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soldierbilly1
12-13-2010, 09:41 PM
Just bought a new XD9. Love it, super. One problem, shoots the FMJ's really good but my 124 gr'ers Truncated cones, are leading up the barrel. Not really bad but it is a PIA to clean out every time.
Any suggestions on what I can do to lessen or avoid the problem. I use the 124 gr TC and the Lee lube. I put more lube on the sized bullets to see if this would help and it did nothing. still leading. I use about 1% tin with melted mined bullets, do not know the final hardness. Also, 3.8 gr of Titegroup with mentioned bullet, Lee Alox lube.
What do you all suggest? Is it worth buying some lubed lead bullets from Midway to see if the Lee lube is the culprit?
How do I proceed? thnx
billy boy

Ole
12-13-2010, 09:50 PM
Chore boy copper scrubbers wrapped around a .30 caliber bore brush.

You'd be amazed how well this works. It's like magic.

Charlie Two Tracks
12-13-2010, 09:52 PM
I haven't been doing this long enough to give advice but others will. They have helped me out greatly. Your answers won't be long in coming. You might want to tell them what alloy you are using, amount and kind of powder and what diameter your boolit is.

buyobuyo
12-13-2010, 10:03 PM
Have you slugged your barrel? What does it measure? What size boolit does your mold drop? What are you sizing them to? It's possible that your boolits are undersized.

Where in the barrel is the leading? Muzzle, breach, throughout?

462
12-13-2010, 10:10 PM
For starters, buyobuyo about sums it up.

If the leading is at the breech end, your boolit is too skinny. If at the muzzle end, the boolit is running out of lube.

MtGun44
12-13-2010, 10:14 PM
9mm leading is a "most common" problem. Probably too small diam, prob need .357
or .358 to stop leading. Fit is typically the problem. Good lube helps, TL designs are
problematic in 9mm Para, water drop or hard alloy are not only not required but may
contribute to the problem. Occasionally, excess taper crimp can contribute.

Please use search function, we have dealt with this in great detail MANY times.

Bill

geargnasher
12-14-2010, 01:03 AM
I don't shoot 9mm, but I have never had good luck with Titegroup and LLA. Nothing wrong with either one in the correct application, but together I've had bad results every time with .40 and .45 ACP.

There are quite a few issues to address with leading, first is boolit size (are your cases squeezing them down when you seat them causing them to be sized below groove diameter?), alloy vs. pressure (are your boolits hard enough for the pressures?), lube quality (is the tumble lube up to the task?), bore condition, and skidding the rifling from using too fast of a powder. Experiences and philosophies will vary, but I prefer slower-burning powders where possible in my guns because it gives the boolit a more gradual acceleration into the rifling and allows the use of softer boolits without stripping open the land engraving and causing gas leaks/erosion/leading.

As for dealing with leading, use the COPPER Chore Boy brand scubbers as has been mentioned, and I'll add that you can follow up with a bronze brush wrapped with bronze wool. The reason for the copper/bronze is that lead sticks to it like crazy from abrasion. Do it dry, then follow up with solvent/patches.

Since I mentioned how lead sticks to copper, this begs the question: DID YOU REMOVE EVERY LAST TRACE OF COPPER FROM YOUR BARREL BEFORE SENDING LEAD BOOLITS DOWN IT? Not yelling here, just emphasizing, since it isn't mentioned much and often newer casters don't realize how much it matters to get the copper out or you'll have bad leading regardless of having done everything else correctly. Copper fouling will give you fits.

gear

nes4ever69
12-14-2010, 01:59 AM
I belive you are shooting just about the exact load I am doing. My boolits are water cooled is the difference. Check the crimp, for jacketed rounds I did a heavy crimp but with cast one's I do just enuff of a crimp to make sure any bell is out of the case. I also ran my boolits through the lee sizing die. I did get some leading in my Master Peice Arms Defender, but I sent a good 200+ down range but it cleaned up easy with a plastic jag and cloth patch. My high point rifle I dont remeber if I had any leading, I shot both cats and jacket rounds to make sure the 9mm i pumped out worked in both guns I had.

RobS
12-14-2010, 03:18 AM
All good advise and do not to forget about age hardening. Your boolits may be the right diameter to start, but are then, as geargnasher stated, swaged down (squeezed) by the case upon the seating/crimping stages.

