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FWest
12-15-2010, 08:23 AM
I see the M die mentioned for rifle reloading. Is it needed for pistol caliber loads when reloading lead ?
I asked at the local gun, ammo, reloading store and was told only needed for rifle.

oldhickory
12-15-2010, 08:48 AM
They're correct. Pistol die sets, (3 dies) come with an expander die. Some rifle sets come with expanders also, .45/70 & .30 Carbine come to mind right now.

Guesser
12-15-2010, 09:07 AM
I buy old Lyman die sets at gun shows, flea markets, etc. I add the M-die from the old sets to what ever brand I'm using for a specific cartridge. This procedure gives me lots of options when working at loading, example: my 357 Magnum die set consists of 6 dies, basic RCBS 357 set from 1971, added Lee carbide sizer in 1984, added RCBS 38 round nose seater die and later a Lee taper crimp die. My 44 Magnum set is similar with the addition of a Lyman M-die and a Lyman 44 Special RN seater die. I mix and match most of my die sets to get the best of the available tools.

deltaenterprizes
12-15-2010, 09:18 AM
I have had requests for custom expanders for the LEE powder thru dies for specific sized expanders and make them like a Lyman "M" die. Maybe I need to call them "N" dies!
The complaints about the factory dies is that do not expand the case enough and swage the boolits down when seated in the case causing leading due to undersized boolits.

FWest
12-15-2010, 09:34 AM
I'm new to this so just to understand. Due to the larger diameter of lead boolits vs jacketed or plated, the Lee expander included with the carbide die sets does not expand anything more than the case mouth, causing the lead to be unintentionaly resized smaller causing leading issues ?
The M die does more than flare the opening and can be adjusted to a certian depth to stop the resizing of lead ?

462
12-15-2010, 11:03 AM
I use only Lyman M dies, whether for handgun or rifle. Your local store have you some incorrect information.

A Lee expander die doesn't expand, it flares, while a Lyman expander die expands and adds a small step which allows the boolit/bullet to sit squarely in the case, as it enters the seating die. A Lee die allows the boolit/bullet to enter the seating die at some other, odd angle.

Also, Lee seating dies will swage down a boolit. I've had Lee dies put the squeeze on boolits .001" over nominal size. Lyman dies, on the other hand, have readily accepted and properly seated boolits up to .006" fatter.

Experience has proven to me that Lee dies are designed for bullets and Lyman dies are designed for boolits.

FWest
12-15-2010, 11:35 AM
Thanks for the information. I guess I will be needing another few sets of Lyman dies and turrets.

9.3X62AL
12-15-2010, 11:42 AM
Lyman die sets are about the lead-friendliest. RCBS sort of "assumes" jacketed bullets with their internal dimensioning, though their Cowboy Die Sets are a little more accomodating.

The Lyman Powder-Thru-Expander Die spuds are VERY lead-friendly for most of my handguns. They subtract a full die step on my turret/Ponsness-Warren regimen, too.

theperfessor
12-15-2010, 12:06 PM
i make my own M type expander plugs for my RCBS dies for the very reasons 462 points out. I can control neck tension and set the bullet straight in the case before seating.

AZ-Stew
12-15-2010, 12:27 PM
Here's a post with a photo and explanation of the M-die.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=977081&postcount=12

For what it's worth, the expander used in the Dillon progressive presses is more of a flaring tool than anything else. It does expand the case some, but I believe it, too, is designed more with J-bullets in mind. It works, it's just not as good ad an M-die.

Regards,

Stew

Charlie Two Tracks
12-15-2010, 06:33 PM
I was having leading problems with my .38 and .357 boolits. 462 told me about the M die and he was correct. My Lee dies were swaging down my boolits. The M die did the trick for me.

prs
12-15-2010, 06:43 PM
I have used M dies for rifle and RCBS Coyboy dies for pistol. J word bullets of the same size as cast boolits do better with a tighter fit (so I am told) and almost all the die sets are made with J word bullets in mind. RCBS seem to have limited availability of Cowboy dies now, but I notice the larger suppliers do sell the internal size/bell components that fit the same die case. I recently picked up those for 32 Win Spcl, 30-30, and another set for 45 Colt.

prs

Bob J
12-16-2010, 12:51 PM
I use only Lyman M dies, whether for handgun or rifle. Your local store have you some incorrect information.

A Lee expander die doesn't expand, it flares, while a Lyman expander die expands and adds a small step which allows the boolit/bullet to sit squarely in the case, as it enters the seating die. A Lee die allows the boolit/bullet to enter the seating die at some other, odd angle.

