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Jack Stanley
12-11-2010, 09:15 PM
............... then don't ask the question . Sitting here pondering the misconceptions about lead , cartridges and shooting in general . Some time back , I was going on an elk hunting trip to another state that required a "Hunting safety certificate" that I didn't have . So , I signed up for a local class so I could be made safe .

The first day was rather interesting , I was the second oldest one in the bunch . The honor of being the oldest was the instructor who as it turned out was one of the co-authors of several shooting wives tales . I had already decided to try and keep my mouth shut using the thinking I'm here to learn something and two ears were better than one mouth . All was well untill he tossed out the question to his rapt pre-teen audience , " What caliber is a twelve gauge ? " . The dear old soul just left the question hang there floating amonst the children who didn't even know what a caliber was . Since it just so happened that I had been working on loading round balls in plastic hulls for a while and knew the inside diameter of two of my guns , I answered him . "Sir" , say I from the back of the room , "Yes?" sez he from his place of wisdom . " That would be seven hundred and twenty-nine thousanths give or take a couple of thousanths " . I was rather surprised at his response "WRONG!!!" sez he with enough force to expell juice from the plug he was working . I really felt bad for the kids sitting in the front row who got part of the spray . He went on to show his wisdom to his little faithfull flock and I thought to myself ..... Really ?

Next day , I came just a bit early for class to speak with him and asked him if he remembered his question . As soon as he said yes I pulled out a small bag and dropped it on the table in front of him . As it thumped with more force than he expected he jumped just a tad and said "what's this ?" ..... "sir , those are the twelve gauge balls that just so happen to measure seven hundred and twenty-nine thousanths " I forget what he started to blather but he lost interest in the round ball rather quickly and was amazed at how someone could make a half a bullet ... longways . The next part was priceless to me , he picked up a swaged bullet I'd made for my six millimeter Remington using a fired twenty-two rimfire case . He turned it around and looking at the base of it , he dropped it , his eyes got wide and he started backing away from the table all at the same time . With a calm level voice I asked if there was something wrong to which he replied with almost a voice of panic " Somebody pushed the bullet down onto the powder charge ... it could blow up !!!"
:redneck:

What do ya do with a guy like that ? [smilie=f:

I did manage to not bust a gut laughing at him and he did change his manors in class a bit ... by leaving me alone . I did get the "certificate" and an experience that I don't think I'll ever shake . Those poor children though , now it's clear why public schools are what they are .

Jack

btroj
12-11-2010, 09:23 PM
What do you do with a guy like that? Can't say that I know.

I do, however, know what you don't do with a guy like that. Don't hunt with him. don't shoot with him. I don't think I would even FISH with him.

Too many people out there that think they have all the answers. I am happy to say that I am aware of a few of the answers but actually don't know very many of them. That is why I am continuing to LEARN. Maybe if everyone did that the world would be a better place.

But in his defense, I am sure he got his information from the two most reliable sources know today- TV and the internet. Thanks Al Gore, you made it possible for any idiot to become an expert idiot. Wow.

outdoorfan
12-11-2010, 09:57 PM
But in his defense, I am sure he got his information from the two most reliable sources know today- TV and the internet. Thanks Al Gore, you made it possible for any idiot to become an expert idiot. Wow.


The internet is a far more reliable source of the truth than mainstream media. Of course, there's junk too; but there's no reason to lump the internet in with the TV in your mini rant.

Plus, the internet is the reason many of us newbies (when it comes to cast) advance in our boolit making and shooting techniques much faster than we ever could on our own.

btroj
12-11-2010, 10:09 PM
Sorry if I offended you outdoor fan. Did not intend it that way but the internet is also a hotspur of bad info. Worse yet, too many people take everything they see online, either web or email, and take it as gospel.
I have no problem with the net as a source of information BUY verify the info you get. Verify the accuracy of the source. And then still take a second and think to yourself- does this sound reasomabe or rational?
I have a sneaking suspicion that for every valid source of info on the web there are an equal number or questionable, if not dangerous, sources of shooting related info.