Boolits which are freshly cast are more susceptible to case swage as they haven't reached their full hardness. Air cooled can take up to 2 weeks, give or take a bit, to harden enough to keep from being swaged by the case. Water Quenched are hard enough within 24 hours.

Pull a seated and crimped dummy round to see what is going on with the boolit diameter. You want it to come out of the case .001 to .002 over the barrels groove diameter. A lot of people have found their success by sizing to .357 or larger if the loaded round will chamber in their firearm.

soldierbilly1
12-14-2010, 08:22 AM
thanks to all. Looks like I got a bit of work ahead of me!

billy boy

soldierbilly1
12-14-2010, 08:45 AM
9mm leading is a "most common" problem. Probably too small diam, prob need .357
or .358 to stop leading. Fit is typically the problem. Good lube helps, TL designs are
problematic in 9mm Para, water drop or hard alloy are not only not required but may
contribute to the problem. Occasionally, excess taper crimp can contribute.

Please use search function, we have dealt with this in great detail MANY times.

Bill

Bill: the search engine is a fountain of knowledge for sure! Very helpful. thanks billy boy

thegreatdane
12-14-2010, 05:04 PM
There are quite a few issues to address with leading, first is boolit size (are your cases squeezing them down when you seat them causing them to be sized below groove diameter?)

This was my 9mm leading solution. I was crimping more than required thus swaging the diameter down below specs. Be sure to measure the case (@ mouth) of a loaded round. It should be .380 IIRC.

Also pull a loaded round, caliper it, and ensure it's still .001+ slugged bore size.

That's what fixed my troubles.

prickett
12-14-2010, 10:40 PM
Also pull a loaded round, caliper it, and ensure it's still .001+ slugged bore size.


How did you fix this problem? Is there a way to fix it short of having an oversized expander made for you?

RobS
12-14-2010, 10:52 PM
How did you fix this problem? Is there a way to fix it short of having an oversized expander made for you?

Harder alloy or start with a larger boolit diameter in anticipation of the case swage. AC WW or similar BHN in combination with a larger bullet diameter will usually work fine if allowed to fully age harden. Many will water quench boolits to make them harder which results in a boolit that will resist the case strength.

JCherry
12-14-2010, 10:57 PM
In addition to the other suggestions try setting your taper crimp to a minimum. Set it just enough to take out the bell in the mouth of the case.

Have fun,

JCherry

stainless1911
12-14-2010, 11:02 PM
deltaenterprises from this forum made me an expander for the .40 His rates are good, I'll be expecting my part in the mail in a couple of days.

runfiverun
12-14-2010, 11:09 PM
the 9's fun once you figure it out.
a switch to a slower powder fixed mine up. [unique]
i was already shooting 358 sized boolits,and just barely flairing the case mouth enough to seat the boolit.
i am now using a 38 special taper crimp instead of the smaller 9mm one to just barely iron the cases flat.
i also seat the boolits out of the case as far as possible.
i typically use mixed brass and some of the cases were thicker at the bottom of the boolit, squeezing that part down.

thegreatdane
12-14-2010, 11:10 PM
In addition to the other suggestions try setting your taper crimp to a minimum. Set it just enough to take out the bell in the mouth of the case.

That's what finally did it for me. Of course, I water quench too.

LAH
12-15-2010, 10:02 AM
Probably too small diam, prob need .357
or .358 to stop leading. Fit is typically the problem.

After my own heart.

XWrench3
12-15-2010, 10:41 AM
there is also a formula of 50% white vinegar/50%hydrogen peroxide that will disolve the lead in the barrel. there are some bad side effects to this though. 1) and probably most important, is the residue is very toxic. so if you have young kids anywhere around, i would not suggest you use it. if YOU use it, wear rubber gloves! and 2) if you leave it in the barrel much over 5 minutes, it will start rusting/pitting the barrel! dont ask me how i know :( but it does work. the copper chore boy around a brush works quite well, and has NO side effects.

casterofboolits
12-15-2010, 11:40 AM
I've been reloading for 44 years and for years depended on my Lyman manuals and a few articles in gun rags. Also a lot of trial and error.

The 9mm can be a it on the finicy side. Small differences in tolerance can cause major problems that would not bother a 45 ACP.

As others have stated, the the starting point is to slug your barrel. Fit is king. Second is to seat and taper crimp in seperate operations. Third is a good powder, I prefer Blue Dot or AA#7 in my 9's or 38 Super. YMMV I set my taper crimp to .001 per side. A good set of micrometers is a must. Also, an expander/flair tool of the correct diameter for the boolit you are using is another requirement so as not swedge the boolit undersize in the case. Most expanders are for jacketed bullets.

