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Jeffery8mm
12-16-2010, 11:40 PM
Good evening all. Here is the scenario........
My daughter shot a deer this evening with her .308. Load was 150gr Lee GC pushed by 12gr Unique, CCI 200. Boolit is 50/50 clip/stick-on wheel weights air cooled.
Distance of the shot was 45 yards, broadside. At the shot the deer jumped in the air and mule kicked. Ran about 30 yds out of the food plot and fell dead.
When we went to look for the deer there was NO blood. Nothing, nada, nope!!
We found the deer and there was no blood on the deer. I rolled the deer over, no blood!!! When we got home and got him on the skinning rack, we did find the entrance hole. PERFECT shoulder shot!!! NO exit wound. When I cleaned the deer, the insides were mush. Lots of damage and bloodshot meat on the front end. The boolit appeared to have "disintegrated".
If that deer had run 100 yds, I dont know if we would have found it. Why did this happen?? Should I be water dropping?? Go to straight WW. Move up to a 170gr boolit? Increase velocity?
I really would like TWO holes in the deer we shoot!!!!
Thanks to all who reply!!!!!
Jeff

DeanWinchester
12-17-2010, 12:10 AM
I'm not the great white hunter, but I am at a loss as to what the problem is. It was a relatively clean kill, that's ALWAYS a priority for a respectable gentleman or in this case "Lady".

The blood thing? Well that's bizarre but stranger things happen. I have nothing gainful to add there.

Why would you want TWO holes? The bullet did it's job, granted it is frustrating that you couldn't recover it and glean what data you could from it. I don't see smoking a hole through the animal as beneficial.

Not to be rude, but I think you're trying to find a problem where none exists. I think you and your little girl have a winning set up there. The only thing you need is a "Good Job" and some homemade buttermilk biscuits to lay some slices of that tenderloin on.

waksupi
12-17-2010, 12:18 AM
That is puzzling. At that velocity range, the boolit shouldn't have disintegrated, and given you two holes easily. Granted, it was a low velocity load, but that would tell me you should have recovered a boolit in nearly perfect condition if it didn't get full penetration. I would move up to a heavier boolit on general purposes. I've used the 170 gr. Lee on deer, and always had a good full penetration, and a decent blood trail. The distance the deer traveled is about average in my experience, when the deer or elk actually moves from it's tracks. With a lung shot, I usually have them stand there, sometimes going back to eating, before they figure out they aren't feeling well.

quilbilly
12-17-2010, 12:33 AM
After 30+ years of casting leadhead jigs for saltwater sportfishers, I have noted that not all wheel weights are created equal. I have gotten a few batches over the years that were so brittle that when I made fish shaped jigs with them, they would almost explode when you tried to put that "secret fishcatching bend" on them. Others would be flawed with almost invisible cracks.
Try adding more pure, soft lead and/or do the "soaked phone book test" at 30 yards to see what happens. Put a thin piece of plywood in the middle of the phonebooks to simulate a rib. You will need about 20 inches of phone books.
My experiences with jigs is one reason I do my own alloys or save the "good stuff" I occasionally get amidst the bulk scrap lead.

lwknight
12-17-2010, 01:29 AM
Tin is not just for good casting.
Tin makes boolits tougher and retain their weight.
Tin can make brittle boolits ductile.
Tin is not expensive because you need soooo little of it.

Jeffery8mm
12-17-2010, 09:42 AM
:DAnyone here think I may need to add tin??:D
I have been contemplating that very thing!! I think this will be high on the list!!

Thanks to all so far!!!
Jeff

44man
12-17-2010, 10:01 AM
The boolit was just a little too soft and over expanded. This is the point you have to experiment with the alloy without going too hard.
Too hard can be worse then too soft. Just try water dropping your alloy first to toughen them. I oven harden your alloy. Then try reducing the pure lead if that is not good enough.
Small holes do not bleed good so try for two holes but do not poke them too fast with hard lead either.
Sad too say but deer in the field is where the proof is.

Moonie
12-17-2010, 10:10 AM
I have seen reports on here that the addition of tin helps keep boolits together. There have been experiments with HP pistol boolits with 50/50 ww/pb with the addition of 1-2% tin holding together better than straight 50/50.

Bass Ackward
12-17-2010, 10:21 AM
Weight. The reason hard cast is favored is that it is supposed to control bullet shape. When you rely on a soft strategy, you must have weight to counter what "might" be worn away.

