Bushmaster is closing

[Jim]

Here's the story. (http://www.keepmecurrent.com/news/article_c4b5bfb0-094d-11e0-bc80-001cc4c002e0.html)

[WILCO]

Funny how nobody there hates the "rich" guy that's trying to create more jobs.
Also, it was typical how the "neighbors" signed a petition to address the noise from the testing that was done on site.

Thanks for the link Jim.

[fixit]

maybe this is a simplistic longshot, but has anyone thought of directing these folks to take the skills they already have and start an employee owned company, doing exactly what they are already doing? kind of give some competition to the corporate yahoos that left them out in the cold!?!

[.357]

maybe this is a simplistic longshot, but has anyone thought of directing these folks to take the skills they already have and start an employee owned company, doing exactly what they are already doing? kind of give some competition to the corporate yahoos that left them out in the cold!?!

that is what i would try to do!

[pressonregardless]

Yep, the Cerberus Capital Management group have Remington and Marlin. By the way they treated their employees at the old Marlin plant, I doubt they will loose much sleep worrying about the Bushmaster employees.

The part about Olympia Snowe helping anyone in the firearms community must be some kind of joke.

[Recluse]

I'm well familiar with the Bushmaster factory and operations--my wife's sister and brother-in-law live within walking distance of it.

The noise from their test firing was anything but regular. From our many visits to North Windham, we could go days and days without hearing a single shot. We heard more shotgun and large-bore shooting from the hunters who would hunt on the outlying areas than we did from the Bushmaster facility.

However, the state of Maine is getting EXACTLY what it deserves with Bushmaster shutting down. My wife is so disgusted with her home state that she often wonders if we'll ever go back even for a weekend visit.

The state has taxed and regulated itself literally out of existence.

Couple of years ago, my wife's father passed away. I had sent the wife up via a commercial flight several weeks earlier. I took our plane up to the Robert LeFleur Waterville airport (KWVL). Upon landing late in the evening, there was no one at the FBO to direct me to parking or for fuel. No big deal--I'm more than used to that at smaller airports.

We take care of family business and then pack up the plane five days later and head back to Texas.

Two weeks after we got home, I get a letter from Augusta (capital of Maine) stating that if our airplane had stayed two more days, it would've been considered "temporary residency" and we would've been sent a pro-rata sales tax charge of $1750.

We were looking at buying my mother-in-law's house in Winslow, but on top of all the taxes and fees, there is an out-of-state fee we'd have to pay for living TOO far away from Maine, and that tax/fee is friggin' ridiculously high.

My brother-in-law designs and builds log homes. He showed me the increased amount of paperwork, fees, licenses and taxes he has to deal with and how much they've increased in just the past twenty years. It's beyond unfathomable.

There is a bridge between New Hampshire and Maine that is in need of repair. New Hampshire is ready to go, but Maine doesn't have the money. The EDITOR of the Portland newspaper even wrote a scathing editorial bemoaning his own state for their zeal in over-taxing and over-regulating their state of of existence.

The governor of New Hampshire even stated (paraphrased) in regards to the difference between NH and Maine: "In New Hampshire, we hate government and love business. Next door in Maine, it's just the opposite--they love government and hate business. That's why we can afford to fix our side of the bridge and they can't."

There are a lot of good people in Maine--I know because I visit with them every time we go up. But Maine has turned solidly into the California of the northeast in both attitude and in the type of people it's attracting.

Portland even put an amendment on the ballot this past November trying to give NON-CITIZENS the right to vote on matters involving the city. They even had endorsements from Maine legislators who wanted to give NON-CITIZENS the right to vote in state affairs.

With mentalities like that in charge, you're going to see more and more companies like Bushmaster say to hell with it and give Maine the big middle finger and walk away.

And unfortunately, I can't blame them one bit.

:coffee:

[9.3X62AL]

If I were a wagering man, I'd risk some folding money that Recluse's comments cut right to the heart of the matter. I got the impression that the news story was leaving a lot unsaid and talking around the real rationale for shuttering the plant. I have a lot of empathy for the displaced workers in Maine, but I would also bet that the pols are shedding crocodile tears over Bushmaster's departure. The same idiot mindset that drives Progressive/Soviet Lite .gov business hostility is also quite hostile to gun ownership and use. Freedom isn't their thing--at all.

[Lee]

Suffering from CRS, I still seem to remember hearing some most disturbing things about the Cerebus group, their leaders, major share-holders, and philosophies.
And one of those foggy memories was a decidedly anti-2nd Amendment tilt.
Anyone here with a better memory than I who can prove/disprove this??
I just don't have a warm and fuzzy about this "group" at all.................:x

[c3d4b2]

Is DPMS / Panther arms next?

