boolit length & weight

[bigted]

im casting with straight ww's and out of a lee bottom pour pot. the moulds are lyman 45cal in the 457125 500gr and the 457643 400gr boolits.

at first i had very wrinkled boolits and threw em back till everything got warmed up and started to get shiney boolits. i cast around 30 of the 400's and around 20 500's. went inside to weigh and found a wide variance of around 2 to 3 grains in both 4 and 5 hundred gr's. also the diameter is on the small size being 457 to 4575 for the 400's and for the 500's im getting 4575 to 458 diameter. i summed it up as being a newby and settled on loading them and shooting them just to feel the soul of these boolits.

all was fine till i meassured the oal of more then the first two of my loaded shells...this being varried in the 20th varriance in length. now i was puzzeled so i went back to the bench to meassure my remaining boolits....found that here was my diff in length.

after thinking and reading about casting and the larger boolits i settled on maybe the answer to my puzzel. i ordered a lyman dipper pot and a dipper to dip pour my moulds. hopefully this will solve the differences in my cast boolits.

what say yee???[smilie=s:

[x101airborne]

On the big boys, you will definately get more consistency with a dipper as opposed to a bottom pour. BUT.... I shoot a 450 gr. round nose and a 5 grain total variance in weight and a ccouple thousandths in length do not show in my groups. Be critical and measure weight width, length, etc. of 5 boolits. load them as well as you can. then load 5 of the ones that are WAY off. If your group opens more than around .25 inch, I would like to hear about it.

[bigted]

rite on...just to be clear tho...my boolits differ in length by around 20 thousands...thats .020...enough that if i try to get em to kiss the lands in my chamber...they either will crush or be off the land by the 20 thousands.

maybe this will have nothing to do with accuracy so i will experiment further when the temp here comes up to an agreeable level to be out in. ....... -27 degree today....yep thats 27 below zero! havnt heard of anybody casting in this cold of weather but thats another post i think.

thanks

[454PB]

I wouldn't worry about a weight variance of 2 to 4 grains, that's a very small percentage, but smaller than expected diameter and a variance of .020" in length is a problem.

When I cast with straight WW alloy, I want the alloy and mould hot enough so the resulting boolits are frosted. Any that are shiny are returned to the melt.

I also have never seen the advantage of dipper pouring over a bottom draw, even with large boolits. I cast 500 gr. boolits for my 45/70 with a Lee Pro-4-20 and get excellent results, and believe me, I've done my share of dipper casting.

[onondaga]

There is a couple things you can do to maximize the diameter of your bullets short of cutting your molds or putting a spacer between the blocks. A higher tin percentage and hotter metal will get you as big as the mold will do. Don't go too far with the heat or the little tin you have will float up and oxidize, but if you are only getting shiny bullets and not frosty ones you could try to increase your heat and work speed a little to give you slightly frosted bullets. Between the frost, and a little more tin You could bring up the diameter of your bullets one or two thousands of an inch.

Mold modifying can be tricky business. If you wind up getting new molds, make it worth your while and slug the bore of the guns they are for to determine what molds will cast 2 to 3 thousands over. At my best I cast bullets that are over size and size them to what I want.

Gary

[RobS]

If they are new Lyman molds the small diameter has almost become a standard for Lyman lately as well as out of roundness. The length of your boolits shouldn't matter as the seating die, if it is doing its job right, will seat them to the same depth no matter how long they measure. If you are having differences in COAL then it has to be with the way the boolit is entering the seating die and how the die is pushing the boolit down into the case. If there is a crimp groove it will be very obvious as the brass won't line up.

Check to see if the boolits are out of round especially where the bullet matches up with the seating die. If the cavities are cut to different dimensions then it will be a problem that will make you tare your hair out.

[x101airborne]

i did not realize you were getting THAT much variance in length!!! Yup, definately got sumthin goin on. I will suggest this.. when you open your sprue plate, scribe a 1, 2,..... on the back of the boolits. After they cool, check to see if the variance is localized to a specific cavity. That may lock down the possibility of a bad cavity giving you the fits.

[44man]

27 below!!!! Electrons are freezing in the wire! :kidding:
The bottom pour is trying to suck UP, not down. ;)

[bigted]

thanks for the sugestions. this is the helpfull stuff ive come to expect here with everybody trying to help solve any problem. what a great site.

when the weather is more agreeable ill try the dip pot and the numbering of boolits to narrow down what is going on...ill also try getting things a little hotter and try the frosted boolits...and yes these are NEW moulds. ill go find some tin if this doesnt work and see if i can get the dia out to the 459 that i would like to see...wish they would drop at 460+ but i guess ill maybe have to take em to my smithy and see if he wont roach em out to what i want/need.

thanks again and keep em coming...this is great.