What you did worked fine, just increase the weight with a design that still has a flat on it.

jonk
12-17-2010, 10:32 AM
If the deer only went 30 yards and had massive internal damage, I wouldn't worry much.

243winxb
12-17-2010, 10:33 AM
BHN 15 might work better. 12gr Unique gives you about 1600fps. An increase in velocity with a harder bullet can't hurt. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Alloy_20090610_1.jpg

Jeffery8mm
12-17-2010, 10:44 AM
If the deer only went 30 yards and had massive internal damage, I wouldn't worry much.

You are right, mostly. In this case, sure, the results were great. BUT, here in the state of Ms, particularly where we hunt, there are alot of fresh clearcuts [cutovers]. If this deer had travelled very much farther into the "thick" stuff, he may have been lost due to the fact that there was no blood. Once you have tracked one in a tangled cutover, you will appreciated the leaking deer theory!!!!

I may try to cast up a few [same alloy] and water drop them. Then test in some media. I water brop my "bulk run" pistol bullets already. And I will put my Lee 170gr mold to use more often also.
Thanks
Jeff

Jeffery8mm
12-17-2010, 10:45 AM
243win THANKS!!!! That is useful
The way that chart reads, WW are high lead content and then I ADDED purer lead to them. Prolly not good huh?? How would one go about making tha Lyman #2 alloy out of WW lead
Jeff

Rangefinder
12-17-2010, 11:14 AM
How would one go about making tha Lyman #2 alloy out of WW lead

According to the chart (have it in my books too) you're only about 5% tin away from #2 depending on how accurate your WW composition is. If it's close to what's listed, about 1 lb tin to 19 lbs ww in a 20 lb pot should get you close enough for gov't work. Then you could throw in a little lino or even mono to boost the antimony a tad.

old turtle
12-17-2010, 11:19 AM
I use 2 pounds of WW to 1 pound of Linotype. I seems hard enough for rifle boolits but then again I do not try for max. speed. I also water drop. Might be too hard for hunting boolits.

243winxb
12-17-2010, 11:27 AM
To make #2 http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Alloy_20090610_2.jpg

HORNET
12-17-2010, 12:20 PM
"PERFECT shoulder shot!!! " Do you mean right ON the shoulder joint? On the entrance side? That would explain the extensive damage and bloodshot meat. That's pretty tough even on most C&C jacketed bullets. Something heavier might hang together better and go for the shoulder on the opposite side.

Jeffery8mm
12-17-2010, 01:43 PM
"PERFECT shoulder shot!!! " Do you mean right ON the shoulder joint? On the entrance side? That would explain the extensive damage and bloodshot meat. That's pretty tough even on most C&C jacketed bullets. Something heavier might hang together better and go for the shoulder on the opposite side.

Yep. Right on it. That is the shot I taught her and I think she nailed it. Take out the front locamotion!!
Jeff

runfiverun
12-17-2010, 07:44 PM
thats where your boolit failed to penetrate.
brittle meets bone.
you would have massive damage internally from that and possibly bloodshot entrance wound area.
depending on the entrance angle.
my girl shot a deer this year, right through the brisket and into the off leg at the elbow area.
it went about 7 steps and keeled over.
nothing major hit till it tried to stand up again then she head shot it, which was not necessary but a quicker finish.
a tougher alloy is called for here.
not more brittle, tougher.

GP100man
12-17-2010, 08:54 PM
Tin is not just for good casting.
Tin makes boolits tougher and retain their weight.
Tin can make brittle boolits ductile.
Tin is not expensive because you need soooo little of it.

This is what I was thinkin as I read all the OPs post !

nanuk
12-17-2010, 09:39 PM
thats where your boolit failed to penetrate.
brittle meets bone.
a tougher alloy is called for here.
not more brittle, tougher.


Run5Run: what would make a "Tougher" alloy?

NSP64
12-17-2010, 10:08 PM
Run5Run: what would make a "Tougher" alloy?
Adding some tin. Think of tin as a "rubber cement" that binds all the stuff in an alloy. So as the boolit starts to deform, it doesn't fragment and retains weight for penetration.

Mk42gunner
12-17-2010, 10:46 PM
... Once you have tracked one in a tangled cutover, you will appreciated the leaking deer theory!!!!...

This is very true. I still think about the buck that I trailed 3/8 of a mile down river and 3/8 of a mile back upstream to within twenty feet of where we started, before losing him.

