Getting started on rifles

[DeanWinchester]

I've been casting for pistols for a while now, but I want to get into rifles now. I only have two calibers I want to reload for. 7,92x57 Mauser and .308 Winchester.

First, the 308 is a Ruger M77MkII heavy SS barrel 1/10 twist.
Now this old boy is badddd to the bone with it's current load. LC match case, 175g FMJBT match and 43g of AA 2520. It handles the heavier bullets well, I wonder how heavy a [cast] bullet it will efficiently stabilize?

My two 98's...God knows what twist they are. I currently shoot a 170g soft point with spectacular results.


SO, where do I need to start? Work up a slug and drive through each bore and find the diameter then add .001 or .002? I never had to do this with any of my handguns so far. All the stars have been in perfect alignment and I have never had a leading issue. I polish the [Lee] Sizer dies when I buy them until they measure about .0005 over what theoretically should be right. Well, that ain't going to cut it with rifles I'm thinking.

I know I will be using gas checks on both designs.
Not in search of 1/2" groups @ 1000 yards, Minute of clay target is fine until I get going.

I think I'd like to have Accurate Molds make one mold with both bullet designs in one mold. This is going to be low volume until I see the brilliance of it all. I'll buy a bigger mold later if I need.

I doubt my homemade lube recipe will cut it, so I'm sifting through the search function for a while.

Thanks.

[Bret4207]

Why not try simple first. Get an 8mm Karibiner and an RCBS 30-180FN. Both work fine in a variety of my rifles. Both will sell for at least their purchase price if you don't want them on Ebay, a few dollars less here.

[bruce drake]

I recommend few Lee molds to start:
the 170gr Round Nose for your 8mm is a good mold to start and works well with most Mauser barrels. The 8m Karabiner that Bret recommends is available at Mid South Shooters Supply and is a good one as well.
Either the 180gr or 200gr Round nose for your 308 Winchester. Both should stabilize fine in your 1/10 barrel.
You could probably buy the molds and not be out a large amount of money to start out with.

Bruce

[Bass Ackward]

With your standards, you should have an easy go of it. I find rifles much more logical. So I will tell you the easiest way, certainly not the only way.

My advise is not to try to shoot too cheap (overly fast powders)at first or too fast. And avoid a bore ride design to start out if you can. Use a design / bullet weight based upon the length of your throat and case neck; not what you think your twist rate should have.

I recommend a Lovern or LBT design. Regardless of the design you choose, you should try to reach the rifling or fill the throat if you can't. That is within reason of coarse.

I have seen and heard of some pretty HUGE throats on older Ruger guns especially and L O N G on worn militaries. Worst was needing a .301 bullet for a .284 Win. So in a case like this, you'll have ...... more flexibility "IF" you can get a bore ride to fit the bore as a guide or get a good design and reach across the cavern into the rifling with .001 over bore.

Follow that and people will think you are crazy cause you'll be dancin at the range.

[excess650]

Your 308 with 1-10" twist will stabilize even the heaviest 30cals available.

7.92x57mm are typically 1-9.5" twist. Mine has a long, worn throat, so the long bullet works for me.

The Lee 8mm Max available from Midsouth listed as "special order molds" would be a recommendation. They're less than $20 for a double cavity and generally in stock.

For the 30cal, you'll need to see what the throat diameter and length is. There are a ton of good 30cal desings out there. My preferences are the 200gr Saeco #301, 200gr Lyman 311644, and 175gr Saeco #315.

[DeanWinchester]

So ordering some cerrosafe and make a chamber throat casting is a good idea then?

I really don't mind the $$$ as far the molds go. Accurate has a really nice looking boolit design that is listed as 215g and he can make that design .309 or .324 easily. I want something that will work well, but if I can have my cake and eat it too, I'd like something relatively heavy and on the low end of velocity.

Thanks guys.

[NHlever]

One easy way to get started with the boolit diameter is to just try an as cast boolit in a case that was fired in your rifle with a full load. If the boolit slides in the case you are safe as far as diameter goes right there. I use case forming lube on an as cast boolit to slug the bore for a more accurate idea of what is going on there, but really using a diameter that fits the throat is a good place to start.

