather didn't need that krapp fighting in World War One.
My father didn't need it when he carried the 1911, nor do I.

waksupi
12-19-2010, 11:45 PM
I agree when you start hanging the gizmos and doo dads on a 1911, you are taking away from the original design, and making it much less effective for a defensive weapon. Get rid of the bells and whistles if you carry one day in and day out for social purposes. Although I carry a Combat Commander a lot, I still believe my full size 1911 is the go-to gun for the purpose.

shootingbuff
12-20-2010, 12:02 AM
I disagree.

I've been running WILSON and CMC 8 round mags with 100% reliability for years.
some are over 17 years old and still work perfectly.

I've been to classes were we shot 1000 rounds, and IPSC matches were they've been dropped, kicked, stepped on, and generally abused on a regular basis.


If the 1911 is setup and tuned correctly, it will run 8 rounds mags all day

I agree with you on the Kimber Swartz, and "series 80" too.
My Grandfather didn't need that krapp fighting in World War One.
My father didn't need it when he carried the 1911, nor do I.

It has been stated by known smiths that the only after-market mags to run was Chip's and Wilson's.

I am glad to see informed comments about the 1911 here and not brand/platform bashing.

Me, I agree with all that has been stated. Only thing that needed to be changed was the sights.

You all have a Great Christmas.

Lee
12-20-2010, 12:42 AM
+1 with waksupi................nuff said............................Lee

PatMarlin
12-20-2010, 01:01 AM
Pat I think the 95 was his revenge on Oliver for cheating him out of the 85.

So JMB got shafted by Winchester on the 1885?

Who is the most innovative firearms designer of all time? JMB.

Just my lonely 3 are remarkable- 1894, 1895, and 1911.

35remington
12-20-2010, 01:16 AM
To clarify my points I'm gonna have to bash a little; some of the "popular" magazines and modifications are the target of this thread. The criticism is well founded; what's unfortunate is that none of the gunzines are willing to offend their advertisers. The result is modifications that are ill advised.

The only thing the eighth shot does is increase the chance the gun will not perform properly.

I did not say it would not work all the time for some......only that the chance of malfunction was increased. Increase the loads from "gamer" levels and the slide strikes the frame with greater force, increasing the odds that the last shot will misfeed. You can risk your standing in IPSC; for me, I may be risking my life. It's a personal choice I will not be making in favor of the eighth shot in a flush fit design. Others will do as they like.

It is the combination of things we use....load, gun, magazine, bullet shape, etc. that determine whether the gun will work or not.

One thing is unquestioned: the eighth shot is NOT a reliability increaser. When springs take a set, the load is heavy, etc. things will go south on you in a hurry.

Ask me about my Ruger P97 sometime. It has the eighth shot added, and they copied Chip McCormick's magazine design, right down to the weak Shooting Star springs and crappy Devel inspired Power Mag follower. It jams wickedly.

And let's face it, the no front skirt/short rear skirt follower on the Power Mag is a serious weakness, or the Chipster wouldn't have gone to the Power Mag Plus. I know a great many discontent with other design features, including some offered by Wilson. So much for "improvement."

"Gamerism" has added some poor ideas to 1911 design. Unquestionably. This has misled many into thinking that their practices are "best" for a 1911, and they most assuredly are not in a great many cases.

And there are all kinds of misinformed gunsmiths out there, just like there are many hacks who work on cars. Not everyone who hangs up a shingle gives good advice, and some of it is downright poor.

Which probably prompted the posting of this thread. Pardon me, but I must expand on it a little, and point out a few of the things that were NOT intended by JMB, and an eighth shot was one of them. So were other magazine design characteristics.

Improvements are not improvements when they attempt to alter how the gun works in such a fundamental way.

Is this post swimming upstream in some cases? Perhaps. But we have to do that when the current is not carrying us in the direction we want to go. It's been long overdue that we started questioning "popular" choices and asked ourself whether that popularity was deserved. For me, those things were not working. And possibly for others as well, so questioning "trendy improvements" is a good thing.

P.K.
12-20-2010, 07:55 AM
I agree when you start hanging the gizmos and doo dads on a 1911, you are taking away from the original design, and making it much less effective for a defensive weapon. Get rid of the bells and whistles if you carry one day in and day out for social purposes. Although I carry a Combat Commander a lot, I still believe my full size 1911 is the go-to gun for the purpose.
Mine too and the only "doo-dad" I'll ever have on mine is a set of CT grips. Before the kids were born it was fine just to carry my SF6PD for my weak hand in low light. Now, no brainer if I'm throwing kids and wife behind cover with the weak side I still have a reasonable chance of putting rounds where I see that little red dot.

casterofboolits
12-20-2010, 10:24 AM
My humble opinion is that any thing can be improved on. I used eight round Metalform and Colt mags converted to eight rounds, both tapered lips and square without feed problems.