Robert

quilbilly
12-18-2010, 12:49 AM
If you would like to add a little tin but are unsure how to get just the right amount without spending a bunch of money, head for the nearest fishing tackle store (maybe Walmart) and look for lead free splitshot sinkers. They are 100% tin. About 3 size 4 splitshot will "flavor" about 2# of lead. There may be cheaper ways to get tin but if you just want to experiment, a package or two tin splitshot might be just the quantity you need.

wallenba
12-18-2010, 12:55 AM
It possibly entered a major artery and got pumped some ways from the point it stopped. Or is there sufficient debris to constitute the whole boolit?

MakeMineA10mm
12-18-2010, 02:12 AM
Really hard to diagnose from afar, but I'm worried that you're getting conflicting advice too...

First off, having done my fair share of autopsies, let me tell you, bullets can be dang hard to find!! We always x-ray the deceased before we start in order to locate the bullet. It's amazing how many people get shot in the chest and the bullet winds up in an arm or down in the abdomen, etc. So, my first guess (again, not being there) is that the bullet may have shed SOME of itself when it hit that hard bone, but the remainder of it is somewhere in the body, and you just didn't find it, probably because it ended up in a weird, unexpected place. I highly doubt your bullet disintegrated.

This is important to consider. You have some people saying your bullet was too brittle (because of the theory of total disintegration), yet we know your alloy was relatively soft (which almost always results in the bullet hanging together but deforming). So, some people are advising adding tin. Now, this is interesting, because we know that in three-way alloys (tin-lead-antimony) which is what you are making, adding tin doesn't just add ductility. It also combines with the antimony to make a compound that makes an even-harder bullet. Well, if your bullets were too hard to begin with, why do we want to make them harder?? One other thing about adding tin: If you add too much, so that you wind up with more tin than antimony in your alloy, you MAY (not definite) have problems casting decent bullets without wrinkles and deformities. With your alloy of 50/50 WW/soft, you'd want to stay at or below 2% tin added, IMO.

All that said, I 100% agree with you wanting to get complete penetration. Not only will that cause bleed out faster, but it should give you a blood trail to follow, and with that kind of penetration, you have a better shot of taking out both front shoulders which really cuts down on the chase anyway...

I'm guessing your daughter is recoil-sensitive, or you don't want her to get that way? In that case, I would not add more velocity. Stick with the load you've got there.

So, what else to try? I'd go with a heavier bullet. Upping the weight to 170-180grs is not going to add much recoil at all, but it should add another level of penetration. With a low-velocity load, you need sectional density (length/weight) to give you needed penetration. Try a flat-tip bullet, as they deflect less in the body, especially after hitting bone (though nothing is guaranteed -- too many variables). I'd look hard at a 311407 (180gr Loverin design) as it's very accurate, has a flat point, and should penetrate well. I also think it wouldn't hurt a thing to add about 1% tin to your alloy, but I bet the weight will get you where you want to go.

lwknight
12-18-2010, 02:47 AM
adding tin doesn't just add ductility. It also combines with the antimony to make a compound that makes an even-harder bullet. Well, if your bullets were too hard to begin with, why do we want to make them harder??

Oohsh! here we go...
For the sake of a sane and constructive arguement , I will refer to my own water barrel tests at 1500 fps. It is commonly excepted that water is harder on a bullet than flesh . barring bone that is.

Wheel weight alloy without added tin only acts like its harder. That is because there are hard antimony crystals suspended in pure soft lead. The water barrel test results in little sign of expansion and extreme weight loss because as its trying to expand , the would be mushroom is being ripped off.

Now add to that 2 or 3 percent tin and the bullet is about the same hardness but this time you get to see a nice full blown mushroom with 98+ percent weight retention and controlled expansion which means better penetration.

Same test with pure lead yields a full uncontrolled expansion with weight loss and loss of penetration at higher velocities. Yes a soft 30-30 can penetrate deeper than a jacketed 30-06. I know that and its all about bullet design and velocity. Apples to apples though.

I did not suggest that the bullet disintegrated but did suggest adding some tin for ductility and toughness that translates to deeper penetration without losing expansion.

The only 2 drawbacks to using more than 2% tin that I know are the economic aspect and the fact that higher tin content age softens and may not be suitable for rifles.