[leadman]

I find for a powder SR4759 works real well in the rifles, about 18 or 19 grains in the cases you are using. Much easier to get excellent accuracy with than faster powders while less recoil than with slower rifle powders.
I usually can get 3" to 4" groups at 200 yards with my Springfield 1903a3 and better with my Savage 110CL 30-06. I shoot the Lyman 311041 in these guns.

[1Shirt]

:coffeecomWell, to each his own so to speak. I have no problem with the Lee's and like the Karabiner for my 98, and the 150 Lee, or 311291 for starter recommendations. I start all my loads for both the 8MM and 308 regardless of blt. with 16 gr. of 2400 (because I am cheap, and it works), and work up to most accurate load which in my rifles, is normally about 20-21 gr. of 2400. I also use dacron fill for most of my loads, but because of the negative verbage regarding fills, will not recommend it for anyone elso. When I am after (at least in my own mind) bench rest potential for competition, I may go with the slower powders, but USUALLY, I can get an equally accurate load with 2400, or unique depending on what I am looking for vol. wise. Have fun, and Good Luck.
1Shirt!

[runfiverun]

your ruger may have thier typical throat.
my 308 model will barely accept anything other than the rcbs 165 silhouette boolit.
my 358 win model will take the saeco 352 just barely.
going with too much body and not enough nose will cause you to seat your boolit below the neck.
if i try and seat my 30 cal loverign and chamber it.
i end up with all the lube in the case and more boolit in the case than out.
my most acurate load in the ruger 308 is with 4895 the rcbs silhouette boolit and a filler. however a load of 2400 is right close second, and i can do it on my dillon.

[DeanWinchester]

Well, I'm just going to have to sound dumb and ask.
Could I get a little more explanation on the throat thing. It's never been an issue with the J/word. Length was determined by the crimp groove. Accuracy is worth bragging about.
Also I was always under the impression that seating the bullet long enough to engage the rifling will cause a large pressure spike.

Last, I don't know the powders mentioned as I have always used Accurate for everything. #5, #7 and Nitro100 for pistols and I can load all my rifles with 2520.
I thought Unique was a shotgun/pistol powder, I guess that's why the need for a filler.
I have data for AA5744, does anyone use that in their cast loads?




The gunstore I trade with has 4 or five different 30 cal boollits in stock.

Wisdom is telling me I should just go buy maybe 50 of each and experiment with those first.

[DeanWinchester]

your ruger may have thier typical throat.
my 308 model will barely accept anything other than the rcbs 165 silhouette boolit.


Why? Are larger weight boolits too long chamber unless seated excessively deep?

[excess650]

AA5744 would be a suggested powder to start with in the 308 and 8mm. If you can't find accuracy with AA5744, you may not find it at all.

As for OAL, I prefer to seat my cast projectiles to engage the rifling, but not so much as to leave one stuck in the bore when unloading an unfired round. This lessens ''jump" and may well enhance concentricity. Cast projectiles are MUCH softer than jacketed, so pressures are lower to begin with.

I've never used Cerrosafe, but some do. I generally stuff as large boolit as will chamber without resistance in the neck. The neck needs to have enough clearance to release the boolit, otherwise you will see pressure. Crimping jacketed to determine OAL? You must be joking! Not all chambers/throats/leades are cut the same, so seat 'em out until they engage and then back 'em off so that they don't. .015" off the lands usually works for my jacketed stuff, but I don't use the solid copper stuff. That may well need more clearance. Other limiting factors can be magazine length, and action length so as to be able to unchamber a loaded round.

The Lee 8mm Maximum weighs 250gr in my alloy with GC and lube, so definitely heavy. 18gr AA5744 is a mild but accurate load in my K Kale 1944 Turk. Another load with a bit more velocity is 25gr H322.

[DeanWinchester]

Crimping jacketed to determine OAL? You must be joking! .


I never claimed to be a smart man, but the length was exactly what the reloading manual said it should be. With that load, the rifle will hold 1.5" @ 100 yards. I'm just not good enough of a shooter to do better. I have no doubt the rifle will. Anything I would ever kill with that rifle would have a MUCH larger vital area, so I'm happy.