Custom expander sizes can be made or purchased. I made mine as I worked for a company making precision stamping die tooling and my tolerance was plus .0002 minus .0000. My Dad did the hard chrome for the shop, so he put a couple tenths of chrome on them for me.

My Browning HiPower would become a smooth bore with 356 boolits, but was lead free with a 357 boolit. The 357 did the same in my Witness autos.

The suggestions of the board members are based on hard won experience and will help you get your 9mm running with minimal leading.

Centaur 1
12-15-2010, 12:12 PM
I'm pretty new to casting, I've only been doing it since April. After reading so many posts about how finicky the 9mm is I must have got lucky because I've never had a problem, yet. I've used bullseye and unique, I've used LLA, recluse, darr and lithibee lubes, and I've air cooled and water dropped my boolits. They all work just fine. The only difference that I can see is that I don't size any of my boolits. Since I have limited funds I started with just the basic equipment and only buy things that I find necesarry when I can afford to buy them. The one thing that I've never found a NEED to buy was a sizer, my reloads chamber just fine and I never get any leading. The only other thing I do that might help is a light crimp. I adjust the depth of my crimping die by measuring the diameter of the case. Go just far enough to remove the bell from the case mouth. By using a caliper you'll be able to measure the diameter getting smaller with every small adjustment, and just stop adjusting when the case mouth is the same diameter as the case. As long as the cartridge will chamber in your gun, you should be good to go. Good luck making it work, the 9mm and the .38 special are the two calibers that save me the most money by casting and reloading.

Boolseye
12-16-2010, 01:20 AM
I think the leading in 9mm must have a lot to do with the pressure of the round, which can get up near .357 mag levels.

thegreatdane
12-16-2010, 02:37 AM
While its true pressure affects leading, my 357 loves full power lead.

I'm guessing its a size issue.

Boolseye
12-16-2010, 02:09 PM
full power lead without gas check?

runfiverun
12-16-2010, 11:42 PM
yeah.
gas checks aren't needed till you get into skidding and velocity issues.
most revolvers do well without them.
the 9 is a different animal much like the 40 is, overcomeable/surmountable, but some designs need help
the lee t/l in the 9 is a problem child.
i use plain base 429421's in my 445 supermag untill i get up to screaming velocities,or use a soft alloy [softer than 1sn/3sb air cooled for hunting ]then i use a g/c design to help with skidding issues.
how you start the boolit, load it, lube,size of it and how hard it is all can affect the outcome.

Cadillo
12-20-2010, 05:10 PM
there is also a formula of 50% white vinegar/50%hydrogen peroxide that will disolve the lead in the barrel. there are some bad side effects to this though. 1) and probably most important, is the residue is very toxic. so if you have young kids anywhere around, i would not suggest you use it. if YOU use it, wear rubber gloves! and 2) if you leave it in the barrel much over 5 minutes, it will start rusting/pitting the barrel! dont ask me how i know :( but it does work. the copper chore boy around a brush works quite well, and has NO side effects.

Yep! I PITTED a Sig barrel in SIX (6) minutes using it. Bad Ju-Ju! [smilie=b:

soldierbilly1
12-20-2010, 09:55 PM
OK, I slugged my 9mm bore and it is 0.354. My unsized cast boolits are about 0.356 - 0.357. I did size them at 0.356. I think my barrel and boolit dimensions are OK. Upon further review of my Lee setup, I saw I was using way too much crimp (I was loading FMJ's prior to the casts.) Man, those bullets were sucked in at the waist!
My plan: I bought some (Midway) hard cast boolits (with normal grease grooves and real lube, not LLA) and I will load them with little or no crimp using same powder, case, and primer. Hey, I'm feelin' pretty good, thanks to the help on this board!!
billy boy

ghh3rd
12-21-2010, 01:52 PM
I have read about wrapping strands of copper Chore Boy pads on a brass brush to get lead out of a barrel. Somewhere I also heard about something called Big 45 Frontier metal cleaner.

I am experimenting with some boolits and have been getting a lot of leading. I ordered and just received and tried this stuff out, and the lead was gone in just a matter of seconds, without soaking in Kroil, etc. Amazing what the right tool can do. I don't mind putting a plug in for something that works this well for me.