Also, Lee seating dies will swage down a boolit. I've had Lee dies put the squeeze on boolits .001" over nominal size. Lyman dies, on the other hand, have readily accepted and properly seated boolits up to .006" fatter.

Experience has proven to me that Lee dies are designed for bullets and Lyman dies are designed for boolits.

This..... I have M dies for all my cast boolit loads both pistol and rifle.... For those not sold by Lyman I have them made by buckshot here on the forum....

Pepe Ray
12-16-2010, 11:11 PM
Lyman die sets are about the lead-friendliest. RCBS sort of "assumes" jacketed bullets with their internal dimensioning, though their Cowboy Die Sets are a little more accomodating.

The Lyman Powder-Thru-Expander Die spuds are VERY lead-friendly for most of my handguns. They subtract a full die step on my turret/Ponsness-Warren regimen, too.

I don't know why this tool has fallen between the cracks. For cast BOOLET shooters in hand guns it is the cats whiskers.

The set comes w/ 2 length capabilities and 7 different caliber sizes plus 2 optionals available.
It's been available since 1996 (the date on my inspectors stamp).

LYMAN -- - - Look it up!!!!
Pepe Ray

markinalpine
12-16-2010, 11:51 PM
I got my first M die to straighten the mouth of .45 AP cases that were getting dinged on the way out of my pistol. did such a great job, I got others to either straighten or round those case mouths. I hardly find it necessary to bell the mouths of cases anyway.
Merry Christmas,
Mark [smilie=s:

35remington
12-17-2010, 09:12 AM
I thought it was worth mentioning that in rifle calibers the M die offers little over what a simple flaring of the neck can do. A flaring tool is all that is needed.

Typically the parallel sided section on the M die expander plug is no different in diameter than the expanding button in the full length die.

Sometimes the M die is smaller!

Kinda lays to rest the claims of superiority for the M die with cast bullets in bottleneck rifle calibers.

Before arguing the point, measure your M die expander and compare to the expander in the full length die.

Then we likely won't have much to argue about.

44man
12-17-2010, 10:07 AM
Pistol or revolver?
Harden the revolver boolits and use case tension. When you use soft lead and open brass too much, you threw the accuracy out with the baby water.

405
12-17-2010, 08:02 PM
With Jbullets, gas checked bullets or fairly hard plain based bullets there may be only a small advantage in using an M die or similar for loading. HOWEVER, there is little choice when loading straight walled cases with fairly soft plain based bullets. Either simply flare the mouth and HOPE the bullet starts straight or is not swaged down or use an M die or similar and be assured the bullet at least starts straight. One advantage I see when loading any cast bullet (and even some Jbullet loads) is that the M die or similar expands the neck and can flare the mouth in one operation and those two operations are in perfect alignment. The Lyman M die has the short step between the main expander shank and the flaring step to further aid in clean, straight bullet alignment when seating. That short step is usually about .090" long and is enough to align the bullet when the base is placed in the case mouth prior to seating- I see that as another large advantage in the system. And, I see similar advantages when loading bottleneck cartridges. With those, I pull the decapping pin out of the sizing die. I use a universal decapper. I use the M type die for neck expanding. For pistol cartridges the RCBS Cowboy is the common choice in certain calibers and Lyman offers a pistol version M die for their handgun calibers.

I had some M type expanders sitting on the bench and decided to measure just for some info. in case someone is looking to purchase and may not know the specs.... at least for these calibers.

RCBS Cowboy 45LC---main exp. shank .451----no short step
Lyman M 45R----------main exp. shank .454----short step .459
Lyman M 45RC--------main exp. shank .457----short step .461
Lyman M 30R----------main exp. shank .307----short step .311

Custom M type expander plugs/dies with or without the step can be ordered from various sources. I've used the ones sold thru BACO for some really out of norm sizing for odd calibers and paper patch loading.

FWest
12-17-2010, 08:19 PM
The info you guys offer is Boolit wisdom, Thanks.

GOPHER SLAYER
12-17-2010, 09:35 PM
Amen to everything 462 said. I "M" die all the cases I load with lead. I make my own "M" dies so I can get exactly the diameter I want.

carlv
12-17-2010, 09:41 PM
I'm unimpressed with the quality of Lyman dies and generally don't use them.
The M dies are an exception; I use them in all pistol cartridges.

I believe there are only 2 different sizes of die body (one for rifle, one for pistol).
The stem of the expander also comes in two lengths. The actual expander plug threads into the stem (always locktite it in place or it will work loose). The die body/stem/plug threads are all interchangeable between pistol and rifle dies.