Upswept beaver tails cured having a hole worn in the web of my hand during a fifty to sixty round IPSC match. Before the beaver tails, I finished many a match with blood runing down my hand and on the gun. Had to clean the gun right there because blood would rust the gun before I got home! Better sights, usually Hienie fixed sights.

Is there a better platform than the 1911? I don't think so. My Colt Combat Commander is a constant and comforting companion.

Don't think I'm for everything some (so called) pistol smiths have done to the 1911. I hate oversize safetys. I always used the standard Colt and never had a problem. Nor do I ride the safety. I do like a slightly lengthened mag release.

BOOM BOOM
12-28-2010, 02:19 AM
HI,
This is well done.:Fire::Fire:

DeanWinchester
12-28-2010, 02:40 AM
Ohh boy, I'm gonna get it for this.......



Much as Christ came to give us a safer and better way, so too has the New Testament semi auto handguns. All one needs to do is refer to the four Gospels: Glock, SpringfieldXD, S&W MP, and Beretta.


Okay flame me for being the one weirdo not infatuated with 1911. I'll take my comeuppance.:-D

SciFiJim
12-28-2010, 03:15 AM
Glock, SpringfieldXD, S&W MP, and Beretta.

All derivatives of a break through in technology that is the 1911.

waksupi
12-28-2010, 04:28 AM
Only a chicken thief would shoot a dishwasher safe pistol.

[smilie=l:

acemedic13
12-28-2010, 08:32 AM
Only a chicken thief would shoot a dishwasher safe pistol.

[smilie=l:

Thats friggin hilarious!

troy_mclure
12-28-2010, 09:53 AM
i am amused by these guys "if jmb didnt put it on there it doesnt belong!"

jmb was an innovator, an inventor. he created many new designs and techniques.

do you really think that given todays tech and materials he would leave the 1911 as is?

preposterous i say!

deltaenterprizes
12-28-2010, 10:16 AM
I love it !

DeanWinchester
12-28-2010, 10:25 AM
i am amused by these guys "if jmb didnt put it on there it doesnt belong!"

jmb was an innovator, an inventor. he created many new designs and techniques.

do you really think that given todays tech and materials he would leave the 1911 as is?

preposterous i say!



If he were alive today, I think he probably would leave the design alone.....and move on. He never had polymers, synthetics, and molding technologies in his day. Everything was done by hand (which to a certain degree is good, but only so far) or on hand operated machine tools. He didn't have access to five axis machining centers, wire EDM, metallurgical control down to the molecular level. They had to design using their brain, a pencil paper and a slide rule. THey didn't have CAD programs and 3D imaging software.

If JMB were alive today, he would be designing the most cutting edge and technologically advanced small arms ever devised. That's what he did in his day, with the materials and tooling available to him he pushed the boundaries of what is possible but he could only go so far. Today he could go much further. The man was one of the greatest craftsmen, designer, builder to ever live.....Hands down, but he was absolutely an innovator. I doubt very seriously he'd be a slave to steel and wood were he alive today. He'd be using lightest strongest materials out there. He was always thinking ahead and outside the box. Today, he'd be no different.

DeanWinchester
12-28-2010, 10:26 AM
Only a chicken thief would shoot a dishwasher safe pistol.

[smilie=l:

,,,okay, that IS pretty funny.:mrgreen:

DeanWinchester
12-28-2010, 10:30 AM
All derivatives of a break through in technology that is the 1911.

:? are uhhh....Are you sure about that? I mean they do share the whole going bang thing. :kidding:

SciFiJim
12-28-2010, 12:24 PM
IIRC, Hiram Maxim designed the self loading pistol, but JMB came up with the design the worked well enough (stopping power, reliability) for the military to purchase.

4570guy
12-28-2010, 01:42 PM
While the Army did ask for the grip safety AND the thumb safety (so that the pistol could be safe'd by a man on horseback with a round in the chamber), I don't think JMB thought that a bad idea - perhaps redundant. Many of his early pistol designs had the grip safety and no thumb safety.

If modern JHP bullet designs had existed in 1911 - I'm sure he would have modified the feeding characteristics of the 1911 to ensure that they would feed reliably.

As far as 8-shot mags like the Wilson and a few others that extend slightly below the frame, I don't think he'd have a problem with that either. The original Army spec was for a flush fitting magazine. I think the mag designs that drop just below the frame are fine. (The complaint was made against 8-shot flush fitting mags and I have had issues with them. No issues at all with my P97 BTW.)

Interesting that front cocking serrations were brought up. Just yesterday I was reading an article about the Model 1902 pistol and I noticed front cocking serrations on it - it had no rear cocking serrations. I think JMB wouldn't have cared regarding little things like slide serrations.

I love the 1911, but JMB designs were not infallible. I also have a Colt Woodsman - another JMB design. It is a fine shooting pistol, but the thing has more tiny parts than an Swiss watch (its actually an amazing little design, it just doesn't strike me as very durable). I believe the Ruger Mk series .22 pistols are much more durable and reliable.