[azcruiser]

I think it's about the cost of doing business in Maine and cost overall .Plus why have the plant at all when Rem
can buy the guns cheaper from DPMS have them private labeled to say Remington and have a fixed cost of goods. Thats why Bushmaster is closing It's always about the MONEY when sometimes it should be about the quality .They made a very good product

[82nd airborne]

Bushmaster is coming out with a new product next month. A little confusing. I didnt read the story, but arnt they moving, not closing?

[45 2.1]

Mythical guardian of Hades In Greek myth Cerberus was a horrific dog who stood watch at the gates of Hades

Somehow seems appropriate................doesn't it.

[c3d4b2]

Rem
can buy the guns cheaper from DPMS have them private labeled to say Remington and have a fixed cost of goods.

The Freedom Group owns Remington, DPMS and Bushmaster.

http://freedom-group.com/

[Thecyberguy]

The Freedom Group owns Remington, DPMS and Bushmaster.

http://freedom-group.com/

And Marlin and H&R and others.


I know someone that works there and they said for sometime now they have had no orders to speak of for Bushmaster products....business went from can't keep up and adding people to no work in a matter of a few months. They said they were assembling Rem shotguns to keep the people busy.

I agree with recluse...the dems have been in charge here for 30 years....they have slowly driven most business out of the state. This year the state has been returned to the repubs......of course they can not undo 30 years of [edit] in a few years.

On another note TC is closing in NH.....guess Maine is so bad it crossed the stateline.... TCG

[runfiverun]

tc was bought out airc also.

[gravel]

it's a heck of a brand name in AR's to just throw away.




....business went from can't keep up and adding people to no work in a matter of a few months.


something happened to cause that. was bushmaster advertising cancelled?

[Lloyd Smale]

Just look at all the ar15 manufactures that sprung up during the shortage. It was enevitable that some of them would fail when this crunch ended. Its a dirty crime that a good brand like bushmaster is one of them but they are owned by big time bean counters and if the bottom line isnt profit they could care less about employees. Id bet the name continues and that dpms will be making them along with remingtons but that sure doesnt help all the employees that lost there job right at Christmas. There should be some law that wont allow a company to do this kind of thing in nov dec or jan. Seems like its the norm to do it this time of the year. It must be something to do with taxes

[P.K.]

I'm well familiar with the Bushmaster factory and operations--my wife's sister and brother-in-law live within walking distance of it.

The noise from their test firing was anything but regular. From our many visits to North Windham, we could go days and days without hearing a single shot. We heard more shotgun and large-bore shooting from the hunters who would hunt on the outlying areas than we did from the Bushmaster facility.

However, the state of Maine is getting EXACTLY what it deserves with Bushmaster shutting down. My wife is so disgusted with her home state that she often wonders if we'll ever go back even for a weekend visit.

The state has taxed and regulated itself literally out of existence.

Couple of years ago, my wife's father passed away. I had sent the wife up via a commercial flight several weeks earlier. I took our plane up to the Robert LeFleur Waterville airport (KWVL). Upon landing late in the evening, there was no one at the FBO to direct me to parking or for fuel. No big deal--I'm more than used to that at smaller airports.

We take care of family business and then pack up the plane five days later and head back to Texas.

Two weeks after we got home, I get a letter from Augusta (capital of Maine) stating that if our airplane had stayed two more days, it would've been considered "temporary residency" and we would've been sent a pro-rata sales tax charge of $1750.

We were looking at buying my mother-in-law's house in Winslow, but on top of all the taxes and fees, there is an out-of-state fee we'd have to pay for living TOO far away from Maine, and that tax/fee is friggin' ridiculously high.

My brother-in-law designs and builds log homes. He showed me the increased amount of paperwork, fees, licenses and taxes he has to deal with and how much they've increased in just the past twenty years. It's beyond unfathomable.

There is a bridge between New Hampshire and Maine that is in need of repair. New Hampshire is ready to go, but Maine doesn't have the money. The EDITOR of the Portland newspaper even wrote a scathing editorial bemoaning his own state for their zeal in over-taxing and over-regulating their state of of existence.

The governor of New Hampshire even stated (paraphrased) in regards to the difference between NH and Maine: "In New Hampshire, we hate government and love business. Next door in Maine, it's just the opposite--they love government and hate business. That's why we can afford to fix our side of the bridge and they can't."