Buffalo Arms and CH4D also sell custom sized M die plugs.
The CH4D are one piece (no separate stem and plug). Not sure about the BA.

If you call Lyman's order line, they are happy to sell any or all of the parts.
I have generally bought the Lyman dies from whatever mail order house or gun show I could find them cheapest, and then bought extra expander plugs direct from Lyman. If memory serves, they run about $4 a piece. I turn them down to whatever size I require (a drill press, sandpaper and some patience is all you need). Sometimes I will buy rifle caliber plugs and reshape them for use with oddball pistol cartridges.

I usually turn the plug to the smallest diameter that does not reduce the bullet diameter or cause shaving. For jacketed bullets, this is usually ~ 0.003 under bullet diameter. For lead bullets, it varies with hardness and the shape of the
bullet base.
I set up the die to use only enough of the 'step' to seat the bullet straight and
avoid shaving. For semi-autos, the expander sets the proper amount of bullet tension and the taper crimp die does nothing more than adjust the case mouth for reliable feeding. For revolvers, using the expander plug to set bullet tension
as much as possible makes the roll crimp and case length somewhat less critical (with the exception of magnum loads).

I will often have different plugs for lead vs jacketed bullets.
I record the number of turns to needed to thread the expander into the die
body for each type of plug, so I can swap between lead and jacketed bullets easily.

Hope this is useful.

prs
12-17-2010, 09:57 PM
Hmmmm. My M dies stopped the shaving of my boolits and my arns shoot more accurte than my capabilites can challenge; although I'm not so bad for a blind man.

I think I will measure my assortment.

prs

leadman
12-17-2010, 10:01 PM
M dies are very necessary when loading some of the old military guns like the 30-40 Krag, 1903 Springfield, 303 British. Most of these can use boolits at least .310" for the 30-40 & 30-06, up to .316" for the Brit. My Krag easily digests .312" boolits.
Since most die sets size the necks of 30-40 & 30-06 to .306" or so the boolit can easily be sized down while seating, if you can get it started. The Lee Universal Expander is about worthless IMO as it does not expand the neck, just flares the mouth. Very hard to get the boolit started straight.

FWest
12-18-2010, 08:27 AM
Would the expander powder drop dies work with a Lee pro auto disc powder drop ?

405
12-18-2010, 02:31 PM
[QUOTE=carlv;1091222]Buffalo Arms and CH4D also sell custom sized M die plugs.
The CH4D are one piece (no separate stem and plug). Not sure about the BA.

The Custom plugs sold thru BACO are similar to but not identical to CH4D plugs. They are one piece with a step very similar to Lyman.... only the step shank is much longer on the BACO. They have the large lock ring instead of the jam nut so are very easy to change out without changing the plug depth setting.

ofreen
12-18-2010, 06:55 PM
I thought it was worth mentioning that in rifle calibers the M die offers little over what a simple flaring of the neck can do. A flaring tool is all that is needed.
Typically the parallel sided section on the M die expander plug is no different in diameter than the expanding button in the full length die.
Sometimes the M die is smaller!
Kinda lays to rest the claims of superiority for the M die with cast bullets in bottleneck rifle calibers.
Before arguing the point, measure your M die expander and compare to the expander in the full length die.
Then we likely won't have much to argue about.

You are kind of missing the point of the design of the M die. The advantage of the M die over simple flaring lies in the parallel step above the main expanding portion. Rather than a flare, this portion produces an over bullet diameter parallel section in the top of the case neck that allows you to start the bullet straight into the case before seating. Besides eliminating shaving of the bullet, this also allows the bullet to start into the seater die more or less in line with the rest of the cartridge. On the other hand, a simple flare allows the bullet to tilt to one side, so that all alignment during seating falls to the interior dimensions of the seater die and shape of the seater plug. The M die when used correctly greatly aids in the concentricity of the finished round.

For this reason, there are the same advantages whether you are loading rifle or pistol rounds. It even works with jacketed bullets.

35remington
12-19-2010, 02:29 AM
"The M die when used correctly greatly aids in the concentricity of the finished round."

Not all by itself it don't. It doesn't have a patent on straight bullet seating if it is not used, and a lack of an M die doesn't doom a cast bullet user to failure. A tiny lip of brass doesn't have the ability to steer a bullet straight in the case if it is otherwise poorly handled. Properly handled, the "step" is not essential.