Thank you for the other info, I was hoping I wouldn't have to buy a different brand of powder. I've got a small bit of 5744. I'm going to look into the 250g 8mm, that sounds like fun! Thanks.

[runfiverun]

with jaxketed deep seating only cuts into your powder area.
with bore riding boolits the nose is used to hold the boolit in alignment with the bbl by lightly engraving the rifling.
if you have a cast boolit shaped like a jaxketed round it can and will enter the bbl tilted, the nose can slump rearwards and to the side. you can see what the affects on target will be from this.

now the question is how much area do i have in the leade area in front of the case mouth, what shape is it? 5* 1-1/2*
the idea is to fill this area as full as possible,as closely as possible, as straight as possible.
the rugers generally have a fairly tight, squarish angeled throat.
you still gotta fill this area,but not [at least ideally] have the base of your boolit intrude into the case.
not for powder capacity but to protect your boolit.
now if you have some room there and it's still squareishly cut [like a savage 110] a bit more body to your boolit is desired [something like the rcbs 150 fn which is shaped identical to the 165 silh but with less nose and another driving band]
if your throat is longish and tapered like in a savage 340a or an 03a3 then you would want a loverign design to fill this area.
b.t.w you could probably shrink your groups some with your jacketed round by seating them out a bit.

[onondaga]

You been getting good advice. I use 5744 in my Saco .308 with 3 different Lee molds. I am very happy. Sizing .309 is perfect for my rifle. Make a clean break away from jacketed bullets and make VERY sure all copper fouling is really gone before you fire cast. Switching back and forth from lead to copper can make maintaining your bore a real chore. Shooting all lead or gas checked lead that fits your rifle and your load pressure well is very clean and will not wear your barrel as well.

My next choice for a 30 Cal bullet I really want to hunt with is the Ranch Dog :
http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_5_16&products_id=31

This looks like a killer bullet with a big flat nose for game and I like tumble lube using the 45-45-10 mix very much on all my cast boolits..

Gary

[Char-Gar]

Don't make this stuff confusing. Just do the following:

.308 Winchester

1. Buy RCBS 165 Sil mould.
2. Use ACWW alloy or No. 2 ( NO NEED TO WATER DROP OR HARDEN)
3 Size .310
4. Use 16/2400
5. Seat bullet till gas check is even with bottom of the case neck
6. Primer of your choice.
7. Remove as much metal fouling from your barrel as possible
8. Use any decent lube

Do this as you will get good results to start with.

8 X 57 Mauser

1. Buy Karabiner Mold
2. Size .325
3. Use same alloy as above
4. Use same powder charge and lube as above
5. Seat the bullet by trial and error until the round will chamber without force.
7. Observe No. 7 above.

D0 these things and you will get good results to start with. After you have had this initial success you can play with any of the above, but only change one thing at a time, to keep track of what works and does not work.
Do this and you will get good results to start with. Or do whatever you want to do. I know the above will work and make you happy.

[DeanWinchester]

Awesome, Thank you Chargar.

[Char-Gar]

Dean.. It pains me to see new cast bullet shooters going round and round, like a dog chasing it's tail looking for something that works. It can be very frustrating and discouraging. so I like for new folks to have success first rattle out of the box. Once they know how well cast bullets will shoot, then they can began to play with all of the variables. But, you will find the above loads will do for 95% of your shooting.

When a new person asks a basic question, quite often he is flooded with information, which can be confusing and daunting. That does not mean the information is wrong, just way to much to digest and sort out. So, I try and keep things simple and give enough information but not an overload. Best of luck with your cast bullet efforts.

[Doc Highwall]

Dean, in my 308 Win I have use the SAECO #315 bullet sized .310" lubed with the Bull-Shops NASA lube over 20.5 grains of AA5744 with Federal Gould Medal cases and Remington 9-1/2 primers. With this load I have shot five shot groups as small as .305" at 100 yards. I have changed the cases to the new Lapua Palma cases with the small rifle primer pocket and I am going to be playing with primers and powder charge when the weather gets better. I just purchased a pressure trace system and another chronograph to help with load development. My goal is to shoot the best I can with this rifle at paper targets.