[bigted]

yahooooooo!!! got it!!

finally got a break in tha weather...only 9 below today so i went out and fired up the lyman dipper pot and fed it some of my ingots. got the 400gr mould out and also took the new rcbs 45-500 mould.got the dipper hot on top of the furnace as did the moulds.

i cast till my nose about fell off...just sitting still even at only 9 below is tough on exposed skin. but hey i chose to live here and no complaints. got some 25 good 500's from the new rcbs and cast 30 of the lyman 400's. filled the pot full and turned it off till next warmer day. went inside to weigh and meassure the new casts to see the diff of a dipper over the bottompour.

wowww guess my surprise at the more consistant weight going 526 +- 1.5gr for the 500's....and those hoodalums of the lyman 400's went 424rg +- 2gr.

impressed i drug out the calipers to see what the dia and the length was to be. i meassured the haunting 400's first and dia went to .4595 to .460...man i nearly did a backflip i was so happy. the length was within .0005 of each other thats 1/2 of a thousanths. this dipper just became my best friend i can tell you.

then i picked up the rcbs 500's to meassure. they also went .460 in diameter and the length of these looooong boolits are within .001 thats a thousanth of each other. man i can tell you that im a happy camper. and the frosted boolits seem to be slightly better then the shiney ones but not enough to throw em back.

next is the loading and shooting...cant wait and i can also size em as these boolits are large enough to put thru my .459 sizer. man im happy to get to this point with these formerly *** which now couldnt be pryed outta my hand for nuttin.

thanks for the hints and ill say this....dipper boolits in my opinion as of this time are the boss.

[RobS]

Glad you figured things out and it sure is nice when things come together. Let us know how the shooting goes.

[MtGun44]

Why would you cast in 9 deg temps? No basement or garage?

Bill

[bigted]

mtgun44,,, short answer is no and no and its 9 degrees BELOW zero. my 9 below zero casting couldnt have gone better. just gotta bundle up is all. i have grandbabies in and out of my cabin/home so NO CASTING INSIDE. no garage nor basement either as i have a hard enough time keeping my cabin warm in winter here in central alaska where the cold gets real cold. not sniveling at all as i love the cold weather...just gotta pick and choose what ya do in it is all. son and son-in-law are out hunting cariboo as i write this...on snowmobiles and the temp where they went is double digits below zero...just what your prepared for i guess.

loaded 5 of each tonite so will shoot them tomarrow. the 500's will be leaving my marlin at 1450 fps and the 400's will travel at 1700 fps. looking for the bear load and i think one of these will do the trick. i load most of my 400gr at around 1300fps for my regular shooting and paper punching...i like the black powder velocitys but not the fuss and yes i gave it a try and kept at it till i was succesfull but still dont care for all the foo faraaa involved with it is all...id rather cast boolits with the time id involve in preparing black powder cartridges.

will report my shootability on these tomarrow.

[excess650]

I shot BPCRS since the early '90s and cast quite a few. 45-70 is where I started before adding a couple of 40s and 38-55s. My favorite ladle is an older Lyman with the spout drilled out to a larger diameter.

That Lyman 457643 may well be the most accurate, plainbase 400ish bullet design available. It appears to have been designed for LAs, but was extremely accurate in my Sharps with BP. I shot it all the way to 500m, but felt it was at its best out to 385m.

I suspect that if you were in much warmer conditions your bullet weght consistency would improve dramatically. Its +20*F here, and I don't want to cast in my unheated garage!

[bigted]

well i shot these cast greezers with lyman "super moly" for lube. first off for the loads.

the 400's loaded with 49gr of 3031 pop and push with authority when exiting the barrel of my short marlin at 1700fps. these rounds would take anything walking up here i believe. they are not the most fun ive had squeezing a trigger but tolerable to be sure.

the 500's loaded with 42gr of 3031on the other hand...while the actual weight of this rcbs is 525gr. they do a little more then pop at 1450 fps. when i squeeze the trigger on these the gun twists and raises . i definetly know ive touched off something when i trigger off one of these. i believe that if and when im in brownie country that this is what will be stoked inside the mag of my marlin. i dont think even a 1000 lbs grizz will stop this boolit. what a freight train.

now to the bummer of the storie. this lube that i used [ lyman super moly] is something else. this stuff is like tar mixed with clay. what a mess to handle and what a thing to have streaked inside the barrel. either i did something very wrong or this stuff is for something other then the ww i cast these boolits out of. what a drag. the last 4 inches of my barrel has this goop down inside the grooves and the top of the lands are shiney without streaks but wow what a mess in the grooves.

my toilet ring n lard n shortinin with just a dab of peanutoil makes much better lube then this stuff. at least it does its job without leaving such a mess. only drag about this mix is the toilet ring being not harmonious with black powder. but it works great with smokless and ill just continue to pan lube with it as before.

all in all i like what ive found with these dipper casters and cant wait for the next days that are warm and im off work so as to cast a bunch in both weights and more 400's as this going around 12 to 1300 fps is a real joy to shoot in my winchester hiwall. this is definetly a ton of fun.

thanks again for all the helpfull hints and advise ...i really apreciate it and this is now one happy dip casting camper.

[geargnasher]

42 grains of 3031 behind the Lyman 457125 is pretty stout in an 1874 Sharps, I imagine it got your attention in the Marlin! I'm late to the party, but ladle pouring is the way to go with the bigger boolits, I like to pressure cast and hold the spout in the hole for two-three seconds before making the sprue puddle, makes really nice bases. As for lube, have you tried making or buying Bullshop's Speed Green? Dan and his family uses it in temps like you're experiencing with good results. It might get to 17* here on a really cold night, maybe four times a year, so what I worry about is my lube turning to goose chit in the Summer heat. If it's below 50* I stay inside.

Gear

[excess650]

Lyman Super Moly is reputed to be Lyman's BP lube with moly added. Lyman's BP lube was Paul Matthews' concoction of beeswax, neatsfoot oil and Murphy's oil soap. The beeswax is melted, oil added, and soap added last as it causes saponification(mixture boils aggressively). It effectively becomes a "soap" and can't be remelted for pan lubing. I tried my own batch back in the late '90s, but didn't care for it as it didn't leave BP fouling as soft as I was desiring. I've read of folks having success with Super Moly with smokeless, but hadn't tried it.

Paul Matthews and Ron Snover had a connection to Lyman, Ed Schmidt as I recall, so you had the Snover bullet (40cal) the Schmittzer (40 and 45cal) and Paul's lube produced commercially.

Your heavy bullet load should exit a moose even when shot lenghtwise. Even the NOE gas check 460-350 and 460-425 should be enough bullet for bears when stoked with smokeless.

Here is some food for thought. My experience with 3031 in the 45-70 with 405gr jacketed mirrored that of Paul Matthews as noted in "Forty Years with the 45-70". When freshly loaded, heavy 3031 loads shot accurately, but after a year, they didn't group worth a hoot. I use AA2015 or H322 for more serious loadings.

[bigted]

Cool ill try some 322 the next time. I just did 25gr of 4227 and what a nice load un der the rcbs 500. Ill. Give the 322 a try next

[bigted]

here is an update to shooting these boolits with the lyman super moly.

i loaded 5 with the "super moly" coated rcbs 500's with 25gr of 4227. i shot them from my hiwall this time instead of the marlin {new recently being a SBL model with the 20inch barrel and full length mag tube and a pistol grip and a snazzy large loop lever that is nice on my large style hands}. after shooting these sweethearts...i took my precious hiwall inside expecting to see the goopy mess and walla...no mess...instead all i found was a few gr of burned powder left inside the super shiney barrel.

so this leads me to think that maybe...just maybe the crud i observed inside my barrel of the marlin was there from a rough barrel so my next step will be to examine the barrel a little closer and try to discover why the mess is being left behind and exactly what this smeary mess is...i just jumped to the conclusion it was the lube...maybe not as the hiwall after shoving an oily patch thru it and a couple clean ones is just as shiney as it always has been...this rifle has me spoiled i think with its accurate and pretty shiney barrel that has come to me in this order and me doing nothing but shoot it........my ped 74 sharps has been the same for me in a shiney and accurate barreled rifle as well ,,,so maybe this marlin will be just my turn in the sack with an obstinate rifle. this gun shoots those heavy bucking loads very nicely tho so im gonna find out what the heck is going on with it.

until then i will be very happy with this new load to me of the 25gr of imr4227. this is a mild load and i think it will be very accurate with all those barrel hugging bands and the tons of lube they carry. i really like these rcbs boolits in function and looks from a loaded standpoint. this hiwall has the lands very close to the first driving band so in this rifle i bet they will be the cats meow. now all i want is to discover what the prob is with this marlin as id like to load the heavy hitters for it and use it as a boat or 4-wheeler gun where the going is brushy and rough and mostly close range all the time. should be purrfect for this kinda hunting.

[63 Shiloh]

Glad to hear it all worked out for you bigted, I also found the 500gn boolit filled out better using a dipper. I don't know why, just one of those things.

But, -27!!!!!!!!! Bloody hell, if I was ever exposed to that weather, I imagine I would just fall dead on the spot mate.

Thumbs up for your dedication.


Mike

[excess650]

Clean the Marlin and try that same 25gr 4227 load. See if it has the same result as your 3031 loads, or if it is cleaner. Be sure to try and duplicate the test as you did with the hiwall. If the hiwall was warm prior to firing, Make sure the Marlin is as well.

[bigted]

excess,,, thanks and i plan to do this very thing as this 4227 load is sweeeeet to say the least. i need to do something about the marlin as looking down the barrel i see that the lands are rough with not finished smooth metal so maybe ill have to clean her up sparkling clean and continue the "breakin with j words. i will try your suggestion tho with the marlin before i give her over to the "j's" for a workin over. that is a long and tedious job with the cleaning after each shot for so many shots but it smooths em up and if no brass gets "ironed" into the steel then the smooth finish is there to stay...been there a time or two on a couple bolt guns i have.