I'm not missing a thing with the design "points" of the M die. The "step" bit is quite overrated in claims for straight seating; the same effect is produced by "tapping" the bullet against the stem of the seating plug gently a few times before giving the cartridge the seating stroke. This straightens the bullet with the axis of the neck. Such straight seating is produced with a case merely flared with needle nose pliers.

This, combined with the fact that the "parallel sided" section is no different in diameter than the expanding button in most bottleneck die sets means the same effect can be had by doing something else.

Lyman doesn't have a "lock" on straight cast bullet seating. The "step" feature is not the only way to skin a cat. The seating die itself and how the bullet is handled as the seating is accomplished has more to do with straight seating than any "step."

Reading the propaganda without trying alternatives, and quantifying results, means that you are simply repeating the sales pitch. I decided to look at it more closely as to the veracity of the claims made for the M die, and I am simply saying it is not as essential as many believe.

This is no great revelation.

462
12-19-2010, 11:22 AM
35remington,
Since a case mouth is round and needle nose pliers are rectangular, how, then, is the mouth uniformly expanded/flared?

Even if one determines that an M die is not for them, any flaring type die, at least, makes a uniform opening.

theperfessor
12-19-2010, 12:48 PM
I make my own M type expander plugs for my RCBS pistol dies. I have them in several lengths. One reason is that by running the plug to the proper depth creates a shelf in the case that is in the same place as the base of the seated bullet. I'm convinced that this helps prevent telescoping the bullet into the case in autoloading calibers. The second advantage is it prevents overflaring the neck to prevent cracking at the case mouth.

ofreen
12-19-2010, 01:53 PM
"Not all by itself it don't. It doesn't have a patent on straight bullet seating if it is not used, and a lack of an M die doesn't doom a cast bullet user to failure. A tiny lip of brass doesn't have the ability to steer a bullet straight in the case if it is otherwise poorly handled. Properly handled, the "step" is not essential.


No question, if you are ham-handed no tool will guarantee good results, so that is not the issue. Let's assume proper handling. The M die allows the projectile to be placed squarely in the case mouth before entering the seater die.


"I'm not missing a thing with the design "points" of the M die. The "step" bit is quite overrated in claims for straight seating; the same effect is produced by "tapping" the bullet against the stem of the seating plug gently a few times before giving the cartridge the seating stroke. This straightens the bullet with the axis of the neck. Such straight seating is produced with a case merely flared with needle nose pliers.


The step does exactly as intended as described in reply above. The 'tapping' of the bullet against the seater stem is a good technique provided the seater stem is a reasonably good fit to the bullet nose and the interior of the seater die isn't excessively roomy. But the straighter the cartridge is aligned as it enters seater die, the better. The idea of flaring the case with needle nose pliers for any other reason than a stopgap measure is an interesting one. I guess you could neck-size with a pair of vice-grips and electrical tape, too. But maybe not the best procedure.


This, combined with the fact that the "parallel sided" section is no different in diameter than the expanding button in most bottleneck die sets means the same effect can be had by doing something else.


I went ahead and measured some expander buttons for some different calibers along with corresponding M dies. The results don't jive with your assertion. The plug measurement then the M die step -

cal 224- .222/.226
cal 264 - .263/.267
cal 308 - 3065/.3112
cal 284 - .2825/.2865
cal 410 - .407/.412
cal .458 - .456/.4592



Lyman doesn't have a "lock" on straight cast bullet seating. The "step" feature is not the only way to skin a cat. The seating die itself and how the bullet is handled as the seating is accomplished has more to do with straight seating than any "step."
Reading the propaganda without trying alternatives, and quantifying results, means that you are simply repeating the sales pitch. I decided to look at it more closely as to the veracity of the claims made for the M die, and I am simply saying it is not as essential as many believe.
This is no great revelation.

There are always different ways of doing things. The M die isn't "essential" to get it done. But it does work as advertised. It simplifies the process of loading a cast boolit concentrically, without shaving the boolit, and without excessively working the brass case mouth. All for a very modest cost.

35remington
12-19-2010, 03:59 PM
Gentlemen:

You're missing it entirely.

First, the "parallel sided" section I speak of is the long part of the expander below the step. It is famously quoted as being a mere "thou" under normal bullet diameter to put less deforming "strain" on the bullet during seating. As I previously stated, and was misinterpreted as the "refutation" by ofreen this parallel sided section below the step is no different than the average diameter of the sizing button in the standard bottleneck die.

Measure that, not just the two diameters of the M die. Better "preparation" of the case neck for the cast bullet is not in the cards because the case neck is expanded to very similar dimensions as the standard sizing button.