Frontier Metal Cleaner looks a lot like a steel scrubbing sponge made up of thin coiled ribbons of metal. The coils are composed of a proprietary alloy containing stainless steel, nickel silver, monel (a corrosion resistant nickel based alloy), and zinc.

The alloy is effectively "harder than rust but softer than bluing." As a result it can be used to scrape the rust, dirt, and dried greases and oils off blued steel without harming the finish. Moreover, Frontier Metal Cleaner is significantly more effective than other "sponge" cleaners like bronze wool due to the shape of the individual strands.

Since each strand is a thin, ribbon of metal with sharp leading and trailing edges, the "sponge" has the effect of hundreds, if not thousands of small razor blades scraping away at surface build up. Steel or bronze wool, which is round in cross section does not have this advantage.

"De-leads Bores in Seconds"
To add to the cleaner's versatility, it is extremely effective at removing lead deposits from the bore, and goes a long way toward cleaning copper buildup as well. To use the cleaner on the bore, cut a small piece off the pad with a scissors. Wrap the strands around and through a bore brush, and then run the brush through the bore as usual. You will be amazed with the results.


I haven't tried the Chore Boy method, so it may work just as well, but I was so amazed by how well this stuff worked for me I wanted to share my experience. I paid $5 for a pad (no shipping either) from http://www.frontiermetalcleaner.com/


Randy

soldierbilly1
12-21-2010, 02:04 PM
I could not get my hands on Chore Boy copper scrub, but I found Scotch Brite copper pads. They appear to be all copper and not coated steel, I believe. They did work, wrapped around a stiff brush. The lead fouling was pretty bad. I will keep your item in mind. thanks for the help. Happy Holidays!
billy boy

mroliver77
12-22-2010, 08:59 AM
As long as they are copper or bronze and not plated you are good to go. the post above states that copper scrubbing pads ar "round" in section. The stuff I use is flat as if it were cut from a sheet of copper a couple thou thick.
Keep us updated Billy.
Jay

prickett
12-24-2010, 11:18 AM
Yep! I PITTED a Sig barrel in SIX (6) minutes using it. Bad Ju-Ju! [smilie=b:

If the "50% white vinegar/50%hydrogen peroxide" approach appeals to you, you should instead try the Outers Foul Out unit. It saved me hours of deleading while working through my issues. It is completely safe (at least I've never experienced any issues, nor have I heard of any), and completely effective.

soldierbilly1
01-01-2011, 06:20 PM
Okay, I went and shot some Hunters supply hard cast bullets in my XD9. I used very little crimp with my Titegroup and all went fine, the barrel was as clean as a whistle! this boolit has a nice grease groove, no lube star was noted at the end of the barrel. pretty accurate too.
I then used my Lee TC, TL boolits in my 9 with little or no crimp, and voila! they were OK, lotsa fouling though! maybe the funky Lee lube (??). I added a little extra lube to these guys, just tipped a litte more in. Seems to be working, no leading. clean up was quick. They shot well BTW. (boolits were about 2 months old)

Summary, little or no crimp, old boolits, maybe slightly more lube, did the trick.
thanks for all the help on this board! lots of experience and knowledge too!
billy boy center 'em up

thegreatdane
01-04-2011, 02:13 AM
You're very welcome. Glad it worked out. Have fun.

RSOJim
01-04-2011, 07:57 AM
I think I was the first one on this forum to report on Big 45 Frontier metal cleaner several years ago. I first read about this product from an article Skeeter Skelton wrote many years ago. It just flat works, period.

JudgeBAC
04-14-2011, 09:48 PM
Ditto on the Big 45 Frontier Metal cleaner. Chore boy works OK but it does not wrap around a brush nearly as easy as big 45 and it does not clean as well either. My first experience with Big 45 was this evening. A new to me 6" Security six leaded with a 358156. The gent I got this gun from had fired less than 50 rounds through it. It was made in 1976. You can look down the bore and tell it needs to be fire lapped. At any rate, after shooting it, I ran some wet patches of Cowboy blend down the bore and let it sit a while. I then ran some patches through it after which I used the big 45. After about 4-5 passes the bore was completely clean. My only complaint is once you use this stuff on a brush, the brush is toast and is useless. A small price to pay for a clean gun however. It beats the heck out of scrubbing till your arms get sore.

As RSO jim said "It just flat works, period."