There are a lot of good people in Maine--I know because I visit with them every time we go up. But Maine has turned solidly into the California of the northeast in both attitude and in the type of people it's attracting.

Portland even put an amendment on the ballot this past November trying to give NON-CITIZENS the right to vote on matters involving the city. They even had endorsements from Maine legislators who wanted to give NON-CITIZENS the right to vote in state affairs.

With mentalities like that in charge, you're going to see more and more companies like Bushmaster say to hell with it and give Maine the big middle finger and walk away.

And unfortunately, I can't blame them one bit.

:coffee:
I agree 100% with every last little bit. I saw what my beloved state was turning into years ago. I left in the summer of '91 and never looked back. My parents stuck it out untill '98 and moved to N.H. which I still laugh at. Not much of a move I told my Da, he simply said, "Far enough." Part of me hopes that Maine isn't too far gone the way of the PRK, because I'd love to take the kids there someday, but if it's(the state) decided to tax/charge to death the very people who keep it alive( tourism, in the above posters case visitor), I can go the rest of my life with out going back. As a kid I though the out of state fee's charged for hunting and fishing(non-res) were pretty steep, I can only imagine what it's like now as an adult with who knows what else.

[troy_mclure]

tc was bought out airc also.

t/c was bought by s&w a few years ago. they are closing the nh. plant and moving operations(mainly barrel making) to the s&w facilities.

[jr545]

There should be some law that wont allow a company to do this kind of thing in nov dec or jan.

I'm far from being a Cerebus/Freedom Group fan but thinking like this makes me... [smilie=b:

[Geraldo]

Just look at all the ar15 manufactures that sprung up during the shortage. It was enevitable that some of them would fail when this crunch ended.

Very true. I walked into a Gander Mountain early last year and the back wall resembled an armory I saw at Ft. Bragg-nothing but AR15s made by a variety of manufacturers. To paraphrase Henry Ford, you could get any rifle you wanted as long as it was black and in .223/5.56mm. If a company has nothing else to offer, it's in trouble.

[500bfrman]

I don't think Bushmaster is closing, but rather that facility is. Bushmaster rifles will still be available

[Finster101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lloyd Smale
There should be some law that wont allow a company to do this kind of thing in nov dec or jan.

I'm far from being a Cerebus/Freedom Group fan but thinking like this makes me...



Guys the way I read the article they are not closing till the end of March. Sounds like they gave the employees a pretty good heads up.

[jr545]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lloyd Smale
There should be some law that wont allow a company to do this kind of thing in nov dec or jan.

I'm far from being a Cerebus/Freedom Group fan but thinking like this makes me...



Guys the way I read the article they are not closing till the end of March. Sounds like they gave the employees a pretty good heads up.


Good, so then we don't need a new law telling business when they can sell out, move or go bankrupt.

[Thecyberguy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lloyd Smale
There should be some law that wont allow a company to do this kind of thing in nov dec or jan.

I'm far from being a Cerebus/Freedom Group fan but thinking like this makes me...



Guys the way I read the article they are not closing till the end of March. Sounds like they gave the employees a pretty good heads up.

The wooden dowel shop that my wife worked at for 25 years closed 2 years ago. She has found nothing that comes close to what she was making (wages and benefits). So, a 3 month "heads up" is going to suck for 73 people and their families.

I believe in fair trade and it is a company's right to pack up and move so "a law" to prevent this would be against what i would normally believe in.

I don't know as there is a way to prevent the large conglomerates from doing this .

Guess the only way would be for eveyone to buy stock in these big firms and actually cast votes for the board that will do things the way the stockholders want it to be done.

TCG

[Texasflyboy]

Maybe someone can help Barbara out:


"And another local business leader, Barbara Clark, executive director of the Sebago Lakes Region Chamber of Commerce, said she is likewise disappointed and is hoping Bushmaster will indicate why it closed and whether there was anything local leaders could have done to prevent the closing.

"What I'd like to know is why didn't it work here? Is there something about Maine or this region that factored into your decision? What is the reason you're leaving?" Clark said. "I'm not sure we'll get it from them, but that sort of information would help us in the future."

Maybe if she read the same article we did she might have a few clues...

I have to think there are several other businesses reading the same article wondering if they should call Barbara and take her up on her offer.


FWIW....

[jr545]

Maybe someone can help Barbara out:

"And another local business leader, Barbara Clark, executive director of the Sebago Lakes Region Chamber of Commerce, said she is likewise disappointed and is hoping Bushmaster will indicate why it closed and whether there was anything local leaders could have done to prevent the closing.