Ofreen:

Tapping the bullet against the seating stem results in straight initial bullet alignment with the neck (just like the claims for the M die!) using both flatnosed and concave seating stems in my dies; exact fit does not matter, as the gentle contact straightens up the bullet with the case. It works with roomy dies and tight dies. I have a variety of both. Try it, then try arguing.

"But the straighter the cartridge is aligned as it enters seater die, the better."

I disagree. Nothing happens until the case accepts the bullet heel. It can enter the seating die crooked as long as the bullet is not being seated. It is its orientation as it's driven into the case that determines its alignment, and straight alignment is aided if it is aligned with the case before the full seating stroke. Tapping against the stem will do this.

Uniform flaring is quite easily done sufficient to start the bullet in the case; the seating step properly done takes care of the rest. The important part is straight alignment, and once the case is flared sufficiently to admit the bullet heel then all that has been needed has been done.

Initial straight seating is possible absent the M die "shelf." The shelf is not necessarily, otherwise it would not be possible to seat jacketed bullets straight in a regular two die set for jacketed bullets, yet we seat bullets straight without it all the time!

The only step that's really necessary is flaring to prevent snagging of the softer cast bullet heel since it is often completely flat, sharp edged and larger than the opening, with no hard leading edge......and if you insist the "step" on the expander is necessary, tell me how jacket bullets are seated straight without it!

Snag free insertion of the bullet heel is what is needed, first and foremost, with a cast bullet.

"There are always different ways of doing things. The M die isn't "essential" to get it done. But it does work as advertised. It simplifies the process of loading a cast boolit concentrically, without shaving the boolit, and without excessively working the brass case mouth. All for a very modest cost."

Can't disagree with any of that. I do take issue with those insisting that it is better than any other way, because the benefits claimed for it can be achieved by doing something else. Runout and concentricity of rounds thus loaded is just as good. The proper answer to the question "Do I have to have an M die?" is "not necessarily." Especially if the cartridge is removed from the shellholder in the process of being loaded. The only time the M die must stay in the loading sequence is when loading progressively or semi progressively as on my Lee Classic Turret, for instance. Removing the case for hand flaring would slow the process.

This, again, should not be surprising.

I have a great many M dies and use them, but I don't perceive them to be as irreplaceable as is often claimed. Convenient is good, but indispensable they're not. If dies are screwed in and out in the loading of ammunition there is the added inconvenience of adjusting the M die.

Perfessor, I certainly respect your statements as far as making your own plugs, but it is rare for me, (in fact, I never have it happen) that I use the step so deeply in the case that the bullet base is near it. The step just flares the start of the case mouth and goes into it a short distance to widen it enough to admit the bullet base and this is the "accept the bullet heel for straight alignment" the other guys are talking about. The transition between the step and the top of the plug where flaring cannot continue is too close together on the M die plug (as Lyman makes it) to allow me to expand the case neck to the base of the bullet with this step. Further, the diameter above the step does not allow for good bullet tension as Lyman supplies it, as it is overlarge.

Such a plug as you describe would be a two step plug.

Obviously you are improving the M die expanding plug's dimensions to allow this, and I take my hat off to you. Lyman's design does not do this. A careful machinist's can.

Flaring with needlenose pliers is far gentler on the case mouth than the M die or any other type of flaring plug because the taper to the pliers is much, much gentler than the step on the M die; the brass is bent at a very gentle angle. It is the acuteness of the bend that fatigues cartridge brass, and a long tapered needlenose pliers is very gentle indeed.

ofreen
12-19-2010, 05:40 PM
Gentlemen:

First, the "parallel sided" section I speak of is the long part of the expander below the step. It is famously quoted as being a mere "thou" under normal bullet diameter to put less deforming "strain" on the bullet during seating .

And I am talking about that second above bullet diameter step on the M die plug. That second step is the whole point of using the M die for cast bullets. If you are not making use of that second step, then you are right, the M die offers no advantage over the expander plug in the regular sizing die. But if you are not using that step, then you are not using the M die the way it is intended.

35remington
12-19-2010, 06:30 PM
I must respectfully ask that you please read less hastily. This is sending you off in the wrong direction, and you are addressing the wrong things, just as you did on the last post. If we are to have a discussion you can't be tilting at windmills.

Of course I use the step. And that is how the M dies are intended to be used.

This is the part that opens up the case mouth to admit the bullet heel without damage.