[DeanWinchester]

Dean, in my 308 Win I have use the SAECO #315 bullet sized .310" lubed with the Bull-Shops NASA lube over 20.5 grains of AA5744 with Federal Gould Medal cases and Remington 9-1/2 primers. With this load I have shot five shot groups as small as .305" at 100 yards. I have changed the cases to the new Lapua Palma cases with the small rifle primer pocket and I am going to be playing with primers and powder charge when the weather gets better. I just purchased a pressure trace system and another chronograph to help with load development. My goal is to shoot the best I can with this rifle at paper targets.


Heck yeah!:drinks:
That's a lot better than I'll ever manage. When groups get close to bore size, that's tight.

[DeanWinchester]

I'm almost ready to get going. I bought a Lee C-309-200-R from one the fine gentlemen here.
I went to my local gunshop, ridded myself of a handgun I didn't want anymore and came home with a box of Hornady gas checks and a Lee 309 sizer. (amongst other goodies) I've most likely got some lapping to do on the sizer. I'll have to wait till I get a bore dimension.
Picked up a pound of 5744 and Lymans new book.

Now, can anybody tell me what the difference is in XMP 5744, XMR 5744 and AA 5744?
The only powders I ever load with is AA. I know what AA 5744 is, but what's the difference in it and XMR or XMP??

Depending on the cartridge, Lyman's 49th edition has the different names listed.

[excess650]

They are different names for the same powder, but produced at different times. Since Western Powder bought AA, they dropped the AA name.

[DeanWinchester]

So XMP & XMR refer to a time of manufacture? That's dumb. Sounds like a misnomer to me. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer but it seems like a good way of confusing exceeding cautious people. I will reread the book, but I didn't see a darn thing about that. Personally I think that sort of thing ought to be explained.

[DeanWinchester]

:drinks:BTW excess650, thank you.

[DeanWinchester]

So, I am getting there. I bought a used Lee mold of 200g RN design. After many hours of Leementing today, it casts one heck of a nice boolit. I slugged the bore and came up with a diameter of .3092 -.3096 depending on which end of the rifle you are measuring. I have a .309 Lee sizer and my boolits are falling .311-.3123 and ever so slightly out of round. I'm going to open the sizer up to .3108 - .311. I think that will be perfect for my bore. Correct?

Next. I am using a Lee .308 winchester die set. I have GOT to get the dies to open up the brass more. If I seat a boolit as it is, it will size the boolit down to .309. UNACCEPTABLE. I have a lathe, I can make a larger expander pin but I'd rather not. Is there another solution?

My christmas presents came in today. A chrony, a box of Hornady match brass, a 9mm hollow point mold, a round ball mold for 12g......I got lots to do, I'm rather excited.

Ohhhh, btw, should I be using a match primer? I have a rifle that's worthy of match grade components, I am using brand new match brass, and I will be weight matching my boolits +/- half a grain. Will the primer make a difference? I'll likely use what I have until I get the ball rolling.



Here's the final progression of my dummy rounds I made today as I established OAL. Damn this is exciting!


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/iluvmyferrets/photo-1.jpg

[DeanWinchester]

Oh yeah, thanks everyone for all the help. Catch you guys on the flip side, there'll be a round on me.

[excess650]

You'll need a Lyman M die or something similar. This will enlarge the case neck to facilitate loading cast bullets.

How large of bullet can be chambered without resistance in the neck? Ideally, your cast boolit should fill the throat, or within .0005" (1/2 thousandth). If your rifle has a .311" throat, use a .311" sizer. Flare one of your case mouths and seat one of your UNSIZED bullets and see if it will chamber. Leave it long on the OAL so as to see how long the throat and leade are. Hopefully the nose of your bullet will slide up into the bore without too much resistance. Witness marks along its length are good provided you can unchamber a loaded round without leaving a boolit stuck in the throat.

Match primers? I used F210s in many of my loads, but F210M in some.

5744 in the 308? My 30-30 likes 17gr with 175gr. My 8x57 likes 18-19gr with 195-250gr. The K31 seems to like 21-22gr with 175-200gr, and the case capacity is the same to the bottom of the neck as 30-06. 23-24gr seems to be a sweet spot in a pair of 30-06s with 175-200gr. You may see multiples of sweet spots in your powder charge experiments. Don't be concerned about a little unburned powder with 5744 as it seems to be normal in relatively low pressure loads.