"What I'd like to know is why didn't it work here? Is there something about Maine or this region that factored into your decision? What is the reason you're leaving?" Clark said. "I'm not sure we'll get it from them, but that sort of information would help us in the future."

Maybe if she read the same article we did she might have a few clues...

I have to think there are several other businesses reading the same article wondering if they should call Barbara and take her up on her offer.


FWIW....

A famous movie quote by Jack Nicholsen was playing in my mind as I read her comments...
The socialists among us just can't come to grips with the fact that socialism/communism will always fail. Hell, we're holding on to our representative republic by a hair now that the leaches have discovered thay can vote themselves a living from the public coffers.
I feel deep inside I know what is coming and it scares the hell out of me.
Pray for peace, prepare for war.

[P.K.]

Should be interesting in the future to see what Smith and Wesson and General Dynamics have to say about their Maine based factories and local policies.

IIRC the plant in Saco now owned by GenDyn now makes Mk-19's they used to be flagged as Rockwell? and produced the M-60 way back when.

[Recluse]

"And another local business leader, Barbara Clark, executive director of the Sebago Lakes Region Chamber of Commerce, said she is likewise disappointed and is hoping Bushmaster will indicate why it closed and whether there was anything local leaders could have done to prevent the closing.

"What I'd like to know is why didn't it work here? Is there something about Maine or this region that factored into your decision? What is the reason you're leaving?" Clark said. "I'm not sure we'll get it from them, but that sort of information would help us in the future."

This woman is an idiot, right up there with Susan Collins and Olympia Snow(job).

When I called her up about getting some info and direction about opening a new business in the North Windham area (our nephew is getting married in a year and wants to open his own business), I asked her why Maine had more taxes and fees and permits than just about any other state east of the Mississippi except for Illinois.

Her reply?

"Well, it costs a lot to live and work here."

[smilie=b:

They TRULY don't get it, in Maine. The bureaucraps and democraps there truly, truly, truly do not understand why out-of-staters have no interest in paying more taxes, more fees, more permits and putting up with more regulations, more ordinances, more rules and more laws that do nothing but benefit the State and not the citizens.

:coffee:

[jcwit]

Gosh Recluse, you gotta admit she is right in that it cost a lot to work and live there, because of her policies and others like her of course.

What a dope.

Advise your nephew to go elsewhere to do a startup.

[OldSchool]

Bushmaster is coming out with a new product next month. A little confusing. I didnt read the story, but arnt they moving, not closing?

Yes, the story said they are moving the facility to New York(!), that gun-loving state.

[azcruiser]

Bushmaster had a good run 30 something years. Freedom Group, that in turn is owned by Cerberus Capital when you look into who's who there and from where it came ?? Their not in it for the long haul or the love .Think Dick Dyke still own's the buildings . I would go out and buy another
Black Gun from him before Rem/Bush/Panther/DPMS

[waksupi]

Phil Jones used to be the Operations Manager for Bushmaster Custom. He is now with Montana Rifle Barrel Co., Kalispell, Mt.

[MakeMineA10mm]

America's decline started when the Repubs and Democraps walked hand-in-hand down the aisle in the 90s passing NAFTA and GATT. That was the beginning of the end, and we're finally seeing it's effects. (It takes 10 or so years for the negative effects to really start showing, and here we are...)

Now, the firearms industry is a little different, in that, there are only two markets for firearms: governments and US (for the most part, but not entirely) civilians. So, American gun industry can't efficiently move overseas without exchanging quality for shipping costs. (To have an import of equivalent quality to US-made firearms, you're going to have higher costs - compare HKs to most medium-high end ARs). And, it would be difficult to move overseas and still compete with the Chinese and Russians.

So, that means to cut costs and increase efficiency, conglomerates buy up all the little guys, many/most of the medium guys, and some of the big ones too... Then they cut, chop, re-combine, and viola! A frankenstein gun company is (re)born. You have, essentially, one company making the guns that 4, 6, or 8 used to, but now all those different brand names are being stamped on in one plant, so there's really no difference, no competition, little innovation, and lots of old-style, skilled workers losing their jobs... This was all very predictable.

When I saw the so-called "conservative" Republicans falling in lock-step with the Democrats to make our "one-world economy" with NAFTA and GATT in the 1990s, I didn't just have a little bile in the back of my throat. I threw up violently! That's what turned me into a third-party guy. I'd LOVE for a new party to get control and pull this country back to the right and repeal NAFTA and GATT. Unfortunately, that would extend the recession/depression for at least 10-15 years, but at the end of that, we'd have America back. As it is now, we are losing our economic power and manufacturing capacity and we're going to look less and less like a world power as time goes by. We already have socialism thanks to NAFTA and GATT, it's just hiding and most people don't understand it, or don't want to admit it.