And I stand by what I said above. Even using it, as I always do, other ways work just as well. Flaring the case mouth with pliers accomplishes the flaring needs for the case; the long section on the M die is no different than the diameter of the standard bottleneck sizing button.

ofreen
12-19-2010, 08:31 PM
I must respectfully ask that you please read less hastily. This is sending you off in the wrong direction, and you are addressing the wrong things, just as you did on the last post. If we are to have a discussion you can't be tilting at windmills.

Of course I use the step. And that is how the M dies are intended to be used.




I thought it was worth mentioning that in rifle calibers the M die offers little over what a simple flaring of the neck can do. A flaring tool is all that is needed.
Typically the parallel sided section on the M die expander plug is no different in diameter than the expanding button in the full length die.
Sometimes the M die is smaller!
Kinda lays to rest the claims of superiority for the M die with cast bullets in bottleneck rifle calibers.
Before arguing the point, measure your M die expander and compare to the expander in the full length die.
Then we likely won't have much to argue about.

Here is your first post on the matter. You are saying there is little value using the M die since the long cylindrical portion of the plug is the same as a regular expander plug. Your post completely ignores the real function of the M die which entails using that second over bullet diameter step.

It is OK with me if you don't like using the M die and I wouldn't presume to convince you otherwise. Just trying to get the full story to the OP and others that are not familiar with the design of the die. If you believe flaring a case mouth with a pair of pliers is better, handier, quicker, more precise or whatever, it is OK with me.

35remington
12-19-2010, 10:13 PM
" You are saying there is little value using the M die since the long cylindrical portion of the plug is the same as a regular expander plug."

We're getting closer to the point, at least. Here's where you went wrong. Your error in reading that quote was in assumption. Remember I said "in rifle calibers the M die offers little over what a simple flaring of the neck can do. A flaring tool is all that is needed." I mentioned the "diameter of the expanding button in the full length die" which your quote confirms. I did NOT say it was exactly the same as an M die. An additional step is needed to make it identical in function, which is the flaring portion done with needlenose pliers.

The quote was absolutely correct as read. For bottleneck calibers, an M die offers little over what a simple flaring of the neck can do. I'm repeating that for emphasis.

Quite often, users assume the the expander below the step is of "special" diameter that opens the case neck up larger to ease the pinch on the cast bullet which is often a few thousandths larger in diameter. It does not. You read more into the statement than was stated. I specifically mentioned diameter.

"Your post completely ignores the real function of the M die which entails using that second over bullet diameter step."

Absolutely, positively not. I haven't ever ignored its "real function"......which is flaring the case mouth. A needlenose pliers functions exactly the same, which is to ease the starting of the bullet base into the case.

I have a whole bunch of M dies. I am probably as well informed as anyone about its function.

Since the "alignment ability" of the very, very short expanded section of the case doesn't excel the idea of tapping the bullet straight, I do the same thing in a different way, just as well.

Got me now? No contradiction whatsoever was present in anything I printed previously.

And I was interested in the OP getting the correct idea as well....which is that the function of the M die can be reproduced in bottleneck die sets with the addition of a pair of needlenose pliers.

All an M die does that is truly needed is flare the case mouth in bottleneck die sets. The parallel sided section below the step is the same diameter as the regular sizing button in a full length die set (how gosh darn many times do I have to repeat that?), so the M die is hardly irreplaceable. A needlenose pliers fills its function very simply.

Just flare the mouth and you've done the same thing.

35remington
12-20-2010, 12:40 AM
462:

Look at an old Bonanza Cicket case chamfering tool sometime. It was a flat V shape, not round, and a uniform chamfer was produced. A pair of pliers works the same way.

It's easier to try it than theorize negatively about it. It's plenty uniform enough, and tested runout does not suffer.