The 1911 became the pistol it is today because it evolved over many years and had many talented engineers and gunsmiths perfect its function.

deltaenterprizes
12-28-2010, 02:02 PM
John Browning designed the Browning Hi Power also!

MakeMineA10mm
12-28-2010, 02:12 PM
Ohh boy, I'm gonna get it for this.......

Much as Christ came to give us a safer and better way, so too has the New Testament semi auto handguns. All one needs to do is refer to the four Gospels: Glock, SpringfieldXD, S&W MP, and Beretta.

Okay flame me for being the one weirdo not infatuated with 1911. I'll take my comeuppance.:-D


jmb was an innovator, an inventor. he created many new designs and techniques.

do you really think that given todays tech and materials he would leave the 1911 as is?

preposterous i say!


If he were alive today, I think he probably would leave the design alone.....and move on. He never had polymers, synthetics, and molding technologies in his day. Everything was done by hand (which to a certain degree is good, but only so far) or on hand operated machine tools. He didn't have access to five axis machining centers, wire EDM, metallurgical control down to the molecular level. They had to design using their brain, a pencil paper and a slide rule. THey didn't have CAD programs and 3D imaging software.

If JMB were alive today, he would be designing the most cutting edge and technologically advanced small arms ever devised. That's what he did in his day, with the materials and tooling available to him he pushed the boundaries of what is possible but he could only go so far. Today he could go much further. The man was one of the greatest craftsmen, designer, builder to ever live.....Hands down, but he was absolutely an innovator. I doubt very seriously he'd be a slave to steel and wood were he alive today. He'd be using lightest strongest materials out there. He was always thinking ahead and outside the box. Today, he'd be no different.

You all may be interested to note that back in the 1920s, before his death, JMB told Julian Hatcher of the Army Ordnance Dept. that they were making a great decision hiring Irwin Pedersen, as he (JMB) was at the end of his career and that it was time for new and innovative designers (like Pedersen) to take over. He also stated that Pedersen had already made many innovative designs that he (JMB) respected greatly...

Personally, I think JMB would be embarassed at the lavish idolization we make of him. I think he would see it as an abomonation to God, and that he was just sharing his gift of talent, and that there would certainly be others to follow in his footsteps...


All derivatives of a break through in technology that is the 1911.

Well, sort-of. The industrial Revolution was in full-swing when JMB was designing, so some of his advances in METAL work are innovative, but there were no plastics back then. Bakelite was about it, and it was not very usable for firearms...

But applying your same logic, we could say that JMB was not innovative and merely a copier of technology that came before him. His first experimental semi-auto rifle was a toggle-link lever-action Winchester that he fitted with tappet at the muzzle and a linkage to work the lever... I don't think that's fair or realistic and I'm sure you don't either.

Everyone starts somewhere, and no one works in a vacuum and ignores everything else that's out there or had come before.

So, did Glock's designers use the Browning delayed-recoil operation system with a locking block and unlocking ramp? YEP, sure did. BUT, they also didn't lock it like JMB did (on his 1911 and P35), rather they used the change that Sig engineers invented (using a square/block-shape to the chamber area locking into the matching shape of the ejection port).

And, show me where JMB utilized a chasis system imbedded in a plastic lower or where he used trigger-cocking on a striker mechanism?

Harter66
12-28-2010, 02:14 PM
Yes , at last. Wouldn't trade my HP for a train load of glocks ...............maybe if I had chicken theives lined up to pay cash.

4570guy
12-28-2010, 02:48 PM
Personally, I think JMB would be embarassed at the lavish idolization we make of him. I think he would see it as an abomonation to God, and that he was just sharing his gift of talent, and that there would certainly be others to follow in his footsteps...

Very well stated....

Browning was clearly a mechanical genius. Are there better designs? Sure. He felt the Hi Power was his best pistol design yet over the 1911 as it eliminated the link in favor of the cam. If modern plastic technology had been available to him, I'm certain he would have embraced it. Based on what I've read about him he was a forward-thinking man and definitely not stuck on a given design. He was continually tinkering and improving. Some of his designs were failures but he learned from each one. As an engineer I can relate.

The most amazing thing about Browning (to me at least) was his ability to see how something would work before he ever tried it in metal. That - and he was just an amazing machinist to be able to produce what he did with crude tools and his bare hands. Don't forget his brothers helped Browning's career and firearms development immensely and they don't get near the credit in history as they should.

35remington
12-31-2010, 03:13 PM
My point on this thread is that the "improved" designs substituted for JMB's magazine have increased feed angularity or lessened the gun's control of the round as it feeds.

Both reduce reliability, as they introduce chance into the feeding cycle.

This is not an improvement. I agree that things can be improved, sometimes, but these do not do it....they compromise badly in several ways. It's quite easy for me to demonstrate the reduced reliability features of these magazines.

What's slick salesmanship is getting people to buy such magazines anyway, but then most don't know a whole lot about magazines.