With 5744 I start low and work up 1gr at a time looking for promising groups, checking for leading, etc. Repeat the test groups several times. When you exceed your alloy and/or lube, accuracy will go from acceptable to terrible. Check for lead, and if none visible, go back and try a load that seemed to shoot reasonably well and see if it still does. One of my criteria for a working load is to be able to shoot many rounds without loss of accuracy, and repeatable group size on multiples of days at the range.

[DeanWinchester]

It will chamber an unsized boolit. The one in the picture is unsized. It took 4 or five boolits to get there, but I found the length at which the boolit touched the rifling and set back a couple of thousandths from that. I will play with that number as time goes on.

I really don't want to have to buy another die right now. Lee sizers use a split nut, single slit collet type retainer for the decapping expander pin. I think for right now I will make one large enough to expand the neck in two steps like the Lyman M die does. If it works, it works. Eventually I have to get a neck sizing only die as I only have one 308, there's no need to full length resize and wear out my new brass, and I'll pick up an M die then.

What do you do for a crimp? The edge of case is right in the middle of a lube groove. I experimented with the Lee factory crimp die and I can get a decent crimp without collapsing the case into the lube groove.

Welp, gotta get that expander thing worked out and I'll be off to the range in no time.

[excess650]

Crimp? I don't except for 45-70 and pistol cartridges.

Lyman M dies are pretty inexpensive and are supposed to give a concentric, 2 diameter neck.

[DeanWinchester]

So neck tension should be as tight as possible without causing the boolit to be downsized? That's good to know. It'll take some experimenting to get an expander just right. Thanks!

[Doc Highwall]

Dean, make your M-die only .001" to .002" smaller then your sized bullet. I am shooting a bullet sized .310" and my die is .309" with the larger diameter almost .312" to start the bullet in the case.

[DeanWinchester]

Well, I made a pin that opens the mouth of the case, and will flare the mouth too if needed. I seated an unsized bullet and I used my Lee factory crimp die ONLY to close the very slight bell I made. Tried as I might, I couldn't budge the bullet with my fingers. I pulled the bullet with an RCBS hammer and it measured .3105 That's right where I want to be. I'm thinking of opening up my sizing die to .311. I'll be pan lubing and I'll only need the sizer for seating the gas check and making sure they are round.

So where are the holes in this plan so far? I got a specific lot of brass in from midway and I'm almost finished prepping it. I'm getting anxious to burn some powder but I don't want to halfass anything.





http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/iluvmyferrets/photo-5.jpg

[Doc Highwall]

Dean on your expander I would make it more like this then you will not have to use the LEE crimp die. This one I made out of carbide.

[DeanWinchester]

I would only need to use the crimp die if I flare the mouth. As I have only done one dummy so far, it is entirely possible I won't need a flare.

[Doc Highwall]

Dean, I only use my expander and seat a bullet. The small amount the the case mouth gets expanded does not interfere with chambering and helps with alignment, also the brass gets less work hardening.

[excess650]

I flare the case mouth enough to mostly cover the gas check. I have my seater backed out enough that it doesn't engage to crimp. There is no worry about the neck tension sizing your bullet down in diameter so long as it has a GC.

It sounds like you're well on your way. Make sure you have the copper out of the barrel and go shoot.

[DeanWinchester]

It sounds like you're well on your way. Make sure you have the copper out of the barrel and go shoot.

I bought some of Montana Xtreme 50BMG copper remover. Being an Accurate Arms patron, I had to try it. Holy Shnikies that is the strongest smelling stuff I ever have smelt. There was a warning label on the bottle...... justifiably!!
I spent a rather large handful of patches this time, but wow. I am in doubt that it has EVER been this clean. Bring on the lead. WOOT!

No, sadly it'll be two weeks before I can get to the range. I will have my first 50 rounds loaded next weekend but I'll have to wait. *sigh*

[dverna]

I like the way Chargar thinks

KISS

Dean - get the barrel clean - really clean.

Don Verna