44man
12-20-2010, 11:25 AM
I have spent a lifetime with revolvers and discovered long ago that they NEED case tension to prevent a boolit from leaving the brass before good ignition. Then I discovered that tension between case to case must be as even as it can be measured.
As lead gets softer, case tension will ruin a boolit so if the brass is opened more, to reduce tension so does accuracy get ruined. There is no rifling to hold boolit movement back and is why some say the jump to the cone must be reduced and that is 100% hogwash.
Long after I found the problem I read in an old Handloader or another rag that a gun writer was getting horrible groups from his .45 Colt. He used his head and found the RCBS expander was too large and he had no case tension. He contacted RCBS and they changed the .45 Colt dies but did not change any others. My worse .44 mag groups were shot with RCBS dies because of the large expander.
I worked on for years even getting BR dies made with sizing collars so no expansion was needed, only a flare to start boolits. I also found the boolits need to resist being sized when seated. Not much of a revelation of course.
I then found that the faster the powder, the harder the lead had to be because of boolit destruction in the cone and gap caused by pressure peaking while the boolit was in the brass.
We are going full circle and too many think light loads need softer boolits and an M die to ease seating, thinking crimp is the answer.
You are working backwards not realizing the revolver is DIFFERENT! :veryconfu Why anyone would use an M die in a revolver just baffles me.
All of Lyman info is based on soft boolits and their products reflect that.
I then bought an M die for my 45-70 BPCR and found the boolits, even though oversize, dropped into the brass. I bought a Lyman neck size die for the gun and it is useless with even a .462" boolit dropping into the brass without expanding at all. Expander does not touch anything, just flares. Money wasted! :evil: I don't need tension but do not want a boolit pulling when I extract a loaded round.
I found the Hornady dies give the most even tension of all the dies. The boolit must be tough enough so it is not sized. A moderate roll crimp will hold boolits.
It has lead to thousands of sub 1" groups at 100 yards, sometimes to 1/2" and accuracy to 500 meters that exceed many rifles.
Yet I still see this M die stuff.

462
12-20-2010, 11:53 AM
35remington,
Granted, I've not tried using pliers as neck expanders, and wasn't theorizing negatively, just trying to understand how they would produce a concentric opening. If it works for you, that's all that matters, and you'll not get an argument from me.

I stumbled upon the M die quite by accident. At one time, all my dies were Lee and the seating dies were swaging down my handgun boolits. I bought a set of Lyman dies, as a trial, and the swaging down stopped.

When I first started casting for rifles, I was using a Lee universal expander die, but, after my handgun experiences, I switched to M dies and Lyman's Precision Alignment seating dies. I still use Lee's collet neck sizer dies, though.

I don't have any substantiated proof that M dies and PA dies make for more consistant, concentric, and accurate loads, but logic tells me that they should.

Let's hope that FWest's question has been answered to his satisfaction and that he is not confused.

44man
12-20-2010, 01:48 PM
35remington,
Granted, I've not tried using pliers as neck expanders, and wasn't theorizing negatively, just trying to understand how they would produce a concentric opening. If it works for you, that's all that matters, and you'll not get an argument from me.

I stumbled upon the M die quite by accident. At one time, all my dies were Lee and the seating dies were swaging down my handgun boolits. I bought a set of Lyman dies, as a trial, and the swaging down stopped.

When I first started casting for rifles, I was using a Lee universal expander die, but, after my handgun experiences, I switched to M dies and Lyman's Precision Alignment seating dies. I still use Lee's collet neck sizer dies, though.

I don't have any substantiated proof that M dies and PA dies make for more consistant, concentric, and accurate loads, but logic tells me that they should.

Let's hope that FWest's question has been answered to his satisfaction and that he is not confused.
You answer was to make the boolit hard enough to open the brass and be TIGHT, not to open the brass first to seat soft boolits.
Accuracy is in the eye of the beholder and some think 2" at 25 yards is great but that would hurt me at 100 yards. Others think scrubbing lead from the bore is what it is all about, can't shoot lead without leading! Not so, my revolvers have not been cleaned in a year and have no lead in them.
This group was shot with a 440 gr PB boolit at 50 yards, cast from WD WW metal with a load of 29.5 gr of 296 from a .500 JRH. It is over 1350 fps and is a THUMPER.
And then a plain old WD WW boolit from my .44 at 200 yards. Notice the group is 1-5/16".
Why keep fooling with stuff that does not work in a revolver?
Pictures are backwards.

old turtle
12-20-2010, 04:11 PM
I may be totally uninformed, but I used cast bullets in 30-06 for practice when I used to shoot highpower matches. I must have shot well over 7000 rounds. I have tried both flaring the case mouth and the M-die. I always got the best results with the M-die. Since then always use them when loading any cast bullets. I found that the bullet is centered in the neck much better with the M-die than using the flaring type dies. Just my experience which is worth what I am charging for it.

44man
12-20-2010, 04:16 PM
I may be totally uninformed, but I used cast bullets in 30-06 for practice when I used to shoot highpower matches. I must have shot well over 7000 rounds. I have tried both flaring the case mouth and the M-die. I always got the best results with the M-die. Since then always use them when loading any cast bullets. I found that the bullet is centered in the neck much better with the M-die than using the flaring type dies. Just my experience which is worth what I am charging for it.
You are loading for a rifle. Please do not confuse it with revolvers. :coffee:

Bass Ackward
12-20-2010, 05:09 PM
I read all of this and I wonder what I have been missing. I don't own an M-die and never have. Coarse I have a good shamfering tool. Ooops, that gives away more about how I size than anything else.