PAT303
12-18-2010, 04:50 AM
I can't explain it only to say I have shot camels at 100 yards with my 8x57 and Lee maximum boolits that are a mix of WW and range shot and all of them go straight through with no hint of blowing apart.Maybe the close range caused the boolit simply to blow up. Pat

Jeffery8mm
12-18-2010, 12:56 PM
Thanks SO much for all the GREAT info fellows!! I truly appreciate all the help. I am going to implement several of the suggestions made here..............
I am gonna stop by the hardware and get a 1/2lb roll of 95/5 solder. Add a couple ounces per 10lb pot and go back to water dropping. Also going to use my 170gr Lee mold instead of the 150.
I will test this in wet media also
Thanks
JEff

MasterGunnerySergeant
12-18-2010, 08:07 PM
Oohsh! here we go...
For the sake of a sane and constructive arguement , I will refer to my own water barrel tests at 1500 fps. It is commonly excepted that water is harder on a bullet than flesh . barring bone that is.


That’s an interesting paradigm. Do you base this personal observation?

The reason I ask is; fluid is a continuous medium which has the property that when it is in equilibrium, the stress at every point is one of compression, which is to say that when a fluid is a rest, the force on a particular material plane is entirely in the opposite direction as the material plane's normal vector. Fluid is unable to withstand a static shear stress so the reactive force to the bullet would be that of displacement and should only behave as additional drag.

Tissue on the other hand is a compressible solid capable to withstand sheer stress and according to mechanics would impart an equal and opposite sheer stress on the bullet.

I’m not dismissing your observations, it just seems a bit counter-intuitive to the physics of terminal ballistics.

MasterGunnerySergeant
12-18-2010, 08:34 PM
Good evening all. Here is the scenario........
My daughter shot a deer this evening with her .308. Load was 150gr Lee GC pushed by 12gr Unique, CCI 200. Boolit is 50/50 clip/stick-on wheel weights air cooled.
Distance of the shot was 45 yards, broadside. At the shot the deer jumped in the air and mule kicked. Ran about 30 yds out of the food plot and fell dead.
When we went to look for the deer there was NO blood. Nothing, nada, nope!!
We found the deer and there was no blood on the deer. I rolled the deer over, no blood!!! When we got home and got him on the skinning rack, we did find the entrance hole. PERFECT shoulder shot!!! NO exit wound. When I cleaned the deer, the insides were mush. Lots of damage and bloodshot meat on the front end. The boolit appeared to have "disintegrated".
If that deer had run 100 yds, I dont know if we would have found it. Why did this happen?? Should I be water dropping?? Go to straight WW. Move up to a 170gr boolit? Increase velocity?
I really would like TWO holes in the deer we shoot!!!!
Thanks to all who reply!!!!!
Jeff

Have you eliminated the the possibility of an accidental 'hot' load? Meatllurgy is not my area so I won't go there. What you described screams hot bullet, in my experience.

1) what do you estimate or measure the velocity to be

and

2) what's the twist rate of the rifle?

forgot to mention; Sometimes, but not always a tell-tale sing of a hot bullet is a grey cloud of smoke.

lwknight
12-18-2010, 09:01 PM
That’s an interesting paradigm. Do you base this personal observation?

All I can say is that based on my own tests being in harmony with what many others claim is that , just because a bullet performs well in a water test does not mean that it will reliably give the desired effect on flesh.

MasterGunnerySergeant
12-18-2010, 09:10 PM
All I can say is that based on my own tests being in harmony with what many others claim is that , just because a bullet performs well in a water test does not mean that it will reliably give the desired effect on flesh.

I agree 100%. Apparently I mis-understood your point. My apologies to you. I'll try to be more rigorous in my reading next time.

MakeMineA10mm
12-19-2010, 10:45 AM
Oohsh! here we go...
For the sake of a sane and constructive arguement , I will refer to my own water barrel tests at 1500 fps. It is commonly excepted that water is harder on a bullet than flesh . barring bone that is.

Wheel weight alloy without added tin only acts like its harder. That is because there are hard antimony crystals suspended in pure soft lead. The water barrel test results in little sign of expansion and extreme weight loss because as its trying to expand , the would be mushroom is being ripped off.

Now add to that 2 or 3 percent tin and the bullet is about the same hardness but this time you get to see a nice full blown mushroom with 98+ percent weight retention and controlled expansion which means better penetration.