I tend towards the cautious side. As a practicing pharmacist I see too many " medical" experts online who are, in my opinion, dangerous.

Verify, verify, verify. In the end it is your choice. But it is also your life.

Brad

Jack Stanley
12-11-2010, 10:48 PM
Even though it was a time before computers became readily available , I don't think this guy would have needed a computer , he already "knew" it all . There are places on the internet that actually do have factual information . It is up to us padawan learners to use our mind to determine what is hot air or hot lead .

Speaking of hot air and the guy you wouldn't even fish with ............ I can remember another guy that had all the answers . Driving past one of the many frozen lakes that are found here in january . He says to me matter of factly , " The reason celotex has gone up so much in price is because the lumber companies see guys using it for their fishing shanties !"

What do ya do with a guy like that ?[smilie=f:

Tell ya what I did ...... Once I realized he had all the answers , I figured he was a ticking time bomb for something stupid to happen and I got away . Stopped hunting , fishing , shooting , casting , or being with him at all . It's amazing how much knowledge there is in the world without him blocking it :smile:

I am sooooooo thankful for the guys here that not only know how to pour water out of a boot without instructions . They can show and tell ya how to make the boot without getting horned by the bull that is wearing the yet to be made boots on his side .

Now , I think I'll go load up my bull killin' rifle :bootgive:

Jack

btroj
12-12-2010, 12:06 AM
Wow, Celotex prices went up due to ice fishing. I suppose global warming will fix that.

MakeMineA10mm
12-12-2010, 12:58 AM
What do ya do with a guy like that ? [smilie=f:

Jack

Jack,
I'm a hunter safety instructor in my state, and the instructors are coordinated by someone. In my state, it's the Dept. of Natural Resources. It may take a little work looking around on the internet, but you should report this guy to the state coordinator of training (or someone with a similar title). They need to put a secret observer in his class to see how well he follows the curriculum, and if he's just in there telling war stories, getting a big ego head-swelling, they'll can him.

In my state, there is a very specific curriculum and there is no humor or lee-way in teaching it. In fact, there is one very minor inaccuracy in the book, but we still teach it (with a comment to the class that nobody's perfect, including the DNR), because we lose our certification if we don't follow the curriculum exactly...

Different states have different criteria or strictness, I'm sure, but this should get you started.

nanuk
12-12-2010, 02:39 AM
I almost failed my firearm safety class because during my practical test, I questioned the instructor's comment about laying my gun on the ground to cross a fence, then picking it up, and checking IN the muzzle (of the loaded gun) for bore obstructions, like mud, or a bug!

I says I NEVER look IN a muzzle of a loaded gun. and no bugs and mud can get in mine as I tape my barrels.. his eyes almost popped out!

he says Taping the barrel WILL raise pressures and cause a catastrophic failure.

I think it was my laughing that caused him to think about failing me. I guess I was ok on all the other areas that he felt he'd let the "Barrel Tape" slide

waksupi
12-12-2010, 03:06 AM
I saw something similar a few years ago with a firearms agent in Canada.
I live close enough to the border, I would cross for competition shooting, and varmint shooting, so it seemed a good idea to get a PAL for easier border crossings.
I drove up to Elk River during a miserable snow storm, and arrived at the test facility, that happened to be the inspectors residence.
There is a written test that you take, that must have been written by either a bureaucrat with absolutely no knowledge of firearms, or a 4th grader who had seen a gun at some vague time in his past.
Anyway, I took the test, scored a 98% on it, then decided I would also test for the restricted license, and scored 96% on that one. On a side note, I argued about the supposed missed questions on both tests, and received deer in headlights response.
We then proceeded to another room for firearms handling testing. In the room, was a table in the front of the room, with about ten firearms leaned against the front edge. I darn near left the room at that point.
Anyway, he goes behind the table, and starts explaining the most basic things about firearms, and then leans on the table.
The guns began to lean immediately, ending up in a mass of rifles and shotguns in a pile. By this time, I was ready to run for my life.
I helped him gather them up, and when he started leaning them on the table again, I suggested we lay them ON the table. That seemed to work.
As we went through the last grueling and ridiculous part of the test, it ended up with me teaching him, instead of him testing me.
No wonder Canadian firearms laws are such a mess. I shoot with many Canadian shooters that are extremely safe and knowledgeable about firearms, yet the government had a train wreck like this in a fairly important (to them) position.