If she won't go in, put the bevel on the bullet not the brass.

That aught to get some smoke rollin out from under somebody's hat.


:popcorn:

theperfessor
12-20-2010, 05:17 PM
44Man -

Do I understand correctly that your problem with M dies, specifically Lyman, is that the smaller diameter section is too large for proper neck tension? I can see that could be a real problem. But I gotta tell you that being able to sit a bullet straight in the case really makes bullet seating easier and faster at least with my loading press (a single stage RCBS) and loading procedures.

Never owned any Lyman dies and I make my own plugs so I can get any size I need. But unless I misunderstand how the Lyman stuff works I bet a little sandpaper and a way to spin the plug would work too.

FWest
12-20-2010, 07:37 PM
After reviewing all the posts I can say, for my needs the M dies should aid in reloading my newly cast boolits. I have a few auto handguns and a 9MM carbine I'm casting/reloading for. I will look into the members tips on what they use and modify to achive clean shooting and accurate ammo.

Thanks to all who posted and I did not intend to start any disagreements. I should have posted on opening what I was intending on casting and reloading for.

Frank

theperfessor
12-20-2010, 07:45 PM
Frank, this is a forum where polite disagreement is acceptable and encouraged.

462
12-20-2010, 09:02 PM
There was some disagreement, for sure, but I don't think there were any ruffled feathers.

The M die is but one tool we casters and reloaders use. Some like Fords, some like Chevys.

Have fun and happy shooting.

44man
12-21-2010, 02:58 PM
44Man -

Do I understand correctly that your problem with M dies, specifically Lyman, is that the smaller diameter section is too large for proper neck tension? I can see that could be a real problem. But I gotta tell you that being able to sit a bullet straight in the case really makes bullet seating easier and faster at least with my loading press (a single stage RCBS) and loading procedures.

Never owned any Lyman dies and I make my own plugs so I can get any size I need. But unless I misunderstand how the Lyman stuff works I bet a little sandpaper and a way to spin the plug would work too.
Yes, I lose neck tension and that does not work in a revolver but to also find the neck too large in the 45-70 PBRC to even hold a boolit was a surprise. I need almost no tension, just enough to keep a boolit from pulling if I have to extract a loaded round.
You are better off making your own for the fit you want.
Now the Hornady expander just enters the brass about 3/8" and that leaves boolits tight at that point but boolits go into unexpanded brass below that point. My revolver boolits bulge the brass and I can see the base and GG's through the brass. Takes a hard and tough boolit.
Some say that was made for jacketed---well--[smilie=p:.
I fully expect as good or better accuracy from cast and since cast has LUBE on them, tighter is better. A soft grease ball in loose brass is going back to the 1800's.
I like soft lube but it must be sticky and Felix lube does it all. I don't believe in a slippery lube at all or one that burns in the barrel.
Boolit alignment in straight wall brass is not much of a problem with good dies.
In a rifle with a bottle neck case it is NOT the seat die, it is the size die that sizes too much and the expander will pull the neck crooked.
Watch over expanding with an extra expander too, it can bend the shoulder.
Brass is the weak link and where accuracy is found or lost. Too many worry about the boolit and destroy the brass.
Think brass, think brass and adjust everything around it, don't fiddle with the brass!

mpmarty
12-21-2010, 03:48 PM
Using an "M" type die on a revolver cartridge sounds to me like a disaster waiting to happen. My 45/70 rounds are loaded with an "M" die and it produces an obvious "step" in the case where the base of the boolit rests before it is seated to its final depth. This produces a nice easy to seat boolit and lends itself to more consistent ammo. I don't worry about boolits pulling out of cases but do worry about them seating deeper and raising pressures.

theperfessor
12-21-2010, 03:59 PM
Would you care to explain the reasoning behind your statement?

handyman25
12-21-2010, 07:20 PM
Thanks to all for your posts.This dissicussion has been very interesting and got me to do some thinking. 44 Man your post gives me hope that I can get my Ruger blackhawks to shoot a reasonable group.

stainless1911
12-23-2010, 01:00 PM
My Lee powder through expander die was swaging down the .40S&W rounds and leading the barrel terribly. Some here were of great assistance in helping me figure out the source of the problem. (thank you). deltaenterprizes made a new expander for me, and it works perfectly! I didn't need it to0 be hollow, as I powder in a separate step. I also had it made to go to a depth slightly further in the case than the bullet would seat. I got the micrometer and checked it carefully, its exactly as I ordered it. Cost was very reasonable as well.