In the 90s when I said this, I was told that I needed a tin-foil hat and to go out and watch for the black helicopters. And, I gotta say, I wish that conspiracy theory was so far-fetched as to be impossible, but I think at least in the realm of increasing the wealth of the people at the top of businesses like Cerberus, it's at least plausible. Their name is interesting, isn't it? (Check post number 12 by 45 2.1.)

[gravel]

Very true. I walked into a Gander Mountain early last year and the back wall resembled an armory I saw at Ft. Bragg-nothing but AR15s made by a variety of manufacturers.


I was in whittaker guns today, and saw 100 black rifles on the rack.

http://whittakerguns.com

[azcruiser]

Well you have to add a VAT tax of 16% VALUE ADDED TAX to guns going to Germany plus shipping and since there are not as many dealers .They the dealers double the cost including and VAT and shipping so things cost more but you can buy most everything you can get here there. I used to have this company as a customer huge made Cabelas store look small www.frankonia.de go to their web site in the search bar look at Mauser or Smith &Wesson
they had the nicest selection of military surplus rifles and in better condition than the ones we get here .

[pmeisel]

Hey, it seems pretty simple to me. A big corporate money sponsor (Cerberus) buys a couple of financially struggling gun companies (Remington and Marlin), gets them a little healthy and says how can we capitalize on this?

So they buy some other undercapitalized but successful brand names (DPMS, Bushmaster, H&R, others)....

Then they rationalize production (a plant with 73 people may seem big to some of you but it's tiny to people who run factories for a living) -- move some production from little buildings into big buildings.

The people in little buildings just have the misfortune to be living in the wrong place.

As I often say about other things, it's usually about money. Not politics, not fairness, not right living... just money.

[Recluse]

As I often say about other things, it's usually about money. Not politics, not fairness, not right living... just money.

All business is about money and profits. Without either, you don't have a business.

If the (idiotic) state of Maine wasn't so draconian and socialist with their taxes and regulations and fees and permits and ordinances and rules, there would be a helluva lot more businesses moving to Maine and staying in Maine.

Maine has no one to blame but themselves.

Not too many businesses closing up and moving out of Texas. We're business friendly. The libs hate it ("cowtowing to the rich" :rolleyes:)

Tennessee seems to be doing okay. Georgia and Utah as well.

What would be interesting would be to see how the laid off 73 workers vote in the upcoming elections in regards to candidates that promise more unemployment, more entitlements, etc.

I'll wager odds that at least a third of them will vote/support such candidates. I've seen it for the past twenty years up there.

Like I said, the state has nobody to blame but itself. That's why so many of the smart folks who are able are leaving the place in droves.

:coffee:

[c3d4b2]

America's decline started when the Repubs and Democraps walked hand-in-hand down the aisle in the 90s passing NAFTA and GATT.

From my experience at the company I worked for..... The decline was already well on it's way before NAFTA. The company was well along in moving production to Mexico and Singapore. The next move was to South America until China came along and displaced S America. In all fairness I do not think most people realized how much had already left when the NAFTA debate started.

I remember reading an article where one of the head people from Intel was saying Intel would make millions more out of a Fab built outside the United States due to taxes alone. This does not take into account all the other non business friendly requirements.

[c3d4b2]

Duplicate...... Sorry

[rbstern]

Sounds like the Bushmaster brand will continue on.

A year ago, entry level AR15s were selling, used, for $1000. Now they're $650 and still dropping. We're simply seeing a business reality here. Too many brands, too little marketplace.

[azcruiser]

It's a business cycle .The only really successful
firearms are the ones that find a niche. Plus the original owners sold and made their moneys before the new owners decided to move them or close them .Look at Thompson contender when they made just contenders and 2 black powder rifles the were
doing good .Then they started making encores
Then they got bought by S&w and along comes the-VENTURE -ICON- ENCORE PRO HUNTER-OMEGA-RIMFIRE-YOUTH MODEL-TRIUMPH About 2/3 of these are selling at discounts now look at a current CDNN CAT.S&W
made the most popular pistols and revolvers great guns now double barrel-shotgun -over and under shotgun 15 models of ar 15 type rifles in 223 -7 models of AR type rifles in 22 Lr CRAZY- The company that bought Bushmaster doing the same thing Heck REM couldn't give away the Russian over and under cheap shotgun they were importing until they discounted them .To make money you need a niche a quality product good customer service
fair price with a good profit. But in the firearms business you need a DEM elected President
every so often to get the sales spike .Clinton and Obama made more money for the shooting industry than Both Bushes and Regan should make you kind of wonder .Since Bush senior had something to do with Freedom Group, that in turn is owned by Cerberus Capital .But I could be wrong .