oldhickory
12-12-2010, 09:57 AM
Game wardens too.

One fall day when pheasent hunting was still good here a Deputy Game Warden stopped us in the field on a rutine check, (licences, guns, etc). He took a quick look at our backs and tags, ask if we had any luck, then proceded to check our firearms. The first fellow in our group had a Remington 870 which he un-loaded on rquest, handed it to the Warden along with the shells. The Warden loaded it, (safely) and tried to load a 4th round, it wouldn't go in and he handed the gun back to my friend-No problem.

He simply glanced at my gun, (an Ithica 37) and commented, "Nice over and under." The third fellow had a single shot and he didn't bother with him either, just wished us luck and walked away. We didn't comment or correct the guy, we just shook our heads.

dsmjon
12-12-2010, 10:06 AM
You guys have it all wrong. These are in fact the type of people that you SHOULD take fishing. Just don't bring 'em back! :D





Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

theperfessor
12-12-2010, 11:56 AM
My wife is an adjunct instructor at a local college and is teaching a basic literacy course. One of the areas covered is critical thinking; an exercise given the class was to evaluate the quality of information on various websites. Over half the students thought the Consumers Report website was an appliance sales business. They had never even read the information on the site stating the purpose, goals, and function of the organization. One student even slammed the site for not having a "shopping cart" for purchases!

Yes, the Internet is a great source of information, and this site is one of the best examples of that. But it's also a great source of misinformation, made worse by the lack of critical analysis by dumb***es.

btroj
12-12-2010, 12:21 PM
Critical thinking is a dying art in this country. Schools don't teach it. Parents don't want it.
We live in an age where people expect to be told what to believe and they then take that as fact. Why look at it critically? Why would anyone have an agenda? Why would they lie? If they aren't an expert why would they say they are?
If this country needs anything it is critical thinking. YOU are responsible for your beliefs. Don't take them lightly. Always question. This is the core of our being. And too many are rotten at the core. Sad.

44man
12-12-2010, 12:42 PM
Hey, I think hard about what my guns need to not only be accurate but to also kill deer the best they can. Funny how even fellas here question and dispute every single thing! :groner:

Jim
12-12-2010, 12:55 PM
44,
You can question with intent to learn or question with intent to challenge. Challenging only makes the other guy go to defense mode. Questioning with intent to learn usually gets a much better response.
I figure, if I tell you "prove it", you'll get defensive, but if I ask you "teach me", you'll pour your heart out .
What's that old adage about catching flies?:-)

geargnasher
12-12-2010, 01:02 PM
Critical thinking is a dying art in this country. Schools don't teach it. Parents don't want it.
We live in an age where people expect to be told what to believe and they then take that as fact. Why look at it critically? Why would anyone have an agenda? Why would they lie? If they aren't an expert why would they say they are?
If this country needs anything it is critical thinking. YOU are responsible for your beliefs. Don't take them lightly. Always question. This is the core of our being. And too many are rotten at the core. Sad.

Good points. However, young minds are bent into contortion when they are told to take religious beliefs on faith, but to be absolutely critical of anything else. This fundamental conflict is enough gridlock even the most moral mind.

Gear

JDFuchs
12-12-2010, 01:17 PM
I wish I could say to myself that a story like this cant be true. But Ive seen enough to sadly believe it happened.