Same test with pure lead yields a full uncontrolled expansion with weight loss and loss of penetration at higher velocities. Yes a soft 30-30 can penetrate deeper than a jacketed 30-06. I know that and its all about bullet design and velocity. Apples to apples though.

I did not suggest that the bullet disintegrated but did suggest adding some tin for ductility and toughness that translates to deeper penetration without losing expansion.

The only 2 drawbacks to using more than 2% tin that I know are the economic aspect and the fact that higher tin content age softens and may not be suitable for rifles.

I don't think we're disagreeing much. If you note the end of my post, I did in fact suggest adding 1-2% tin, as it would not hurt anything. I guess maybe my point wasn't clear.

My point was that this thread can be confusing to someone looking for the real answer, as there is a thought that the bullet was so hard it disintegrated, yet it was made of a fairly soft alloy and not driven all that fast... Yet, even though this condition is on the mind, some people suggest adding tin which does make the alloy harder. Seems to be conflicting ideas. We either have to shed the idea the bullet disintegrated, or we have to not suggest making the bullet harder. I prefer the former. As I said above, I think SOME of the bullet came apart when it hit that bone, but the rest of the bullet veered somewhere and got lost in the body.

I agree with you that tin adds ductility. I also think we're dealing with a load that is equivalent to a really high-velocity pistol load, so WW + 2% tin, is nearly a perfect alloy hardness for that velocity envelope. (Again, why I said to go ahead and add 1-2% tin.) However, I also know that tin, added to an alloy, making a three-part alloy (lead-tin-antimony) does add hardness, which is why I was trying to show the problem with the seemingly opposed theories. See this thread (warning - it's NOT light-reading): http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=40767

Somewhere (possibly that thread above or maybe in the very technical article in the front of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbooks) I read that in a 3-way alloy, having more tin than antimony results in tin-lumps and makes the alloy unusuable. Simple solution is never to have more tin than antimony in the alloy... Binary alloys of just tin and lead don't have this problem.

Bass Ackward
12-19-2010, 11:12 AM
I would only recommend changing one variable at a time less you risk losing the whole dynamic that worked at that velocity level.

Soft bullets change shape especially as you add velocity because of material density. This was the initial thought process behind the Nosler Partition bullet decades ago. And the basis for hard cast today. Try to control bullet shape and thus weight. If you CAN'T control it add more.

For those that doubt water as a testing medium, no matter what living thing you shoot on this earth, 2/3 of it's weight will be water. So if you subtract bone, that's a fairly HIGH percentage of the overall mass. If you want to approximate flesh add wet news print in front of your water to the thickness of entry level flesh. Add comparable sized bone and spray paint it's location if you want even more information.

But testing water works, not for what it does or doesn't do to the slug, but the energy and penetration levels displayed. Any two loads that react the same on water jugs and penetrate the same will have the same performance you see on game. (AT THAT DISTANCE) That's the KEY!

So once you find something that works at multiple ranges, you can recreate that over and over again. The real trick is finding that first reliable load on game that becomes "your" basis for testing. You compensate from there.

mpmarty
12-19-2010, 03:58 PM
Every deer I've shot with cast was penetrated clear through. Most were shot with my 45/70 and two or three with my K-31 using 170gr cast gas checks. Very little blood shot meat and they bled like fountains.

lwknight
12-19-2010, 08:42 PM
I must say , I do not understand the idea of having tin " lumps " in an alloy that has more tin than antimony. My reasoning is first that people have great success with 10:1 alloy and I can't see where a little antimony in the mix could have any effect other than slight hardening. Also antimony is used with pure tin to make hard Babbitt and pewter.
I do think that you can have pure antimony crystals in a 3 part alloy when there is not enough tin present.

Tin is to antimony as water is to salt. It dissolves and suspends it. Thats why we can stir pure antimony into tin/lead at low temperatures when antimony melts at over 1100 degrees.

Secondly , so many casters swear by the 50/50 WW to lead with added tin. That works out to about 2% tin and a little less than 2% antimony in the average case of most WWs today being less than 4% antimony.

Almost all commercial and industrial alloys have about 3 to 1 antimony to tin ratio regardless of the lead content. There just seems to be something magic about this ratio for hardenable alloys. Also excessive tin will definitely negate the hardening effect of antimony. I have some 9-27-64 alloy that is no harder than 2-6-92.