[Potsy]

No wonder they're closing it, what with the bottom falling out of the AR market. I'm sure they can move production to another, bigger, plant and be more efficient (profitable).

No, it does not take the lives of employees into account. Capitalism rarely does. What doesn't help is a state (or country) that won't provide an environment where you can find another (non-government) job. At least our leaders and protectors have made sure they can draw unemployment for 3 years.

I do hate to see them move, customer service is usually the first thing to go when you get moved to a big plant, and Bushmaster's was excellent. If I ever did get bit by the AR bug, it would have been a Bushmaster just because of that (it also says volumes about the quality of their employees).

I think in another 5-10 years a lot of companies WILL return to the U.S. I shoot with some guys in middle management for one of the biggest plants in my area. They moved a couple of lines to mexico a few years back. The production and QC situation, according to them, is hopeless and they have not saved a dime by moving there.
Upper management, as with most companies, is not yet bright enough to see it for themselves, and none of the middle management guys dare draw their attention to it, as the mexico plant has become a "sacred cow"; but those are only sacred until shareholders start to get pissed.

[MakeMineA10mm]

I think in another 5-10 years a lot of companies WILL return to the U.S. I shoot with some guys in middle management for one of the biggest plants in my area. They moved a couple of lines to mexico a few years back. The production and QC situation, according to them, is hopeless and they have not saved a dime by moving there.

Upper management, as with most companies, is not yet bright enough to see it for themselves, and none of the middle management guys dare draw their attention to it, as the mexico plant has become a "sacred cow"; but those are only sacred until shareholders start to get pissed.

Yes, but when they move back, they'll be paying 1/2 or less than what they used to pay... And, the gap gets bigger...

[Potsy]

I'd say 1/2 or less is about right.
What comes back will be non-union plants still having to compete with chinese import product.
Good or bad, wages & taxes are why they left. Overall profit is the only reason they'll come back.
Bad QC and production inefficiency WILL eventually catch up to you though. 'Course, that can (and has) happened here too.

[watkibe]

The really scary part is this: look at how many consolidations of companies in the shooting sports industries have taken place in the last few years.

Before too long, our firearms rights could be made mostly theoretical by an "end run" play, if just a few individuals, the CEOs of all these conglomerates, decide that the gun business is "no longer profitable", or maybe just that "good corporate citizens" shouldn't be arms makers. Shut down the manufacturers, and wait for existing supplies of everything to run out, and you have de facto gun control.

Monopolies are illegal. Maybe the NRA should be looking at anti-trust lawsuits. Oh, hey wait ! What about the ACLU ? The Second Amendment is a civil liberty, isn't it ? hahaha !

[82nd airborne]

Watkibe,
That acctually wouldnt hurt a thing, coming from a small time firearms manufacturer. What would happen, is all the big names in the industry would shut down. Small, privately owned, firarms companies would get more buisness, get to hire more people from thier small towns, and you wouldnt get the shortcuts that big companies take when producing a gun. Really the price wouldnt be much, if any, more either. Look at some of us small timers that make AR's, we sell custom AR's at a better price than do the big manufacturers. The same goes with bolt guns. Call the remington custom shop and ask for a price quote on a 700, obscure caliber, lapped lugs, blueprinted action, target crown, non standard contour, polished raceways, free floated barrel, bedded stock and the whole 9 yards. Then ask a small time guy. I just got a gun from the custom shop, for alot of money, then had to strip it down and redo it due, the lack of pride poured into its manufacture.

I think you are right in that the politicians would jump at the brief gap between big guys shutting down and little guys stepping up. Another issue may be, is that the small timers would turn into big corprate companies and restart the cycle. After all, the big manufacturers of today all started as one man shops of families, and turned into a giant, junk producing, but job creating, company thingy.

That really didnt have much at all to do with the topic at hand, my bad!
Merry Christmas to you all, and Happy Birthday Jesus.

[Char-Gar]

Businesses are flocking to Texas in droves. We have very low taxes, no state income taxes, lots of land and a good work force with strong work ethics. We are also a right to work state with no closed Union shops.