340six
12-12-2010, 01:57 PM
The Best chuckle i had today Thanks for posting

grubbylabs
12-12-2010, 02:25 PM
In our state the hunter ed instructores are volunteers so you get what you pay for. I do Archery and I like teaching the class. But I always tell them two things, I am not an expert so if you know something and you think I am wrong say something, lets all learn, second I am not here to teach you to hunt, hell I can barely do that my self. but I can teach you how to be safe with a bow and give you some advise on how to maintain your gear so that it works and functions safely.

I also cover the archery rules but I make it clear that I am not a paid expert, and that the odds are good that there may be someone in the crowed that knows more than me.

sleeper1428
12-12-2010, 03:04 PM
Critical thinking is a dying art in this country. Schools don't teach it. Parents don't want it.
We live in an age where people expect to be told what to believe and they then take that as fact. Why look at it critically? Why would anyone have an agenda? Why would they lie? If they aren't an expert why would they say they are?
If this country needs anything it is critical thinking. YOU are responsible for your beliefs. Don't take them lightly. Always question. This is the core of our being. And too many are rotten at the core. Sad.

You are so right about critical thinking being a dying art. The main reason for this can be found in how today's students are being taught and who is teaching them. The vast majority of today's teachers at all levels are members of the NEA (National Education Association) and the NEA has long been openly supportive of Liberalism. By their own admission, 90+% of ALL college level teachers view themselves as Liberals. In order for students to learn the principles and practice of critical thinking, their teachers must be willing and able to provide a true and accurate picture of BOTH all sides of any given situation and be willing and able to challenge their students to make critical judgments based on unbiased information. The sources from which students may obtain this information should be presented along with an insistence that each student seek out additional sources on their own and critically evaluate each of these sources as to its credibility.

Obviously, when your own thinking is biased to the extent that most of today's teachers exhibit, it is virtually impossible for them to accurately portray and/or present any viewpoint other than their own and this viewpoint is almost always from the Left. Therefore their students, who have only rarely been given the option to do any critical thinking, will, as they go out into the world, only naturally accept what is presented to them, never even considering or questioning the validity of the presented material.

I saw this occur in person when I took the required class in order to obtain my Concealed Carry License. The instructor, an older gentleman - at least older than everyone else in the room except for me - stated that a pistol should only be carried with the slide closed on an empty chamber. The room filled with a majority of youngsters in their 20s to mid 30s, took this as if it were gospel and you could have heard a pin drop when I raised my hand and asked if there were any other valid ways to carry concealed, ways such as 'cocked and locked' or 'loaded and in decocked condition'. The instructor appeared flustered and then grudgingly admitted that the methods I'd mentioned were indeed valid but my point in mentioning this incident was that had I not spoken up, this entire group would have left that one time class thinking that the only condition in which they could ever carry a concealed weapon was with the chamber empty. Not one of these young people even considered questioning the instructor! As you stated, they had be taught to accept without question whatever an instructor said, never even once considering that there might be another side to this story.

At the ripe old age of 72, I'm so thankful that when I was in school our teachers challenged us to think for ourselves and in fact insisted that we always explore all sides of any given situation before coming to any conclusion. That's the sort of educational environment that encourages the development of critical thinking but unfortunately that's the sort of thinking that's discouraged today. So sad ....

sleeper1428

MakeMineA10mm
12-12-2010, 03:41 PM
In our state the hunter ed instructores are volunteers so you get what you pay for. I do Archery and I like teaching the class. But I always tell them two things, I am not an expert so if you know something and you think I am wrong say something, lets all learn, second I am not here to teach you to hunt, hell I can barely do that my self. but I can teach you how to be safe with a bow and give you some advise on how to maintain your gear so that it works and functions safely.

I also cover the archery rules but I make it clear that I am not a paid expert, and that the odds are good that there may be someone in the crowed that knows more than me.