I can see that excessive tin in a 3 part alloy will become a binary alloy with the lead and result in tinned antimony suspended in a tin/lead alloy. This means that the lead is no longer bound to the antimony through the tin. But still , lumps or swirls of free tin seems a far stretch.

pearson1662
12-20-2010, 12:22 AM
The deer didn't bleed because the boolit took out the heart. Without a pump there is no pressure to push the blood out.

nanuk
12-20-2010, 12:34 AM
so what is the bottom line?

WW with 2% tin is a great hunting alloy?

WW/Pb 50/50 with 2% tin is a great hunting alloy?

Jeffery8mm
12-20-2010, 01:02 AM
so what is the bottom line?

WW with 2% tin is a great hunting alloy?

WW/Pb 50/50 with 2% tin is a great hunting alloy?

Yeah, then there is the whole do I water drop or air cool for the best hunting alloy dilemma!![smilie=b::groner:.
Jeff

rockrat
12-20-2010, 01:10 AM
Maybe go up in weight (momentum thing, ya know) if you are going to take out the shoulder joint. Maybe something more in the 180gr range. Maybe the Lee 180 or 200gr. If you want the flat point , go up to the 170gr Lee. RCBS 30-180FP would also be a good one

MakeMineA10mm
12-20-2010, 01:47 AM
so what is the bottom line?

WW with 2% tin is a great hunting alloy?

WW/Pb 50/50 with 2% tin is a great hunting alloy?


Yeah, then there is the whole do I water drop or air cool for the best hunting alloy dilemma!![smilie=b::groner:.
Jeff

My earliest suggestion was to add weight. Try going to a 170-180gr bullet. That will add penetration and get the bullet to hopefully go all the way through, even at the lower velocities of the load being used here.

As far as alloy goes, I think there are a couple possibilities.

First, you could go with straight WW + 2% tin, which is one of the most-commonly talked about / used alloys here at CB, especially for magnum-level pistol bullets (which is the velocity range we're in with this load). This will definitely be a harder bullet than what was used on the deer in post #1 on this thread, and this should increase penetration, even if bone is hit. Might negate the need for a heavier bullet, which was my earliest suggestion, but with this low-velocity of a load, I'd feel better with a heavier bullet, either way... Could mean you don't need a new mould. At these velocities, no need to water-drop. Just air-cool them.

Second, if you want to stick with the 50/50 WW/pure alloy, you could add 1% tin, but this isn't really going to make that much difference on the penetration/shattering issue (and I doubt 2% or more tin would either, due to the three-way alloy's nature), so in this case you'd really need the heavier bullet, IMO.

I suppose, since you're using such low velocities, that there is a third possibility: You could switch to a binary alloy of just tin and lead. This alloy has a huge reputation for being maleable and not shattering, no matter what is hit. The risk is how fast your load is really moving, and whether that goes over the velocity at which this alloy will lead your barrel. 1 part tin to 20 parts lead should be a good place to start, if it will work at all. (Do you have a chrono to check the velocity of what you're already using? That would help answer this question.)


As far as water-dropping, it will make the straight WW + 2% tin much harder, to the point that in a soft-tissue target, it may act like an FMJ, and not give you much of any expansion and lower the terminal effects of the bullet. Typically, water-dropping is used to enhance a bullets ability to handle higher velocities without leading the barrel.

After thinking on it for a moment, I wonder if water-dropping surface-hardens the bullet, or hardens it all the way through? If it just surface-hardens the bullet, water dropping could be REALLY interesting with the 50/50 WW/Pure lead alloy. This could give you a hardened outer surface to handle velocity, but still give a softened core that would resist shattering upon hitting harder resistence... I'm gonna have to go a-looking for an answer on this, unless someone knows and can chime in??



LWK - I know what you mean, but smarter guys than me have written it and shown the proof with scientific evidence. At this point (bed-time on a work-night), I'm not going digging for the reference, but I'm fairly certain it's in one of the two places I mentioned. It sounds like in your last response, you imply that once the antimony and tin combine, any left-over tin just acts like a binary alloy with whatever lead is left over. This was clearly refuted in the resource, because of the chemistry of the three-way alloy. Again, don't have time to go looking, but if you do, it's in one of the two places I cited above. You may disagree with that source, and that's fine, but I'm no where near chemistry-smart enough to disagree with you intelligently. I just know what I read from really smart guys... (I tried disagreeing with them in that thread, and got summarily whooped. I believe the man knows of what he speaks...)

lwknight
12-20-2010, 03:56 AM
I'm not actually saying that excessive tin makes a binary alloy with the lead but , rather was just saying that the idea was more likely the case than the idea of excess tin congealing like a conglomerate.