Come on down...Texas is open for business!

[c3d4b2]

Good or bad, wages & taxes are why they left.

You might be surprised about the wages. I use to think wages were the driving factor. I then saw a cost breakdown and the wage portion of the cost per piece was minuscule when compared to the other expenses.

Here is a situation I am familiar with (the numbers are for demonstration purposes only).....

If we can put out 6 times the salable product for 6 times the wages, then the company would be foolish to move production elsewhere. Now say the US tax rate is at 40 % higher. We now have to put out 8 times the parts. The other country then pays for a large portion of the capital expenses (which is a major portion of the price per piece). Now we have to put out 15 times the product. Then we start adding in the government regulations that the other country does not have adding more people and cost. Then there are no lawsuits in the other country further reducing the people required and the cost to do business.

Basically we have created an unfriendly business environment in the US. It almost seems as if we worked for free the companies would have a hard time making the money they can building product in off shore facilities.

Here is a link to an article with some of the issues the semiconductor companies are facing.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-20014563-38.html

[pmeisel]

Labor is often a smaller proportion of manufacturing cost than plant overhead, freight, and general administration expenses, across many businesses.

But it just ain't emotionally satisfying to rant about overhead..... I don't think Lou Dobbs, Bill O'Reilly, or any of the others could work up a good rant on that.

[derek45]

Corporate bean counters


http://gameculture.com/files/blogimages/office-space.jpg

[pmeisel]

No, the "bobs" were classic human resources types, the most worthless of corporate overhead IMHO....

Office Space is one of the classic comedy movies, I watch it about once a year it seems. And if you don't agree, it's because "you have led a trite and meaningless life, and are a very bad person...." :-)

[MakeMineA10mm]

From my experience at the company I worked for..... The decline was already well on it's way before NAFTA. The company was well along in moving production to Mexico and Singapore. The next move was to South America until China came along and displaced S America. In all fairness I do not think most people realized how much had already left when the NAFTA debate started.

I remember reading an article where one of the head people from Intel was saying Intel would make millions more out of a Fab built outside the United States due to taxes alone. This does not take into account all the other non business friendly requirements.

You might be surprised about the wages. I use to think wages were the driving factor. I then saw a cost breakdown and the wage portion of the cost per piece was minuscule when compared to the other expenses.

Here is a situation I am familiar with (the numbers are for demonstration purposes only).....

If we can put out 6 times the salable product for 6 times the wages, then the company would be foolish to move production elsewhere. Now say the US tax rate is at 40 % higher. We now have to put out 8 times the parts. The other country then pays for a large portion of the capital expenses (which is a major portion of the price per piece). Now we have to put out 15 times the product. Then we start adding in the government regulations that the other country does not have adding more people and cost. Then there are no lawsuits in the other country further reducing the people required and the cost to do business.

Basically we have created an unfriendly business environment in the US. It almost seems as if we worked for free the companies would have a hard time making the money they can building product in off shore facilities.

Here is a link to an article with some of the issues the semiconductor companies are facing.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-20014563-38.html
You and I must have very different experiences, probably because of the industries we're aware of. In my neck of the woods, Caterpillar is the corporate giant. Somewhere in the late 70s (put into historical perspective, think Jimmy Carter's major recession), Caterpillar started breaking even or losing money and sales fell precipitously. They started looking at costs and a HUGE cost of their business was labor. (UAW at that time had hourly factory floor workers earning more money than people with college degrees [over $20/hr, which was huge money back then] and with the best, most-premium benefits to boot.) It only took a quick glance at the company budget to see how much was being spent on payroll and benefits. 1980, Cat asked the union for concessions. They weren't horrible, but the union balked and a 9-mo. strike ensued. Mgt. made plans RIGHT then to start moving production to right to work states and over the next decade plants sprung up in No. Carolina, Mississippi, Texas, and probably a couple other states I can't remember right now... THIS is what I saw corporate America doing before NAFTA. Moving production from union states to right-to-work states, and paying 1/2 to 2/3 the salary and nowhere near the benefits. Cat didn't start building plants in China (yep...), Mexico, and other places, until NAFTA and GATT went through.

Now, I'm sure something like the electronics industry was different, because Taiwan, So. Korea, Japan, and China had their sites set on that industry from early on, and a lot of production was over there, seemingly from the get-go. But in my experience, and from what I read about in other heavy-industries, it was NAFTA and GATT and it was (and still is) about the costs of labor.