You sound just like the guys I teach with, all of whom I respect a great deal for their attitude. None of us are right 100% of the time, and it seems when you're teaching the percentage gets lower, if you haven't prepared very well. But the guy the OP was talking about sounds like one of the self-declared experts.

Jack Stanley
12-12-2010, 04:35 PM
Y'know .... I remember taking a CCW class before my state had the must issue thing . Possibly the bookwork I could have found something to be critical of I don't remember . What I do remember was when the instructor demonstrated on the range how we were to fire upon the target . A standard police target with the oval in the center "X" , five , four rings and I'm sure you know the rest . At that time , I'd been shooting bullseye for a little while but I was aware of other styles and enjoyed the one PPC match I'd gone to ( another story in itself ) This guy just looked like an IPSC shooter and I'm not sure what it was , I'd only watch one match like that to see what it was ..... enjoyed myself there too ! He lined up on the target , drew and emptied a magazine into the target reloaded and did it again . I remember watching him from slightly beside and saw he was using the sights . What I found odd was he had shots all over the edge of the four ring ..... at seven yards , a couple fives but not an impressive group .

My turn later along , only thing I had was a four inch model twenty-nine with a to big "Uncle Mike's " holster and a loose HKS speedloader I kept in my back pocket . Ammo was reloads I'd been using on the range to play the week before , two hundred forty grain Semi-wadcutters at nine-fifty . I wasn't expecting applause from the "gallery" or nothing but I did keep most of mine in the center with only a couple slung out to the edge of the five ring and I didn't use the sights . I was a couple secends slower in time though maybe that's why he wasn't inpressed a double action revolver just spanked him in front of the class .


It's things like Waksupi mentioned that tends to keep me from getting a carry license . I could tell ya about the game warden and my little brothers 1919A4 but I'll save that for another time . I'm enjoying reading the things you guys have suffered through ...... not that I'm enjoying that you went through it mind you .

Jack

Centaur 1
12-12-2010, 04:38 PM
Unless I missed it you never did tell us what caliber a twelve gauge is if it's not .729?

bootsnthejeep
12-12-2010, 05:15 PM
http://www.snopes.com/humor/letters/hilliker.asp

Not confirmed as legit, but par for the course from what I've seen in schools today and in my own experience in the past.

nes4ever69
12-12-2010, 08:17 PM
http://www.snopes.com/humor/letters/hilliker.asp

Not confirmed as legit, but par for the course from what I've seen in schools today and in my own experience in the past.

Ill say this one on some teachers, when I was in high school, one class the teacher asked if any one knew were Norad was located. I raised my hand, pointed out the window and said right there by Ft. Carson.

The teacher told me I was wrong and Norad was located in Denver. I told him no, my uncle is in the navy, drives through Ft. Carson to get to Norad, look at the mountain with the antenna's on it, thats Norad. All the other students were shocked that some one would call out a teacher and tell them they were wrong.

Cadillo
12-13-2010, 01:19 AM
44,
You can question with intent to learn or question with intent to challenge. Challenging only makes the other guy go to defense mode. Questioning with intent to learn usually gets a much better response.
I figure, if I tell you "prove it", you'll get defensive, but if I ask you "teach me", you'll pour your heart out .
What's that old adage about catching flies?:-)

The problem with that is that there are far too many who are teaching concepts that are WRONG, either because they have an AGENDA, or are just ignorant and repeating what they were told to convey. Those people need to be challenged for the sake of the SHEEPLE who fall, or march to being their victims.

Bret4207
12-13-2010, 07:43 AM
Hey, I think hard about what my guns need to not only be accurate but to also kill deer the best they can. Funny how even fellas here question and dispute every single thing! :groner:

There's a difference between "telling" everyone what works and offering for reveiw a way that works for you. Using ambiguous terms and parsing your thoughts as absolutes will always results in a "lively" discussion.