I don't even understand everything that I know and what I think I know sometimes gets blown away too.

runfiverun
12-20-2010, 02:19 PM
k here is how the excess tin will negatively affect your alloy.
tin and lead mix readily and tin likes lead fine, however tin loves to bond with antimony waaay more.
so if you add more tin than antimony in an alloy it tries to form chain with tin dangling from the end.
the tin wants to bond with the lead but it really wants to stay with the chain.
it is torn from the strengthening chain as the alloy cools and tries to reform with the lead.
i can't do it in time, so it forms free spots of tin surrounded by soft spots of lead.

now when i suggested a tougher alloy your 50-50 is a fine alloy the addition of 1% tin will help immensely by forming the SbSn chain.
antimony adds brittleness and tin is a whetting agent allowing lead to flow better [it does this when solid too]
now how do i get enough hardness with low antimony and low tin to get down my bbl at 1900 fps?
waterdrop the alloy, the rapid cooling will raise the outer part of the boolits bhn but will not affect
the ductility of the alloy.
it also allows you to de-temper the nose making it as soft as the original alloy @8 bhn [in effect a nosler partition] with a base material of 16 bhn or so.
and to steal a line from bass...........test,test,test.
shoot some bones from the butcher soaked in wet paper,and a couple of water jugs behind it.
i also doubt you exploded the boolit as it would have just caused a bad surface wound, but i'd bet you redirected the boolit elsewhere.
i have seen bullets and boolits slide along hard surfaces when they didn't have enough energy to penetrate, or the energy was dissipated on impact.

MakeMineA10mm
12-20-2010, 07:16 PM
RFR - THANK YOU!! Not only did you confirm what I was saying in a difficult way, you explained it so short and easily that even I (a caveman?? :mrgreen: ) could understand it!

Then, you went and confirmed that water-dropping the 50/50 would surface harden while leaving a ductile core!

So glad you chimed in! This will really give a great answer for Jeffery8mm!

Jeff, RFR didn't mention weight, but I'd still go there with more weight. If you can, step up to a 170-185gr boolit, keep using the 50/50 alloy, and water-drop them. That should solve your "problem" (hard to call it that, when you're still dining on venison, isn't it?) of complete penetration and much less worries about the bullet not penetrating.

With those bhn numbers that RFR cited, I might just try this with my 200-yd. "Mattern/Harris" load (16.0grs 2400).

runfiverun
12-20-2010, 11:06 PM
when you are limited by velocity the only other option to gain somewhere is weight.
it's the old heavy slow bullet catches up thing but better.
we are limited with cast boolits by things like excessive rpm's, skidding. not perfect bases,muzzles etc..
the way around it is weight in the instances we can use them effectively.
if you have an excessively short throat and shallow angle a heavier boolit is gonna cause you more problems than it will solve.
but there are ways around the problems,a bit longer nose or a slightly squarer nose profile, a taper right where the throat angle is, and just enough body to fill the case neck to the base.
there is also alloy manipulation, cool alloy,cool mold, room temp tap water gives a lower bhn of the dropped alloy.
your longer thinner boolits are gonna respond better to waterdropping also.
you will hear them clink and clank like silver coins, if you drop them hot as you can from the mold into ice water.

pls1911
12-21-2010, 12:15 AM
50/50 WW/ pure casts soft, heat treats hard and penetrates through shoulders of Texas deer and Hogs to 300 pounds like a hot knife on butter.
I've never recovered one of these after a shot through the spine/shoulder junction, and never had a critter make one move, or even take a step.
Works fine for .30-30 or 45-70 to 2000fps, pushed by reloader 7.

redbeard55
12-21-2010, 05:43 PM
Rather mild load. I would expect not enough gitty up. In Missouri cast boolits are not allowed for deer hunting - wish they were. If you need a big hole for tracking, Nosler Ballistic Tips leave big holes. Otherwise, you might consider a 180 or 200 grain bullet. Might stick together enough to make an exit hole.

lwknight
12-21-2010, 07:57 PM
Does Missouri allow black powder hunting?
You got me thinging about if TX provided for cast bullets or not.
I know that fmj bullets are taboo in almost all states.
I never actually read the exact wording regarding what bullets can be used.