Look at what the Freedom Group is doing. Bought up a bunch of small companies plus the biggest firearms company in America. Naturally, the big plant has all the tooling and machinery needed, as well as a work force. If you need some experience and specialty machines, they can be moved when you close Marlin and Bushmaster. Bushmaster is one of the oldest names in ARs, other than Colt, and Marlin was a 160yr old company. Both of them had high labor costs and relatively aged plants/machinery. DPMS is a pretty modern plant, so it might survive. I also have a feeling it's not a union shop. (Isn't it in MN.?? Anyone know if MN is a right-to-work state?) Freedom Group probably won't close them, although, if the numbers crunch the wrong way, they still might... The interesting thing is, how this plays out in Ilion. I'm pretty sure Remington is a union shop. I wonder if next go-around on negotiations, if there isn't heavy hinting about what will happen to that plant, if they don't make some concessions??? ("We're offering a 5% wage decrease and drastic cuts in benefits, and if you don't accept, we'll move the whole plant to a right-to-work state, and you guys are done...") Mark my words. We'll see how close I can guess the future. (And although I'm not a Remington man, I pray for those workers I'm wrong...)

Need another example? How about Winchester?? It went from Hartford (high taxes and high union labor costs) to the FN plant in the Carolina's (North?), where it's a right-to-work state... And, all that old machinery in Connecticut was replaced by brand new CNC stuff, improving production and lessening the need for skilled workers ( = cheaper to build a similar quality product)... Now, that's good for you and me as consumers, IF the prices come down. My problem is that never seems to happen... In fact, I believe the new prices on Winchesters are a little higher than the old new prices. (They're probably trying to re-coup the costs on those CNC machines faster than they can depreciate them on taxes, to increase their profits even more...) I used to be a Winchester man. Now that I see what's going on with the big names, I'm doing the same with my rifles as I did with my moulds. I'm going to small, custom or semi-custom makers who don't charge outrageous prices, but can produce a very high quality product. (We have some of those guys on our forum here!)


I'd say 1/2 or less is about right.
What comes back will be non-union plants still having to compete with chinese import product.
Good or bad, wages & taxes are why they left. Overall profit is the only reason they'll come back.
Bad QC and production inefficiency WILL eventually catch up to you though. 'Course, that can (and has) happened here too.

Absolutely agree 100%. If you read my above description of what happened at Caterpillar, another thing Cat did (before and after NAFTA and GATT) was start farming out a lot of production of smaller parts to sub-contract machine, welding, and fabrication shops in the area. This was great for the middle-management guys from Cat who "lost" their jobs and then went and started up these companies to provide the parts to Cat. They went from Cat payroll making good money to having their own business and making great money. However, for the thousands of workers who lost their jobs, it wasn't so great. Yes, those jobs re-appeared in the small shops, but they weren't union, didn't pay even close to half, and so the skilled guys didn't take them. Now, QC is **** at those subs, and Cat is paying a certain price in production schedules and other QC problems (warranty work), but it's still a smaller price (and on the back end, for the most part) than what they had been paying in wages and benefits to the premium-pay skilled-workers... Cat went from employing 30,000 people in central Illinois down to around 6-8000 nowadays... Big Yellow ain't so "big" anymore...

An interesting social commentary -- A lot of the guys who work those jobs at the small sub-shops are guys with substantial criminal records, drinking problems, and drug problems. Those same types of guys, who 30 years ago were able to score a job at Cat, earning big money and benefits, typically (not 100% but a really high percentage) were still smart enough to realize that they were in on a good thing, and knocked that kind of **** off. The guys I've got working at these sub-shops couldn't give a **** about their jobs, because there's always another $10/hr. job somewhere, if they run out of drinking and drug money and can't get it a better way (by begging off family or friends or stealing, usually)... They just don't value their jobs, so there's one of about three significant motivators which can get people up and out of poor lifestyle-decisions. (The others being kids/family and religion.) So what, I hear? Well, we're paying the price socially for these misfits. Taxes pay for prisons, social workers, jails, probation/parole officers, courts, prosecutors, more police, and oh yeah - did I mention over half these people are on medical card, LINK card (food stamps), and other social welfare programs?? Yes, it's cheaper for big business, but it's costing us all in taxes.....

(Dang, who put a quarter in me??? :mrgreen: )

[gravel]

(Dang, who put a quarter in me??? )



musta been a pre-64 silver quarter to get that much out of ya. :mrgreen:

I think you had a cathartic experience there. :cool:

[azcruiser]

Winchester was New Haven / Your thinking COLT that was Hartford Colt THAT was mismanagement
in it's highest form. All I can say