Jim
12-13-2010, 09:46 AM
5X there, Bret!

akajun
12-13-2010, 10:07 AM
Ill do you one better, As an LEO, I often am required to attend "Departmental Training" which is codeword for some ******* that never did anything that meant anything during his career that read something on the net and decided to teach a class on it. During a re trainer on defensive tactics, From a 300lb do nothing wimp, he decided to give us a lecture on firearms and officer safety. To give you a little background on this guy, When he was a patrolman and not a sgt, He would routinely drive slowly to hot calls so that someone else would handle them, or if he had charges on a call and both parties there, he would not make an arrest and refer them to the Detectives.
He began with how anyone can buy guns and machineguns on the internet and get them shipped to their home, how "cop killer bullets" can go through your vest, and that the department was messing up by giving us "cop killer bullets" for our guns because they will go through our vests and most officers are killed by their own guns. We're issued gold dots in the appropriate caliber btw, I guess he thinks hollow points are "cop Killers"
I had enough, probably didnt help that I had past history with his idiocy but I, a lowly patrollman called him out saying "your wrong" and began to correct him one by one. He got mad and tried to argue but I was able to pull up references on my laptop one by one. My LT. thought it was hillarious, but told me later that ding dong called him and told him that he was going to write a letter on me for insubordination. My LT basically told him that I was not insubordinate, that I was correcting his bad information, and that I took all of 5 minutes to embarass him before in front of his peers, did he really want to put it in writing and give me days or weeks to do so in front of the Chief? The letter never came.

Bwana
12-13-2010, 10:28 AM
Yes, the world is full of small-minded people. And because they are willing to be subservient to other small-minded people they manage to attain positions of power.
It is a constant struggle to deal with these people and yet struggle we must if we want to maintain any form of a civilized society where truth is available. Notice I didn't say that truth always wins, just that it is available for those looking for it.

MT Gianni
12-13-2010, 11:24 AM
It is an attitude prevalant in many areas. I remember being dumb-founded when a former boss was asking us in a training session how much a cubic yard of dirt weighed. My buddy answers "a ton and a half". Boss says close- it's 3000 lbs.

Jack Stanley
12-13-2010, 03:17 PM
Unless I missed it you never did tell us what caliber a twelve gauge is if it's not .729?

That's it , I was trying to point out to the "teacher" that a twelve gauge had a caliber whether he wanted to recognize it or not . The bores of the two guns I was working with measured seven hundred twenty-nine thousanths .

Y'know , I just checked snopes for the caliber of a twelve gauge and I think they laughed at me :?

Jack

Cadillo
12-13-2010, 10:18 PM
It is an attitude prevalant in many areas. I remember being dumb-founded when a former boss was asking us in a training session how much a cubic yard of dirt weighed. My buddy answers "a ton and a half". Boss says close- it's 3000 lbs.

Maybe the guy is accustomed to the metric system and was thinking in terms of metric tons. :kidding:

x101airborne
12-14-2010, 01:15 PM
You guys have it all wrong. These are in fact the type of people that you SHOULD take fishing. Just don't bring 'em back! :D





Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Every fisherman needs SOME bait.. Even trout fishermen need "flies"

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
12-14-2010, 01:24 PM
Then there is the story my father told (born in 1894) about the school which couldn't keep a teacher.

Seems that some of the older students, probably ones who spent half the year farming, would complain to their parents about the teacher attempting to "teach" them something, and being as how some of those same parents were school board members, those parents would go to the school and fire the teacher.

Well after this happened a number of times, a newly hired teacher got wind of the problem and came prepared with a couple of revolvers as part of his instructional equipment.

Following the same pattern as before, the parents/school board members showed up one school day to fire the teacher, at which point he pulled out the revolvers and laid them on the desk before proceeding to set the record straight as to just what he was there for.

Seems like a bit more of that type of motovational instruction employed over the last 75 years of so, might well have prevented a lot of the current bone heads from coming to positions of power and leadership.

Just an Ol'Coot's opinion.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot